Obvious question from a SMT first timer here, but are there any patterns to learn for demon negotiation beyond kind of guessing what the demon wants to hear? I know full moon is the best time to recruit them. Feels like there's nothing to learn about negotiating which feels kinda bad.
Nah, they're demons, they're random and they live to fuck with you.
Often times if you fail once and get the same conversation again with the same demon, you can try a different option and have a better chance at it being the "right" one, but it's not guaranteed. The same species can give two different answers to the same question.
Full and New Moon are both high risk/high reward times to recruit in this game. I'm not sure what determines whether a demon likes full or new moon vs being intractable during it. The best time is actually 5, 6, or 7 if they like full moon, or 3, 2, 1 if they like new, because it puts them in a good mood without the risk of them instantly shutting you down.
There's a Miracle some ways into the game that makes negotiating easier because it randomly triggers sometimes to "forgive" a bad answer.
Honestly, I wasn't talking about Nocturne's writing specifically (just its cinematography and choreography), but I'll make the comparison because it's easy and why not.
Again, not finished V yet, but one of Nocturne's biggest strengths is its outstanding coherence. Nothing really feels out of place, mismatched, or has awkward switches in tone. You could argue it's a bit too minimalist in some respects but what's there is at least consistent.
V has all problems in all of these areas.
Tao's revival and position as a goddess, so far, seems entirely out of place and doesn't seem to have any relevance to anything larger going on. Bethel likes her but you could have deleted her from the plot and it would have required extremely minimal changes to anything going on on the larger scale with Bethel and the throne.
Sahori's whole story has far too little time spent on it for the level of emotional resonance you should feel for someone that was physically abused into becoming desperate and becoming corrupted by a demon as a result. Her death cutscene is incredibly cheesy instead of disturbing until it suddenly becomes super melancholy.
The way you suddenly go back to normal Tokyo after Minato is a wild switch in tone that feels incredibly deflating in the moment. The fact that "normal" Tokyo even exists to go back to makes the whole thing feel weirdly removed from the series' usual oppressive and world-ending stakes, even if they're technically there. In terms of framing, plot literally shunts them into the background where "normal" people can't see them for the most part.
Some of the plot points seem extremely contrived. The demons specifically targeting the protagonist's school hasn't been explained yet and feels like it's just been forgotten, but maybe it will come back. Yuzuru and Dazai just happening to have Tsukoyomi and Abdiel's specific Knowledge is ridiculous. There are seven billion people on Earth at the time this game takes place. This could have been avoided by saying the Knowledge is dilute through humanity and they just had to find someone that had a trace of theirs and that whole issue would have been avoided. It would have taken like two or three lines.
The prime minister of Japan meeting these three kids specifically, alone, and not with the higher ranks of Bethel Japan that allegedly exist is just terrible YA style writing that's been creeping into the series since IV. They're kids. Even with the protagonist's unique status, the update about the current status of Bethel Japan and next steps felt like something that should have been in a proper meeting room with the kids off to the side looking intimidated by the whole affair.
Thus far, Dazai is the best-developed character by a huge margin and a shockingly good example of someone naturally being drawn to Law.
The demons attack the school specifically because they're led by Lahmu and he's looking for Sahori to get his knowledge, they did explain that I'm pretty sure, or do you mean something else?
Least favorite part for me the whole bullying thing, felt so hammy and superficial. Like this revenge on bullies thing feels a little out of place in SMT but I excuse it as the introduction to Nahobino-ness.
And yeah Ichiro is the standout for me, he just gets more screentime than Yuzuru too who is totally one note so I don't get why he doesn't have like a similar journey, he feels pretty static.
And can I just say the 'high schoolers are secret agents' trope is so awful to me, cannot ever take it seriously.
You can summon any demon back from the compendium, they're registered automatically when you recruit or fuse them. Or you can go back to the area you first recruited her and look for her again.
Honestly, that there is less of it. For me at least, that's a huge strength of Nocturne. I know others see it as a negative but the plot, the exposition, the cutscenes are so condensed but don't really leave you wanting more, in a good way (ish).
'Oh Isamu and Chiaki are barely there', did anyone really want to hear more from them, seriously? All the reason holders explain themselves very clearly, there's really not much more to be said.
Here, multiple times I was thinking 'cut to the chase please'.
Jimenez I feel like he didn't descend that much from where he originally starts, he was like halfway there already imo. Zelenin really is the standard, she starts as a literal woman of science and her journey to where she ends up is so long and believable, you see all of it. So well done, I'm always singing her praises!
Well, I sure had a long day but I finally have my copy and started playing as soon as I could!
I'm very early but wow, Da'at definitely is a Vortex World like I thought. I can't believe they even took things as far as calling Aogami a proto-fiend. This is gonna be exciting. I get why they were so evasive about the plot if they're dropping stuff like this so early.
Honestly, that there is less of it. For me at least, that's a huge strength of Nocturne. I know others see it as a negative but the plot, the exposition, the cutscenes are so condensed but don't really leave you wanting more, in a good way (ish).
'Oh Isamu and Chiaki are barely there', did anyone really want to hear more from them, seriously? All the reason holders explain themselves very clearly, there's really not much more to be said.
Here, multiple times I was thinking 'cut to the chase please'.
I haven't finished Nocturne so maybe I shouldn't talk but I both agree and disagree. I agree that Nocturne wouldn't be a better game if they had spent more time with the characters and spent unnecessary time fleshing them out. That said, i do find how Chiaki and Isamu come to their reasons as a little contrived. I think in particular Chiaki deciding to embrace a philosophy of the strong ruling does not make much sense when she is a teenage girl in a world of demons. Why does she think she is physically strong enough to survive let alone thrive? She can come up with any Reason or philosophy she wants and that's what she goes with?
This is a nitpick and I accept that it's like that because if they gave the human characters more moderate worldviews or Reasons then making your decision on which one to go with wouldn't feel as important or impactful. But still, it's just one of those things where I accept it rather than like it.
I've had a couple of replies that I wrote up huge draft comments to (before deleting because they would come off rude), but I hate the response just being 'actually, 3 and 4 were bad too' instead of explaining why a particular criticism of this one isn't valid (this isn't really aimed at you in particular btw).
Re: Nocturne, that game was a lot more abstract and could pull off hazy dream/nightmare logic, while here they're very direct about things they absolutely have not earned narratively.
I've had a couple of replies that I wrote up huge draft comments to (before deleting because they would come off rude), but I hate the response just being 'actually, 3 and 4 were bad too' instead of explaining why a particular criticism of this one isn't valid (this isn't really aimed at you in particular btw).
Re: Nocturne, that game was a lot more abstract and could pull off hazy dream/nightmare logic, while here they're very direct about things they absolutely have not earned narratively.
Even with the abstractness, Nocturne had some issues. But other than that I agree with your point and Atlus should just hire a proven guest writer for the next game.
The demons attack the school specifically because they're led by Lahmu and he's looking for Sahori to get his knowledge, they did explain that I'm pretty sure, or do you mean something else?
Least favorite part for me the whole bullying thing, felt so hammy and superficial. Like this revenge on bullies thing feels a little out of place in SMT but I excuse it as the introduction to Nahobino-ness.
And yeah Ichiro is the standout for me, he just gets more screentime than Yuzuru too who is totally one note so I don't get why he doesn't have like a similar journey, he feels pretty static.
And can I just say the 'high schoolers are secret agents' trope is so awful to me, cannot ever take it seriously.
That solves the problem of the demons attacking the school, but it still leaves the issue of all this stuff being contrived as hell. Tsukoyomi, Susano-o, Lahmu, and Abdiel ALL have their Knowledge being held by four people in the same country, in the same city, in the same school. Bro, please. It's ridiculous. There's a cause and effect problem here. The demons all congregating there (because of Bethel, or some other event) should have been the cause of all the students having these specific Knowledge...es, and then it would have made perfect sense. Instead the students just all have them as a ridiculously contrived event of chance and it brings the demons to them instead.
High schoolers are secret agents trope is like the worst sort of trashy YA writing lol. I only give it a pass in Persona because they at least make an attempt to have it make sense!
Well, I sure had a long day but I finally have my copy and started playing as soon as I could!
I'm very early but wow, Da'at definitely is a Vortex World like I thought. I can't believe they even took things as far as calling Aogami a proto-fiend. This is gonna be exciting. I get why they were so evasive about the plot if they're dropping stuff like this so early.
I haven't finished Nocturne so maybe I shouldn't talk but I both agree and disagree. I agree that Nocturne wouldn't be a better game if they had spent more time with the characters and spent unnecessary time fleshing them out. That said, i do find how Chiaki and Isamu come to their reasons as a little contrived. I think in particular Chiaki deciding to embrace a philosophy of the strong ruling does not make much sense when she is a teenage girl in a world of demons. Why does she think she is physically strong enough to survive let alone thrive? She can come up with any Reason or philosophy she wants and that's what she goes with?
This is a nitpick and I accept that it's like that because if they gave the human characters more moderate worldviews or Reasons then making your decision on which one to go with wouldn't feel as important or impactful. But still, it's just one of those things where I accept it rather than like it.
Chiaki is a snobby rich girl that exists as a criticism of the type of person that was born rich and conflates this with their self worth, thinking they deserve it and it somehow makes them better than everyone else. Her thought process has less to do with actual strength (at least in the beginning) than self-righteousness. Isamu has a line that implies her wealth where he says it's hard to please someone of her upbringing. This is one example where it could have been a little more explicit than the one line lol. The rest you get from the scene in Ikebukuro where she talks about how "nothing new was being made" and "people were just wasting their lives" or however she phrases it. It's textbook judgy shit from someone removed from how the real world works.
I haven't finished Nocturne so maybe I shouldn't talk but I both agree and disagree. I agree that Nocturne wouldn't be a better game if they had spent more time with the characters and spent unnecessary time fleshing them out. That said, i do find how Chiaki and Isamu come to their reasons as a little contrived. I think in particular Chiaki deciding to embrace a philosophy of the strong ruling does not make much sense when she is a teenage girl in a world of demons. Why does she think she is physically strong enough to survive let alone thrive? She can come up with any Reason or philosophy she wants and that's what she goes with?
This is a nitpick and I accept that it's like that because if they gave the human characters more moderate worldviews or Reasons then making your decision on which one to go with wouldn't feel as important or impactful. But still, it's just one of those things where I accept it rather than like it.
You're focusing a bit much on the vortex world part of the equation. She wants to create that world for humans, for human society. Obviously she has to get through the demon wasteland first, she even says herself something like 'well now to figure out how to get a massive amount of magatsuhi' fully aware she's just a human in a world of demons, knowing she would basically have to be a living example of her reason and to her credit she did fight a psycho killer on her own, she has guts!
Isamu I can't defend even if I wanted to, he's totally ridiculous.
Chiaki is a snobby rich girl that exists as a criticism of the type of person that was born rich and conflates this with their self worth, thinking they deserve it and it somehow makes them better than everyone else. Her thought process has less to do with actual strength (at least in the beginning) than self-righteousness. Isamu has a line that implies her wealth where he says it's hard to please someone of her upbringing. This is one example where it could have been a little more explicit than the one line lol. The rest you get from the scene in Ikebukuro where she talks about how "nothing new was being made" and "people were just wasting their lives" or however she phrases it. It's textbook judgy shit from someone removed from how the real world works.
The problem I have is that in that very same scene she announces that she wants a world where the strong rule. Maybe this is a localization issue but this doesn't make any sense with who she is. Even if she is rich, privileged, and elitist, it still requires a massive leap in logic to jump to a "and that's why the strong will rule". Especially when it's a frail high school girl saying this.
Again, this is more because you have to give these characters really outlandish reasons so they have impact. But it still makes these characters a little contrived.
Yeah it's not that Chiaki thinks she's physically or combatively stronger than anyone else, it's that she believes she has the right to rule over others purely from her warped perspective on life imparted to her from her comfortable upbringing.
She's also analogous to a lot of right wing psychos who are praying for the day society breaks down and they can lead roving militia gangs. It's a hero complex.
Isamu is just textbook insecure and would rather have an existence where he doesn't have to be confronted or reminded of his own inadequacies. He's a gigantic pussy with a victim complex.
You're focusing a bit much on the vortex world part of the equation. She wants to create that world for humans, for human society. Obviously she has to get through the demon wasteland first, she even says herself something like 'well now to figure out how to get a massive amount of magatsuhi' fully aware she's just a human in a world of demons, knowing she would basically have to be a living example of her reason and to her credit she did fight a psycho killer on her own, she has guts!
Isamu I can't defend even if I wanted to, he's totally ridiculous.
Isamu thinks he's hot shit, gets his ass kicked all over the place, and no one ever relies on him, so he starts lionizing his pain and trauma as the inherent nature of man. No, it's fine, everyone should be completely solipsistic with no interactions, because interacting with other people didn't work out for me.
The problem I have is that in that very same scene she announces that she wants a world where the strong rule. Maybe this is a localization issue but this doesn't make any sense with who she is. Even if she is rich, privileged, and elitist, it still requires a massive leap in logic to jump to a "and that's why the strong will rule". Especially when it's a frail high school girl saying this.
Again, this is more because you have to give these characters really outlandish reasons so they have impact. But it still makes these characters a little contrived.
Well, I sure had a long day but I finally have my copy and started playing as soon as I could!
I'm very early but wow, Da'at definitely is a Vortex World like I thought. I can't believe they even took things as far as calling Aogami a proto-fiend. This is gonna be exciting. I get why they were so evasive about the plot if they're dropping stuff like this so early.
The problem I have is that in that very same scene she announces that she wants a world where the strong rule. Maybe this is a localization issue but this doesn't make any sense with who she is. Even if she is rich, privileged, and elitist, it still requires a massive leap in logic to jump to a "and that's why the strong will rule". Especially when it's a frail high school girl saying this.
Again, this is more because you have to give these characters really outlandish reasons so they have impact. But it still makes these characters a little contrived.
Yeah it's not that Chiaki thinks she's physically or combatively stronger than anyone else, it's that she believes she has the right to rule over others purely from her warped perspective on life imparted to her from her comfortable upbringing.
She's also analogous to a lot of right wing psychos who are praying for the day society breaks down and they can lead roving militia gangs. It's a hero complex.
Isamu is just textbook insecure and would rather have an existence where he doesn't have to be confronted or reminded of his own inadequacies. He's a gigantic pussy with a victim complex.
I think I'm gonna have to bail for the next couple weeks. I'm teetering on the edge of just spoiling the whole plot for myself.
Isamu thinks he's hot shit, gets his ass kicked all over the place, and no one ever relies on him, so he starts lionizing his pain and trauma as the inherent nature of man. No, it's fine, everyone should be completely solipsistic with no interactions, because interacting with other people didn't work out for me.
She was strong in the previous world; she was rich and could do whatever she wanted.
It's as simple as wanting her privileged lifestyle back and expanding it to to the rest of the world.
Yup to all of this. I realized a ways back that Isamu is basically a loser nerd that literally retreats into the demon Internet and I laughed my ass off.
Since we are on Nocturne talk can I just say I've been waiting for someone to upload a video where they defeat Demi Fiend here and it's still not happening lol.
Some have defeated him on safety (boo) and then use his OP Masakados essence to beat him in normal (boo) but no fair and square beating him on normal or hard. I can only find attempts.
Since we are on Nocturne talk can I just say I've been waiting for someone to upload a video where they defeat Demi Fiend here and it's still not happening lol.
Some have defeated him on safety (boo) and then use his OP Masakados essence to beat him in normal (boo) but no fair and square beating him on normal or hard. I can only find attempts.
Since we are on Nocturne talk can I just say I've been waiting for someone to upload a video where they defeat Demi Fiend here and it's still not happening lol.
Some have defeated him on safety (boo) and then use his OP Masakados essence to beat him in normal (boo) but no fair and square beating him on normal or hard. I can only find attempts.
Huh. Hopefully I'll be able to see the context for the fight (though not the victory lol) myself soon.
Unfortunately, ever since hitting area four, it's been constant one-shot KOs. Just fucking Titanomachia every god-damn-where. Orochi just fucked me up and left with with 17 HP in a single attack while I was guarding with full health. I've seen more game overs in the last half hour than the entire previous stretch of the game and this shit is all just normal encounters. 😂
After the umpteenth trip to the container yard area, I didn't notice the Thunderbird flying around the cranes! Is there a way to get close to it or is it another Seth situation?
Seeing these "big boi" demons in the distance (or up close in many cases) really hits harder here than in something like Xenoblade, probably because those of us that have played games in the franchise before can recognize these demons and have some attachment to them already.
Also the second area is fucking HUGE to the point I feel like it could almost be the entire map of one game. I can't wait to see how big and dense the areas after this are.
I'll probably have a more fully formed opinion on this when I finish the game, but SMTV is really a major departure for the series in a good way. One of the things SMT has historically been known for is the dungeon crawling, and this game doesn't have much of that, leaving the labyrinth aspects to dealing with the terrain in Da'at. This is a really cool idea and I am glad they tried something new like this. I'd also say this game feels more like a "survival" SMT than other games. Early on, I struggled as some points because I made the mistake of trying to pick fights with everything. Unless you have a good reason to, that's not how I think the game wants you play. You beat one demon out of a group you see on the field, that doesn't mean you should start swinging at the other demons of that same species. You generally either dodge entirely, or kill one and then sprint out during the time it takes between the battle ending and them to notice you.
I don't think this makes something like Nocturne's approach inferior or anything, it's just different and seeing something different that's this fun is cool!
While I don't think I am even halfway in, I think it's safe to say this is my GotY.
Since we are on Nocturne talk can I just say I've been waiting for someone to upload a video where they defeat Demi Fiend here and it's still not happening lol.
Some have defeated him on safety (boo) and then use his OP Masakados essence to beat him in normal (boo) but no fair and square beating him on normal or hard. I can only find attempts.
i'm currently fighting an optional boss, and it recovers half its health whenever it's even close to the final quarter of its health bar. i'm not sure how i'm supposed to deal with it other than by massively overlevelling for it.
edit: i just kept playing and eventually the boss used diahrama twice in a row and almost maxed out his health bar again. lol. ended up just quitting because it wasn't going anywhere.
I'm trying to get used to it I am but the further I go on the performance gets worse and like ugh this was $100 so I gotta keep going on but it really drags down the quality of the game right now
Oh god. I grinded a little bit, did a side quest, fused a new demon, and then accidentally took a wrong turn into a new boss fight that I knew was there, and then got my shit wrecked without saving first.
tbh dampeners feel like they're waaay too important on Hard. Kinda seems like the solution to every major boss fight is just to use a dampener or get slaughtered whenever the boss charges up. It's rather lame.
It's weird on hard, optional demons just feel like they have too much HP unless you're overleveled. I fused some good shit for a quest demon only to spend forever killing it even with abusing crits/weaknesses/debuffs. It gets monotonous. I'm not at the point where I can fuse some broken team comps yet so I hope it gets better.
Really feeling like money/exp is scarce in first two areas.
I found a kind of overpowered (relative to the rest) strategy in the second area and it made the game less interesting to play and bosses die pretty fast despite me being underleveled a few levels.
Oh god. I grinded a little bit, did a side quest, fused a new demon, and then accidentally took a wrong turn into a new boss fight that I knew was there, and then got my shit wrecked without saving first.
tbh dampeners feel like they're waaay too important on Hard. Kinda seems like the solution to every major boss fight is just to use a dampener or get slaughtered whenever the boss charges up. It's rather lame.
And yeah, I think unfortunately the encounter/boss design in this game up until the second area is kind of... one-note. Most of the sidequest bosses, although difficult and do require forming your team to beat it, feel pretty much like going through the same motions and too frequently. Honestly I rather them be easier so I can just go in and struggle to beat it with my team rather than having to go in, check weakesses, reform the team and go back in. The penalty for not bringing the right setup right at the start is too high on hard as they can chunk off half or all of your hp easily. The balance isn't quite right. It's too much you either win outright or you lose badly. SMT4A hard was fun because you can go in, not really knowing what to expect, and yet beat it with the skin of your teeth. I'll hold my judgment till I finish the game though.
im in the endgame area now and my god i cant run it higher than 15-20 fps. this is emulated. the rest of the game was 30+ fps for me. if its bad here i can only imagine the switch.
edit: looking at the sky gets me higher but i go to a normal view it tanks (theres alot of reflections on the ground)
I actually stopped to check the map if he was one of the overworld boss markers because he's just... standing there, dead centre, exactly like a boss lol.
Personal subjective opinion is "it should have been in the base game". And I'm not some rando anti-DLC "pro-consumer" spouting dude.
It's "worth it" in the sense that it adds a bit of flavor to the game, but it's kind of weird and annoying that not everyone will be able to enjoy them (talking about the bosses, the grinding DLC is a whole other bag of worms I won't discuss here).
Personal subjective opinion is "it should have been in the base game". And I'm not some rando anti-DLC "pro-consumer" spouting dude.
It's "worth it" in the sense that it adds a bit of flavor to the game, but it's kind of weird and annoying that not everyone will be able to enjoy them (talking about the bosses, the grinding DLC is a whole other bag of worms I won't discuss here).
That's my general opinion for any day 1 DLC, tbh. Though it would probably still end up as DLC depending on when they managed to finish working on it (like the Japanese voice pack and Safety difficulty mode) relative to when the game went gold.
Oh nevermind. I guess I had a miracle unlocked that I didn't realize went by a different name. I was misremembering Knowledge of Tools as "Demonic Tools".
Run around enemies if you want (if you don't sprint they are less likely to run at you), or talk to them of you have them in your party and the battle will end and they'll sometimes give you an item.
I'm loving hard mode so far.
Let's say the game was an 8/10 for what I played on Normal, restarted on Hard and it's a 9 easy. The extra danger makes it so much more fun for me, encounters really feel like puzzles trying to solve them in the most efficient way, and managing resources is critical.
That's my general opinion for any day 1 DLC, tbh. Though it would probably still end up as DLC depending on when they managed to finish working on it (like the Japanese voice pack and Safety difficulty mode) relative to when the game went gold.
