Seems like it was cut for time. Did they do like Project Veritas and shift answers around to make them seem worse than they were?
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Senator Dianne Feinstein is taped being snide to children asking about the Green New Deal
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We're on borrowed time. We tried reasonable approaches for years and things barely budged. People think we have a few weeks left before the assignment is due but the truth is, it's already overdue and the prof is going to give us an F for the course if we don't hand in our paper.
And Sunrise does go after Republicans:
I get that but no matter what as we agree we can and must do better.
Thats why many critique Feinstein, her proposal isn't better or increasing its just goes back to when Obama couldn't do much due to congress.
I think Feinstein if a GND came up she would vote for it, but even the full video she still comes off condesending (not as much in the initial) and offers something that needs to be better which is why so many still have problems with it.
I get that but no matter what as we agree we can and must do better.
Thats why many critique Feinstein, her proposal isn't better or increasing its just goes back to when Obama couldn't do much due to congress.
I think Feinstein if a GND came up she would vote for it, but even the full video she still comes off condesending (not as much in the initial) and offers something that needs to be better which is why so many still have problems with it.
At the end of the day, market democracy and solutions to climate change are like oil and water. Two things we are utterly incapable of distributing with any long term view towards sustainability.
The question then becomes who wants to sit on their hands and watch as scarcity leads to a rethrenchment into illiberal solipsistic nationalism (read: fascism) and who is willing to sacrifice the superficialities which put liberals above conservatives in everything but using power.
The question then becomes who wants to sit on their hands and watch as scarcity leads to a rethrenchment into illiberal solipsistic nationalism (read: fascism) and who is willing to sacrifice the superficialities which put liberals above conservatives in everything but using power.
They edited it down for Twitter's 2 minute limitation and also released the full video on their site at the same time. The full video does not exonerate her in ANY WAY. She still said the shit she said and nothing is taken out of context.
So yeah, you're Alex Jonsing right now saying this is a calculated Psi Op.
Yea of course, my argument is I want to do better while dealing with political and economic realities, and not just a wish-list of stuff I want to happen.
Not sure what conversation you're reading but I see a lot of value happening if you take the time to read through it and get of this "agenda" bit.
Bring out the Guillotines.Oh shit, this thread's in full on revolutionary mode now.
Nobody's minds have been changed. Everyone is conitnuing down the same path they were before, regarding what they'll promote and who they're voting for. The only difference is there's more screaming. If you find value in that, I can't help you.
Which is what the GND, AOC and movements like Sunrise are doing.
Building support and shit like that, it already has high approvals and other 2020 candidates are jumping on it.
The max the GND ever calls for doing by 2030 is carbon free energy generation which even energy gurus like Jessie believe can happen.
It recognizes stuff is hard and not possible atm which is why for stuff like shipping which includes aviation is making massive forts to decarbonize and not ban it like some freak out it will.
It doesn't ban cars , cows or stuff
I got to post Lenin.
Thread has been a win for me.
Also I discovered TheLostBigBoss is a closet radical. He just has some apprehensions about the chaos inherent in radical policy.
people don't generally reverse positions in a message board. that being said, I will keep on screaming an alternate hypothesis from the rooftops for 2 reasons.
1. people are naive about the role of power in politics and the artificiality inherent to the construction of "political and economic realities"
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_ethics (a belief that more people will think like me if they consider their ethical self against a wider discursive environment)
You really should just speak for yourself because you know jack about anyone else's capacity or flexibility. And fool, I said "value" not what you adjusted my statement to as "minds being changed".
Oh shit, this thread's in full on revolutionary mode now.
If you're trying to promote radical communist revolution I want to see the Pol Pot memes
My understanding of this dispute is incrementalists took the video as Feinstein completely dismissing doing anything about climate change, and saw things completely differently when seeing the long video where they see Feinstein taking the position of incrementalism.
People who think the problem requires an all out effort for drastic solutions see very little difference between incrementalism and climate change denial at this point, and so the full video adds very little to original context.
Incrementalists then assume bad faith, which isn't the case, and here we are.
That or people assumed she started the rant litterally the second she walked out of her office out of pure hatred of children, which would be more funny and less political, but you need to learn to infer that the pleasantries are always going to be taken out of a 2 minute twitter clip.
People who think the problem requires an all out effort for drastic solutions see very little difference between incrementalism and climate change denial at this point, and so the full video adds very little to original context.
Incrementalists then assume bad faith, which isn't the case, and here we are.
That or people assumed she started the rant litterally the second she walked out of her office out of pure hatred of children, which would be more funny and less political, but you need to learn to infer that the pleasantries are always going to be taken out of a 2 minute twitter clip.
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Nah, you understand the necessity of radicalism but you're not convinced of making that final jump.
The liberals of the latter 20th century genuinely did not believe that things were bad until they were personally impacted or pushed to action by activists.
This moment might as well be her "please clap" moment, that's the thing. Once you get people thinking you're condescending and on a high horse, they dump you
She might have some semblance of reason, that doesn't mean people will not judge her temperament instead of her ideas, no matter how reasonable they get. That's what happened when Trump trashed his competitors
If Feinstein decides to run for reelection at age 91 in six years, she's in trouble.
Our most famous corrupt traitor (in bed with USA and mafia) died at 94 years, still a senator. Some people just won't stop clinging to power
I'm all for big actions on Climate Change, but the GND is kind of misguidedly focused on the US only. A big percentage of it needs to be spend on researching lower-carbon techniques that we can distribute to the rest of the world for free (steel, agriculture, etc). Getting US to 0 carbon doesn't do much otherwise if we don't get the other 86% of emissions down.
It does go beyond, it pushing for Marshal Program level.
Change our foreign policy
I agree with you partially but the GND also is important as a showcase of it being possible to transition to this system, which ties up a lot of political capital.
You say that like I disagree with their assessment, I don't. I disagree with their strategy to help stop climate change by attacking politicians unnecessarily.
Then congratulations, they fucked us all because they wanted to be "right" rather than be in the real world where politics is an important part in how we live and work in the system to get politicians on board with civility. That's the consequence of reacting to your allies like they're your enemies, they become your enemies and it seems like they're perfectly fine destroying the planet rather than respecting their own political allies.
Their movement has done nothing to save us, and are self destructing the effort since their only mode is attack attack attack. There is no thinking involved here, it's primal emotion and that's hurting all of us. The GOP and the corporations thank them for helping them maintain the status quo, rather than working with us and they did it all for free!
I expect this from Republicans, who are governed by their feelings - not Democrats.
edit: Conflating climate change activists with figures like Martin Luthor King Jr. and Rosa Parks does the latter a disservice because they ended up accomplishing what they set out to do, and they had people trying to murder them while they did it. The question is - why did these activists fail? Why don't we have climate change activists which can accomplished saving ur planet by getting politicians on side? They had better figure this out soon because we don't have time for their inadequate smearing of political allies - we need actual allies. They're spent too much time in the X years since this was known fucking around doing nothing while our world is dying because they don't understand politics.
That's the problem here, all they see is antagonism - they only get out the welcome wagon for Leftist they agree with. You don't make allies or friends like that, even with people who agree with them.
I don't see how killing politicians is going to help their cause when activities like this didn't get a lot for the GND.
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No, they're not but if you want to have a dialogue with them doing a hit piece on them isn't really going to get them in your corner.
Well, it wasn't like they were really gonna care either way, but I hope I'm wrong.
The impending doom of Climate change is real ya'll, and this is a GLOBAL catastrophe in the making, and the youngest are gonna suffer the most.
Feinstein does believe in climate change, they wrote her off too easily. From what I've told this is what Sunrise does, they're not into "talking" to people.
Nobody is disagreeing with this. The conflict comes with the strategy Sunrise is using for their agenda, which is counter productive and separating the left rather than uniting it when climate change is an issue we badly need everyone to unite on. The youngest are certainly going to suffer more, needlessly, because these idiots can't get their head around converting people on the left peacefully.
Question, is racism the fault of people not converting enough racists, or is it the racists themselves?
Is police violence against minorities the fault of people not "educating" enough law enforcement, or is it the police themselves?
Is rape the fault of people not converting enough rapists, or is it the rapists themselves?
Why are you so eager to free these people from their responsibilty while putting the onus on the ones that are going to suffer?
We're stuck on a train, visibly going full speed towards a cliff. The passengers are screaming and flipping out, trying to get the conductor to slow down. The driver absolutely refuses to apply the brakes and is laughing at people.
In comes the always calm and rational thinker.
"Dumb rubes, screaming will only annoy the driver, if only you would speak nicely and try to calmly discuss the benefits of not violently crashing into a canyon, THEN we might get somewhere. If we all die then it would be YOUR fault, passengers!"
Well seems like only the bare minimum requirement of "belief" is only displayed.
It's as if climate changed isn't being treated like the very serious issue it is. The way it's talked about and being handled vs the actual magnitude of climate change, it's like there's a dissonance. Like, this is existential stuff.
Perhaps some people care, but they don't care ENOUGH. Quite sad.
These charlatans hide behind ideas of "pragmatism" and "political reality" to justify their own lack of genuine action, and that isn't just on the issue of climate change. They put forward ineffectual policies that are not even close to "pragmatic" when it comes to addressing the enormity of climate change, furthermore they are in control of the political reality and the reality they chose is to sit idly by and ruin the future of generations to come. They are not friends to the cause, they are dead weight to the cause. They need to be forced out. There isn't time for these people.
Sad that some defend this angle of THIS. Sadder that weight and blame are being put to activists instead of the people who's job is to actually serve the people.
People like icthyosaurus simply have a naive and childish underetanding of how politics works, where they think that Feinstein could be converted to understanding science if someone just sat down and talked nicely to her. Politicians, especially those as craven and unprincipled as Diane Feinstein, don't respond to arguments. They respond to pressure. We see this in that she was forced to release that statement, lame though it was. If they had a nice sitdown with her nobody would ever have heard about it.
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Those are bad analogies, you're appealing to emotion to win an argument when the discussion has more depth than you're acknowledging. The group we're discussing are experienced and connected activists, they're not powerless victims who are unable to defend themselves. They're the ones doing the attacking here. On their own political allies, no less. Isn't it their job to be saving us from climate change? How does that square that they no responsibility to solve this problem or create an alliance with Democrats? How is their work being activists helping AOC get her votes for her GND bill, I assume that's what they want to happen, or am I wrong?
Why are you concerned about not giving the people who are supposed to be fighting for your cause a get out of jail free card for being failures with their mission? Does Sunrise look like they're winning at saving the planet here, because they don't look like it to me. Is that all they're capable of doing? No wonder they're getting their asses kicked by the government and corporations, they're out of their depth and their incompetence is killing us all.
Your mistake is assuming I don't agree that the governments and corporations don't have responsibility for climate change hurting us and the future when that could't be more wrong. I agree with you completely, where I disagree is that the ones like Sunrise didn't share that responsibility to solve climate change. This was a duty they joined of their free will, and are very passionate about.
That's the issue here, not every problem with politics can be solved by protesting. That's one tool at their disposal in activism and politics, not their only one. Look at the methods Black Lives Matter have produced, which explores avenues outside that option - they are professional, very organised and on the pulse of US culture adjusting to an environment where they can impact their causes and be smart about it. Are you going to tell me BLM should shut this all down? That their methods haven't produced successful results in their own communities, and outside it?
Killing the driver isn't going to fix this, as they're the only ones on the train who knew how to stop the train. But let's go with your analogy, say they manage to take the driver out - then what? Did Sunrise even have a plan for this stage, or are they just winging it?
Your entire argument relies on the fact that Sunrise has all the answers to save us, but when they don't I'm supposed to give them a free pass when they can't even convert a Democrat to their cause? No, that's not right - they had no intention of converting anyone here. They wanted a political scalp and were willing to exploit children to get it. But Feinstein said mean things on camera so obviously they are right, who needs allies who agree with your cause when you're trying to save the world from climate change? Certainly not Sunrise, they're going to save the world themselves if they have to alienate every Democrat in the country, then do absolutely jack when climate change does start hurting people because they screwed us when it counted.
Now I'm going to ask you a question: do you want the Democrats to help stop climate change? Do you care about Sunrise looking into other initiatives to help solve the crisis, like working with scientists and science organisations to solve it? Is this all activism is to you, just screaming and threatening people to do what you want? Is that all you thought figures like Martin Luthor King Jr did when he was with us? Is activism all you think politics is about to get bills through congress?
What's wrong with being a "rational thinker," anyway? Don't you want people like that fighting for you?
This anti-intellectualism is stunning, and I'm not exactly a wonk on these boards. This is the 21st century, not the 18th. Everyone has access to the internet now, and Sunrise has direct connections to politicians like AOC. They don't have to be flailing blindly to learn about how to get a politician to see them. Looking at their website they seem be doing well for themselves, they're not a tiny, underfunded organisation started last week by nobodies.
Despite all this you'd have me believe a narrative that they're a powerless group while also having the influence to take out senators like Feinstein? They can't be both.
It means there's some common ground to latch onto, and they should be able to find incentives. What do they lose by trying? It's not like they've gained any time with this hit job.
Which is why it's disappointing to see Sunrise fail at convincing people like Feinstein about how to stop it. Because they're not into convincing people, they're into threatening.
Indeed it's sad. It's sad that they are more concerned undermining Democrats than fixing climate change.
How do you think bills get made in congress? If Sunrise had a real argument they'd have presented it instead they don't because they're interested in scoring political points, not doing a damn thing about climate change. Now they have applied pressure, do you assume she's going to vote for the GND now? What's changed? How do you determine how Sunrise "won" here? Who cares if anybody heard about it as long as it gets results. Grandstanding holds little value, results do, and Sunrise results are laughable. They may as well be putting R's on their badges they're undermining the left so much with tactics like this. Great job, team! Trump is proud of you for dividing the left further than they were yesterday on climate change.
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Yeah, lets unite the left with the centrist democrat estabilishment. Lets do that. Lets call giving up hope "unity", and we are done.
What a wonderful unity that has been.
It's Sad that Democrats need to be convinced to even start thinking of fixing Climate change in a serious manner.
Sad that Climate change has been ignored for far too long now that children (the ones most gonna be directly affected by climate change) are now protesting. Sad that something like that is "threatening". Sad that tonsa people don't view climate change for how serious and gigantic it actually is.
If that's not the plan, what is? If they're not interested in doing anything with the Democrats why are they hassling Feinestin for?
I agree with you. I'm also sad the ones supposed to be helping is fix this are terrible at the job themselves. Who's the equivalent to Black Lives Matter in climate change activism? They act like they know what they're doing.
Why wouldn't what Sunrise did be threatening? They weren't there for a cup of coffee and a donut.
You're only allowed to compromise rightward. You try to get others to compromise further to the left and you're dooming us all, I tell ya.
You do if you want a bill to pass congress. That's what happens with coalitions, everyone gets a vote.
.......
Yes or no. Before this year, have the democrats been adequate in dealing with the impending doom of Climate change proportional to the actual danger of climate change?
So if you do not agree with a democratic senator on how there is nothing done on this issue, and republicans already do nothing for you, you are doomed?
Or, as Feinstein snarkely commented: "you can run for senatorship then".
Please, this is pretty much the talk of "you can do a revolution if you do not like how the nobility governs this country, PEASANT". Do you honestly think that this status quo is not outrageous when this is being considered? "I know a lot, and if you disagree, feel free to run in 8-10 years against someone" is not going to cut it for humanity.
No.
No, my entire argument was to get a persuasive argument to change her mind, I also included trying to do political favours to sweeten the pot. That's the crux, you need her vote - what do you want the movement to do to get it?
Of course I do, you're in the same world as me and we all need to figure out how to achieve what we want in our world. It isn't going to cut it with humanity, yeah, which is why I've bene trying to convince you to use a method which will make Feinstein an ally. We don't have time for inadequate hit jobs, we need genuine movement and Sunrise isn't cutting it. That you don't have a plan after this is telling and why the status quo has Sunrise beat. They're not in any shape to confront the problems politely or outside the system (and I was trying to find ways with less government involvement but you'd have to account for the corporations but that's what Sunrise signed up for). You want to save the world? Good, it needs saving but I'm not going to be impressed with inadequate attempts like the idiots in Sunrise who aren't saving anybody. God knows we've needed an organisation or more to do this for decades, and I'm stuck with Sunrise of all things, who couldn't get a measly vote from a senator.
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The democrats are obviously capable of being better.
But the question is, why haven't they been adequate in properly dealing with Climate change for all these years?