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Eric_S

Member
Nov 29, 2017
862
Russian Propaganda 101 is to spread confusion and doubt about real objectives, and they'll lie to your face to do it. It's designed to be confusing and contradictory. You shouldn't believe a single word anyone from the Putin regime says, look out a window if they say the sky is blue.

I feel like this is worth quoting.
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,274
Consequences of being ruled by a conservative party headed by a chancellor that desperately tried to stop change from happening at every turn for almost 2 decades. There's a very bitter irony that the current government, which has been in office for 2 months, will get blamed for all of Angela Merkel's failings.

If I felt even more uncharitable towards Angela Merkel's loyalties concerning Russia I would point out that she grew up in the soviet union part of Germany but maybe I shouldn't go there.
But who is to blame for this? This wasn't a popular issue at all. The "hawks" who warned everyone of this dependence were called warmongers until very recently.
Realistically it should have been the CDU pushing for this, traditionally they are the pro-atlantics, but under Merkel they moved almost in the opposite direction.

The harsh truth is that both conservatives AND social democrats in Germany were misguided and naive.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,869
How far gone do you have to be to actually have the gall to criticise conscription in the face of invasion from an army like Russian?

"They can just flee!"

Aye, good to luck to them with that. 44 million people can just move house, problem solved. Its that easy.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,237
There's no shot Zelensky surrenders, right? Like, if Putin threatens to totally level Kyiv as an ultimatum what does Zelensky do?

Negotiations mean the opportunity for a cease fire. Zelensky plays along, because why not. Talks are fine and mean nothing.
Should it come to them I expect Putin to make unrealistic demands anyway, just to be able to shout:"I tried, but they want war."
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,389
I honestly think you are potentially wrong. I mean obviously it would take a lot. Our leaders are extremely privileged and soft in that regard.

But after years of threats from Russia? After months of military buildup on your border? After a full scale invasion and being in the situation Ukraine is in now? There is nothing else to do at that point

Hopefully we never find out, and hopefully if we do I'm wrong.
 

ginger ninja

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,060
I mean, why not? These people are just trying to survive and they're being pulled out of the arms of their loved ones to be forced into battle.

I don't think anyone should be compelled to fight and die for any reason. Call me a coward or selfish or whatever but I wouldn't risk my life to protect the UK.

I have a huge amount of respect for those who are brave enough to stand up to Putin but conscription ain't it.


Hence privilege and entitlement..
 
Nov 23, 2019
7,614
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
www.theguardian.com

UN resolution deploring invasion vetoed – as it happened

Reports say artillery rounds and large blasts were heard in Ukrainian capital; Russia vetoes UN resolution deploring invasion of Ukraine

bUwG2cV.png
 

hurroocane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,886
Germany
The harsh truth is that both conservatives AND social democrats in Germany were misguided and naive.

Oh absolutely especially considering that Schröder came before Merkel and we all know how that turned out. I'm just saying we wasted 2 decades of opportunity.

It's fascinating that even Merkel's handpicked successor Kramp-Karrenbauer has been venting very publicly on twitter how much they fucked it up concerning Russia. I hope more politicians will follow.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
The harsh truth is that both conservatives AND social democrats in Germany were misguided and naive.
You can add everyone else, too. FDP wants lower energy prices, Greens are mixed but push for renewables, less coal and nuclear basically makes it much harder, Left generally is for good relations with Russia and AfD basically sees them as a rolemodel.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,037
So Putin wants to negotiate directly with Ukraine, while they're bombing their cities and taking over their country.

Makes sense since the rest of the world has fled the Ukraine and refuse to help them fight back.

I would not be shocked if Zelesnky considers talks at this point. It's lose-lose for Ukraine at this point. Most he can do is stop the killings of his civilians and just give Russia the whole country.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,133
Unless the insulation can be solved with simply changing windows I'm not sure that it's cheaper.. I agree that it's more important but it's not cheap or easy for home owners to do.

Edit: also the EU has guidelines for all their member countries to make their existing houses more energy efficient but imo it would need an economical push
Economic push is part of the Next Generation EU money.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,864
United Kingdom
So Putin wants to negotiate directly with Ukraine, while they're bombing their cities and taking over their country.

Makes sense since the rest of the world has fled the Ukraine and refuse to help them fight back.

I would not be shocked if Zelesnky considers talks at this point. It's lose-lose for Ukraine at this point. Most he can do is stop the killings of his civilians and just give Russia the whole country.

Itnwould be precisely what happened in Georgia. Zelensky has no good options. Frankly, I think he has held out in the face of aggression startlingly well. But the Russians are making it clear they are setting up a terror campaign against civilians now, probably to make up for the poor performance of their military efforts.

What can anyone do in the face of that?
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,601
German goverment is getting blasted on german social media and by regular media over their SWIFT veto. Hopefully they backpedal soon
 

Jaychrome91

Member
Nov 4, 2018
2,640
So Putin wants to negotiate now, I don't believe it. Can someone update me Ukraine is still holding strong and Russia is taking losses?
 

Sqrt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,921
So Putin wants to negotiate now, I don't believe it. Can someone update me Ukraine is still holding strong and Russia is taking losses?
Is hard to know for sure, fog of war an all that. But something that I think is clear is that the fighting is closer and closer to kyiv within each update...
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,864
United Kingdom
So Putin wants to negotiate now, I don't believe it. Can someone update me Ukraine is still holding strong and Russia is taking losses?

Ukraine is holding better than expected, Russia's military is winning, but it's performed extremely poorly, failing to meet its targets on time and taking larger losses than expected to a military smaller and comparatively underequipped.
 

svacina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
Negotiations mean the opportunity for a cease fire. Zelensky plays along, because why not. Talks are fine and mean nothing.
Should it come to them I expect Putin to make unrealistic demands anyway, just to be able to shout:"I tried, but they want war."
Russia does not do cease fires. I mean they will do "cease fires" but they wil not cease to fire.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,601
So Putin wants to negotiate now, I don't believe it. Can someone update me Ukraine is still holding strong and Russia is taking losses?
Russians are advancing in the northwest towards kyiv but don't seem to be able to breakthrough the northeast towards kyiv. There are reports of major armor losses for the russians in the northeast
 

hurroocane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,886
Germany
German goverment is getting blasted on german social media and by regular media over their SWIFT veto. Hopefully they backpedal soon

For some added context here I'll repeat from last night that minister of finance Lindner said yesterday evening that he was not convinced that kicking Russia out of SWIFT would hurt them all that much and he thought Russia probably already has something ready to replace it.

(not saying I agree - just elaborating the government's reasoning)
 

blaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
756
UK
I mean, why not? These people are just trying to survive and they're being pulled out of the arms of their loved ones to be forced into battle.

I don't think anyone should be compelled to fight and die for any reason. Call me a coward or selfish or whatever but I wouldn't risk my life to protect the UK.

I have a huge amount of respect for those who are brave enough to stand up to Putin but conscription ain't it.

If the UK were ever in the same position as Ukraine right now you wouldn't have a choice either, the UK government would also enforce conscription and do their best to prevent you from leaving. It's entirely reasonable to say you don't think it's right to do, but that doesn't really make much of a difference once it's put into place (which the vast majority of countries would do).

"Luckily" we are privileged enough not to worry about it since we have the threat of nuclear weapons in our favour - if it ever came down to surrendering or nukes we'd probably take the whole world out with us.
 

Kwigo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,122
For some added context here I'll repeat from last night that minister of finance Lindner said yesterday evening that he was not convinced that kicking Russia out of SWIFT would hurt them all that much and he thought Russia probably already has something ready to replace it.

(not saying I agree - just elaborating the government's reasoning)
That's shit reasoning and nothing else than a bad excuse.
I'm glad I lost my citizenship, fuck you german government.