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TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,844
United Kingdom


Russian state media push maps like this a lot. Obviously the context is far more stark right now.

But, while being mindful of admin admin policy in this thread, I reitrerate a point I had previously made in the now locked thread; When Russian media talk about preemptively nuking the west, or openly pushing similar invasion maps about the Baltics, it should be taken very seriously. While it could all be chest puffing, Russia's state media actually often offers insight into how Putin views the world.

His history of floating an invasion of the Baltics to the Russian public has had me worried for years, which is why I feel no matter what happens in Ukraine, Nato has to draw the iron curtain now by militarising the eastern flank.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
This crisis having lived in my head relentlessly for some time now, I figured I'd sit down with a transcript of the speech Putin delivered Monday and get a quick overview for myself (and others who may not have the time or inclination) of where Moscow's head is at leading up to the recognition of the LPR and DPR at speech's end:
  • Insultingly dishonest recounting of the history of Ukraine (Kievan Rus? Poland? Lithuania? I'm in the combination Poland-Lithuania? Mongols? new phone who dis?)
  • Speaks of Ukraine by name multiple times, but says that it has no stable history as a state and essentially exists as a shell for foreign NGOs, Ukrainian oligarchs, and American-appointed political managers.
  • He's a bundle of contradictions and speaks from both sides of his mouth.
    • He both decries the strong centralized state of the USSR and decries its delegation of some of its powers to individual republics (with the right of secession being the big sticking one). Decries the notion of self-determination while he's at it.
    • Twice decries nationalism as a virus. Not Ukrainian nationalism specifically, but nationalism full stop... while laying out extensive arguments for Russian ethnonationalism (Russophobia, language, economic, military, religious) that elides any distinctiveness with Ukrainians.
    • Considers Russia synonymous with the USSR for particular events when convenient and flattering, and passes blame to sub-national actors when not.
  • Nostalgic flourishes to Imperial Russia (Suvorov gets a big shout for his conquest of Ukrainian coastal stretches from the Ottomans, before this is rhetorically parlayed into a dig about Russian anti-colonial sentiment in Ukraine being hypocritical).
  • Alleges Ukraine shifted to a military strategy of anticipating direct confrontation with Russia last March and starting guerilla actions in the Donbas and Crimea.
  • Raises the specter of possibility of Ukraine seeking tactical nuclear warheads and the West obliging.
  • Nothing said of the Crimean annexation other than pithy references to the vote and 'all thanks to the citizens'. Those openly-decorated soldiers that seized the territory? Not a word of mention, praiseworthy or otherwise.
  • Alleged he asked President Clinton in 2000 how America would feel about admitting Russia into NATO, and that the response was "quite restrained", and the nation's true feelings soon revealed regardless.
  • Speaks of a number of Ukrainian sites he considers threatening in a NATO context: Boryspil (airfield), Ivano-Frankivsk (airfield), Odesa (airfield), Chuhuiv (airfield), Ochakiv (Maritime Operations Center), Crimea (alleges a likewise Center was planned), Kharkiv (hypothetical ballistic missile deployment ranging all of European Russia)
    • And more generally: "Many Ukrainian airfields are located not far from our borders. NATO's tactical aviation deployed there, including precision weapon carriers, will be capable of striking at our territory to the depth of the Volgograd-Kazan-Samara-Astrakhan line. The deployment of reconnaissance radars on Ukrainian territory will allow NATO to tightly control Russia's airspace up to the Urals."
  • The justifications for the recognition (and intervention) of the client republics in Donbas largely fall all the way to the end and immediately before he makes the perfunctory request that it be done. Warped history, recounting of grievances, and the perceived threats to Russia all come first and comprise the vast bulk of the speech.

Now, what really stands out as alarming to me that I'll pull together here across four excerpts:
1/4 said:
Actually, as I have already said, Soviet Ukraine is the result of the Bolsheviks' policy and can be rightfully called "Vladimir Lenin's Ukraine." He was its creator and architect. This is fully and comprehensively corroborated by archival documents, including Lenin's harsh instructions regarding Donbass, which was actually shoved into Ukraine. And today the "grateful progeny" has overturned monuments to Lenin in Ukraine. They call it decommunization.

You want decommunization? Very well, this suits us just fine. But why stop halfway? We are ready to show what real decommunizations would mean for Ukraine.
2/4 said:
Furthermore, we are aware of the US leadership's position and words that active hostilities in eastern Ukraine do not rule out the possibility of that country joining NATO if it meets NATO criteria and overcomes corruption.
3/4 said:
The information we have gives us good reason to believe that Ukraine's accession to NATO and the subsequent deployment of NATO facilities has already been decided and is only a matter of time. We clearly understand that given this scenario, the level of military threats to Russia will increase dramatically, several times over. And I would like to emphasise at this point that the risk of a sudden strike at our country will multiply.
4/4 said:
Moreover, they are again trying to blackmail us and are threatening us with sanctions, which, by the way, they will introduce no matter what as Russia continues to strengthen its sovereignty and its Armed Forces. To be sure, they will never think twice before coming up with or just fabricating a pretext for yet another sanction attack regardless of the developments in Ukraine. Their one and only goal is to hold back the development of Russia. And they will keep doing so, just as they did before, even without any formal pretext just because we exist and will never compromise our sovereignty, national interests or values.
If this is the earnest belief of the Russian leadership and not bluster, then overrunning the Donbas cannot even begin to suffice to counter the feared threat. Only the sweeping destabilization of Ukraine such that NATO could not post anywhere of strategic significance could hope to meet it, whether that be the wholesale disintegration of the state, its artificial balkanization into perpetually-inflamed fiefdoms (the like of Donbas across the whole of it, in other words), or more conventional seizure and partition between itself and its three bordering clients. And Putin has openly painted targets on cities far in Ukraine's west and south, there is no portion beneath his notice.

What's more, if they believe sanctions will come no matter what they do to Ukraine, that further implies that the only limit placed upon the scope of their military intervention will be set by what they can physically take and what they can physically hold that is both strategically useful (even if only in terms of strategic denial) and will serve to neutralize Ukraine in totality. This is the logic of ethnonationalistic militarism of the "zeroth" sum, a race to the last prime mile.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Ben Wallace, the former Scots Guards officer who now serves as the UK defence secretary, has accused Vladimir Putin of going "full tonto" over Ukraine, PA reports.

Wallace said the Russian president has made the mistake of having no allies in his actions, comparing him to Tsar Nicholas I during the Crimean War in 1853.

Wallace said his old regiment had "kicked the backside" of the tsar in the Crimea and "we can always do it again".

Not the wisest thing to say from such a position and no intention of fighting.
 
Last edited:

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
You have to wonder if Tories just sit in the Westminster bar talking about the empire etc.
 
Oct 30, 2017
502
Luckily the anti-immigrant crowd is not the one in charge, at least in majority of the places. And countries bordering Ukraine are ready to take in significant numbers of refugees:
The anti-immigrant crowd doesn't have a big problem with refugees from Ukraine. They are from Europe, not from Africa, they are white, they are not Muslims. That's what's important to them.

Even a country like Poland (strong anti-immigrant and anti-refugee sentiment) is already home to about 2 million Ukrainians.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,931
Netherlands
This is probably too positive (primarily because it assumes Putin is of sound mind) and I do think Putin at the least is going to try to get the entire Oblasts, but with the chunk of the army still staying in Belarus, I think this is quite a compelling narrative (long thread)







 
Oct 30, 2017
3,295
That's way too positive a take.

They've already clearly declared the entirety of those territories must be basically handed over, not just the bits that the separatists hold. So while I'd love to think he'd climb down, there's no way he can do that now. There has to be conflict to drive the Ukranian forces out of the remaining areas they hold.

He HAS to take those territories in their entirety or he fails in his stated aims and he can't do that without looking enormously weak.

Edit:

Looks like moves are afoot to chuck RT off the air in the UK. Been referred to Ofcom. About time.

Edit again:

And looks like they're going after property.

He adds that his government will "peel back the facade of beneficial ownership of property in the UK and companies" which he says has "gone on for far too long".

I'll believe it when I see it, but the tone is better at least.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,059
The anti-immigrant crowd doesn't have a big problem with refugees from Ukraine. They are from Europe, not from Africa, they are white, they are not Muslims. That's what's important to them.

Even a country like Poland (strong anti-immigrant and anti-refugee sentiment) is already home to about 2 million Ukrainians.

This is forgetting or downplaying the unfortunate dynamic much of Europe west of the Polish border has about 'Eastern Europeans'. Especially those that might be desperate enough economically to 'take our jobs', and all that
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,104
Lmao. I really hope you don't actually believe that.

They are Slavic, for a start.
Tbf, the fact they are refugees from slavic countries and running from Russia invasion will probably help so that the Eastern countries accept them better than that case. But the amount and closeness (we are talking about a 40M+ country!) will probably cause issues. Perhaps we manage to get a distribution refugee agreement now that the eastern flank will feel the pressure.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
You have to wonder if Tories just sit in the Westminster bar talking about the empire etc.
You can watch Parliament live all day every day on TV. Most of them are barely ever there actually discussing important stuff. Knowing people who've circulated Westminster, it's just a normal office with normal wack opinions and politics and everyone just wants to finish the day and get to the pub (the special pub INSIDE westminster.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,011
This is probably too positive (primarily because it assumes Putin is of sound mind) and I do think Putin at the least is going to try to get the entire Oblasts, but with the chunk of the army still staying in Belarus, I think this is quite a compelling narrative (long thread)









This is one possible way to read all this that assumes Putin is still very rational in his approach. The more time passes without advancement on the ground the more possible this becomes, so we'll see.
 
Oct 30, 2017
502
Lmao. I really hope you don't actually believe that.
Yes I believe that. There is no word from the usual suspects about "mass immigration from Ukrainians" etc. Especially Eastern countries will be much more willing to accept these refugees.

This is forgetting or downplaying the unfortunate dynamic much of Europe west of the Polish border has about 'Eastern Europeans'. Especially those that might be desperate enough economically to 'take our jobs', and all that
We are talking about refugees at the moment not other forms of immigration.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,844
United Kingdom
This is probably too positive (primarily because it assumes Putin is of sound mind) and I do think Putin at the least is going to try to get the entire Oblasts, but with the chunk of the army still staying in Belarus, I think this is quite a compelling narrative.

There is some logic there. The west has been going through a pretty turbulent time. Macron up for reelection, Johnson fighting for political survival, Scholtz leading an unstable coalition, and just a general desire not to provoke an unstable nuclear power. The potential for division is clearly observable.

But as you said yourself, this assumes Putin is operating rationally. It also doesn't gel with his announcement that he sees the entirety of the proclaimed regions as independent, and that Ukrainian forces are occupying that land. Putin has put forth the case for open conflict.

Perhaps thats an attempt to restore more leverage before pushing to freeze the conflict. But the west still seems pretty convinced Putin intends to invade.
 

jackie daytona

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 15, 2022
1,240
Tbf, the fact they are refugees from slavic countries and running from Russia invasion will probably help so that the Eastern countries accept them better than that case. But the amount and closeness (we are talking about a 40M+ country!) will probably cause issues. Perhaps we manage to get a distribution refugee agreement now that the eastern flank will feel the pressure.

People tend to forget race is pretty fluid. Italian/Irish Catholics became "white" in America once white people became worried about Mexican Catholics adopting Catholic orphans.

I'm not European, but something tells me anti-Russian sentiments will win the day.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,498
The anti-immigrant crowd doesn't have a big problem with refugees from Ukraine. They are from Europe, not from Africa, they are white, they are not Muslims. That's what's important to them.

I mean that all applies to Poland too, and Polish immigrants have a rough time in the UK. You're trying to apply logic to illogical people
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,666
The anti-immigrant crowd doesn't have a big problem with refugees from Ukraine. They are from Europe, not from Africa, they are white, they are not Muslims. That's what's important to them.

Even a country like Poland (strong anti-immigrant and anti-refugee sentiment) is already home to about 2 million Ukrainians.
Not really the case, there's a lot of prejudice around slavs even if they're white and European.

But I do think Poland and Romania will be welcoming to them.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,011
I mean that all applies to Poland too, and Polish immigrants have a rough time in the UK. You're trying to apply logic to illogical people

The difference is refugees vs. immigrants. Plus people watching this unfold in slow motion and live. It's much more difficult to put any blame on them when you can see it's not their choice/call.

Remember that even during the previous refugee crisis the whole shtick was to try to make some/most of them as not being truly refugees but rather economic migrants before blaming them or wanting them out.

Honestly I don't see any mainstream anti-Ukrainians sentiment anywhere, even anticipating there will be some hundreds of thousands of refugees.
 

Amalthea

Member
Dec 22, 2017
5,708
This is probably too positive (primarily because it assumes Putin is of sound mind) and I do think Putin at the least is going to try to get the entire Oblasts, but with the chunk of the army still staying in Belarus, I think this is quite a compelling narrative (long thread)
Yeah, Putin is either more deluded or more stupid than most people think. Like he assumes war politics is really like a game of chess and your opponents can't forsee your actions or call your bluff or simply not budge with their position. I'm just afraid he now might snap completely both out of this public humiliation and out of fear for his position in his own regime.
 

Irminsul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,041
Yes I believe that. There is no word from the usual suspects about "mass immigration from Ukrainians" etc. Especially Eastern countries will be much more willing to accept these refugees.
Yes, because most of these usual suspects are on Putin's side. Can't really talk about "masses of refugees" and then also say Putin is correct in what he is doing.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,104
People tend to forget race is pretty fluid. Italian/Irish Catholics became "white" in America once white people became worried about Mexican Catholics adopting Catholic orphans.

I'm not European, but something tells me anti-Russian sentiments will win the day.
Not being European is clear when you say "white is fluid" because there are way more divisions in white in Europe that you can believe, as culture heritage has much more value (due to the shared history and tons of migrations / resettlements). Easter Europeans face discrimination in western Europe (as so does southerns in nothern europe but to a lesser degree).
Mind you, not at the same degree as muslims or black people, but second generation ex-yugoslav republic people (that fled during the Yugoslav wars) and Turkish people (both which are white for all intents and purposes) face lvls of discrimination because of being culturally different.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,844
United Kingdom
I mean that all applies to Poland too, and Polish immigrants have a rough time in the UK. You're trying to apply logic to illogical people

That was down to years of the press demonising eastern Europe. I used to date a guy from Eastern Europe who told me about all the dirty tricks the press would play to make the region look bad, like visiting slums not too different to run down areas of the UK and claiming the whole country and culture resembled it, implying migrants would ruin Britain. It was vicious propaganda with an inability for racists to see our own country's existing flaws.

I think refugees from a Russian instigated war might have a bit more luck than that, at least at first, given the general negative feeling towards Russia in the region. Sympathy for those under attack by Putin would go a very long way.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,498
The difference is refugees vs. immigrants. Plus people watching this unfold in slow motion and live. It's much more difficult to put any blame on them when you can see it's not their choice/call.

Remember that even during the previous refugee crisis the whole shtick was to try to make some/most of them as not being truly refugees but rather economic migrants before blaming them or wanting them out.

Honestly I don't see any mainstream anti-Ukrainians sentiment anywhere, even anticipating there will be some hundreds of thousands of refugees.

Sorry yeah. The person I quoted said "anti-immigrant people" so that's what I was responding to but of course you're right
 

jackie daytona

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 15, 2022
1,240
Not being European is clear when you say "white is fluid" because there are way more divisions in white in Europe that you can believe, as culture heritage has much more value (due to the shared history and tons of migrations / resettlements). Easter Europeans face discrimination in western Europe (as so does southerns in nothern europe but to a lesser degree).
Mind you, not at the same degree as muslims or black people, but second generation ex-yugoslav republic people (that fled during the Yugoslav wars) and Turkish people (both which are white for all intents and purposes) face lvls of discrimination because of being culturally different.
Fair enough. Either way I stand by my point that I think anti-Russia will outweigh anti-Slav.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,931
Netherlands
Most I've seen of the usual anti immigration (but not Putin supporting) fuckwits is how welcoming they are to Ukrainian women, so I don't think anti slav mentality is much of an issue in this case. Of course it's one thing to misogynistically joke about and another to house large refugee streams.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,873
Is putin backing off?
The longer he waits with a full invasion of Ukraine, attacking from all sides, the more time he's giving Ukraine to prepare and get reservists in place too, making an already incredibly costly conflict even more expensive.

It's hard to predict Putin's actions, but the longer the current stand off remains, the less likely it seems that Putin wants to take and occupy all of Ukraine.
 

Maquiladora

Member
Nov 16, 2017
5,124
Is putin backing off?

Yesterday Russian diplomatic staff were burning boxes of papers and today staff were filmed evacuating. The Russian flag has been taken down from the embassy. Yesterday Putin got a blank check approval from the parliament for unlimited use of the military outside Russian borders. All the evidence points to a major escalation happening very soon.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,972
CT
Is putin backing off?
I think it's less Putin backing off and more people pointing out the obvious that the longer they don't push the harsher the sanctions and the tougher the Ukraine defense will get. Putin is crazy enough that he could still force the conflict to escalate anyways, but there's no strategic/economic value in stalling this conflict on Russia's side.
 

BrokenFiction

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,327
ATL



rLgjTEE.jpg
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,408
Anyone expecting the CCP to be anything except trash was misguided anyway. Of course they'll be on the wrong side of history.
 

jackie daytona

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 15, 2022
1,240
Honestly I see China staying open to Russia as a good thing (at least short term, strictly in terms of Russia).

Make China the only viable trading partner for Russia, and let the Chinese do what they do and take advantage of the situation.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,991
This crisis having lived in my head relentlessly for some time now, I figured I'd sit down with a transcript of the speech Putin delivered Monday and get a quick overview for myself (and others who may not have the time or inclination) of where Moscow's head is at leading up to the recognition of the LPR and DPR at speech's end:
  • Insultingly dishonest recounting of the history of Ukraine (Kievan Rus? Poland? Lithuania? I'm in the combination Poland-Lithuania? Mongols? new phone who dis?)
  • Speaks of Ukraine by name multiple times, but says that it has no stable history as a state and essentially exists as a shell for foreign NGOs, Ukrainian oligarchs, and American-appointed political managers.
  • He's a bundle of contradictions and speaks from both sides of his mouth.
    • He both decries the strong centralized state of the USSR and decries its delegation of some of its powers to individual republics (with the right of secession being the big sticking one). Decries the notion of self-determination while he's at it.
    • Twice decries nationalism as a virus. Not Ukrainian nationalism specifically, but nationalism full stop... while laying out extensive arguments for Russian ethnonationalism (Russophobia, language, economic, military, religious) that elides any distinctiveness with Ukrainians.
    • Considers Russia synonymous with the USSR for particular events when convenient and flattering, and passes blame to sub-national actors when not.
  • Nostalgic flourishes to Imperial Russia (Suvorov gets a big shout for his conquest of Ukrainian coastal stretches from the Ottomans, before this is rhetorically parlayed into a dig about Russian anti-colonial sentiment in Ukraine being hypocritical).
  • Alleges Ukraine shifted to a military strategy of anticipating direct confrontation with Russia last March and starting guerilla actions in the Donbas and Crimea.
  • Raises the specter of possibility of Ukraine seeking tactical nuclear warheads and the West obliging.
  • Nothing said of the Crimean annexation other than pithy references to the vote and 'all thanks to the citizens'. Those openly-decorated soldiers that seized the territory? Not a word of mention, praiseworthy or otherwise.
  • Alleged he asked President Clinton in 2000 how America would feel about admitting Russia into NATO, and that the response was "quite restrained", and the nation's true feelings soon revealed regardless.
  • Speaks of a number of Ukrainian sites he considers threatening in a NATO context: Boryspil (airfield), Ivano-Frankivsk (airfield), Odesa (airfield), Chuhuiv (airfield), Ochakiv (Maritime Operations Center), Crimea (alleges a likewise Center was planned), Kharkiv (hypothetical ballistic missile deployment ranging all of European Russia)
    • And more generally: "Many Ukrainian airfields are located not far from our borders. NATO's tactical aviation deployed there, including precision weapon carriers, will be capable of striking at our territory to the depth of the Volgograd-Kazan-Samara-Astrakhan line. The deployment of reconnaissance radars on Ukrainian territory will allow NATO to tightly control Russia's airspace up to the Urals."
  • The justifications for the recognition (and intervention) of the client republics in Donbas largely fall all the way to the end and immediately before he makes the perfunctory request that it be done. Warped history, recounting of grievances, and the perceived threats to Russia all come first and comprise the vast bulk of the speech.

Now, what really stands out as alarming to me that I'll pull together here across four excerpts:




If this is the earnest belief of the Russian leadership and not bluster, then overrunning the Donbas cannot even begin to suffice to counter the feared threat. Only the sweeping destabilization of Ukraine such that NATO could not post anywhere of strategic significance could hope to meet it, whether that be the wholesale disintegration of the state, its artificial balkanization into perpetually-inflamed fiefdoms (the like of Donbas across the whole of it, in other words), or more conventional seizure and partition between itself and its three bordering clients. And Putin has openly painted targets on cities far in Ukraine's west and south, there is no portion beneath his notice.

What's more, if they believe sanctions will come no matter what they do to Ukraine, that further implies that the only limit placed upon the scope of their military intervention will be set by what they can physically take and what they can physically hold that is both strategically useful (even if only in terms of strategic denial) and will serve to neutralize Ukraine in totality. This is the logic of ethnonationalistic militarism of the "zeroth" sum, a race to the last prime mile.
I appreciate this writeup, I haven't seen anyone else dig into it with this level of detail yet
 

jackie daytona

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 15, 2022
1,240
Not sure if this has been posted, but some positive movement from UK, with hopefully other countries to follow:

variety.com

U.K. Media Regulator Promises ‘Swift Action’ Against Propaganda After Prime Minister Orders Review of Russian News Channel’s License

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson has ordered a media regulator review of the Russian-backed RT news channel.

Addressing the House of Commons on Wednesday, Johnson said that Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries has asked U.K. media regulator Ofcom to review the operations of the channel, which was formerly known as Russia Today.


Could a Brit chime in? How likely is action to be taken, or could Ofcom come back and say, "well they haven't technically broken any rules yet"?
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
Anyone thinking that refugees fleeing from a war won't be used for right-wing fear mongering is delusional. You can always spin these things into a "us vs. them" story and I won't repeat all the awful and hateful stuff people said about the last refugee "crisis" that was not targeted at them being muslim, PoC or anything else.
And, racism against slavs, or east-europeans, exists:


I know for a fact, I've been living on the german border to Poland my whole life.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,059
We are talking about refugees at the moment not other forms of immigration.

Maybe I'm just jaded on this particular intersection of issues, but I have a deep doubt that such a distinction will matter all that much to the kind of crowd that rants on about immigration in the first place. Though as much because the most vocal proponents are probably fans for Putin in the first place
 
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