Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,920
Expanded soundtrack, more events, more time, a new dungeon, new social links, two new endings, mechanical improvements including to Social Links, as well as to fusion and inheritance... there's literally zero reason to prefer the vanilla game over Golden.
First of all, let me explain that when a new version of a game comes out, I expect it to improve upon the problems of the original version.

A lot of the new scenes fall into one of the two problems

1. There are "humorous" scenes that opt to take a singular somewhat subdued aspect of a character and exaggerate it to the Nth degree. Chie's meat kung-fu schtick goes up tenfold as does Kanji's "prove I'm a man" and Yosuke's "LOL this is so gay right? I'm not gay". It's something that was hardly subtle in the previous version but instead of fixing that they just doubled down harder on it.

2. It's a scene with Marie in it so the focus falls on her. Now I understand that a brand new character needs lots of scenes in order for her to established. The problem is there's already an entire investigation crew that could use some tweaking, specifically Naoto who comes in far too late into the game to really be fully realized and suffers from the same issue Haru did of feeling a bit too buddy buddy with everyone this late in. With problems like this in the game, I don't see why they would add ANOTHER character into the mix. It just means that they won't be able to spend time fixing any of the previous character problems in service of this new character who they have to work with from the ground up.

It also doesn't help that Marie has a shitty personality.

Now if these scenes were all optional that would be fine, but a good chunk of them aren't. As a result we now have the problems of the first game along with the new problems from the new scenes. This also somewhat applies to the Adachi social link however that is completely optional. This is the issue with "expanding" upon backstory's, after a period of time people tend to fill in the gaps on their own. Worst case scenario the official information completely contradicts what people have filled in and best case scenario is aligns right up. In Adachi's case there's nothing meaningful about his social link that I wasn't able to infer on my own so while nothing about it feels super out of place, it ends up feeling like a waste of time that only has the purpose of setting up an extremely out of character optional ending. Keyword is optional though so I don't consider any of this a huge offense. I just don't consider it an upgrade when it doesn't add anything or fix any problems I had.


What IS an offense is making his social link of the "Jester" arcana. This has probably got to be the DUMBEST decision made and I can't understand how nobody in the board meeting said "Wait what? No don't do that". It immediately clues you in that Adachi's place in the plot is way more than meets the eye and considering said plot is a "who dunnit?" this practically a spoiler. I'm not saying Adachi's place was super subtle in the previous game but is just doubling down on it and is basically one step away from drawing "I AM THE CULPRIT" on his forehead. To be honest if I was trying to make this post shorter I'd say this was the sole reason not to play Golden as your first time. It's an unnecessary streamlining of a murder mystery that could've benefited from not being so simple already.


I agree that the way inheritance works is better. It is a shame however that skill cards proceeds to dump all over that by letting you add any skill to any Persona you want regardless of inheritance. It takes a mechanic that was always designed to make Persona's unique and not just interchangeable monsters and turns them into interchangeable monsters. If the resources were limited I might be able to accept this but they aren't and are actually quite easy to obtain. This is optional though so I won't consider it a downgrade, just not an upgrade.


That new dungeon is definitely an upgrade though. It features lots of unique attributes that were sorely missing from the original game and is reminiscent of an old style RPG dungeon. It is a shame that it is locked behind Marie but it's good to be there.

I'll also briefly touch up on the inclusion of super ultimate Personas. They sure look neat sometimesish but I genuinely don't feel Persona 4 needed anything to make it easier, it was doing that pretty fine on its own. Naoto though ended up being a complete overcorrection. They took a party member whose skills were mostly useless and gave her the ability to do pretty much everything. I really do appreciate them going through the effort of trying to fix her this game, I just don't think it worked out well at all and instead of giving me more interesting options to form a party around, it just kinda turned Naoto into my new Yosuke IE the person who never leaves the party. Valiant effort though.



tl;dr: I think the worst way to improve upon something is to take something, and add a bunch of new stuff to it in hopes that it'll be good enough to offset the bad stuff that was there before. This is P4G's philosophy in terms of improvements and unfortunately it's also combined with doubling down certain bad aspects from before. I need to reiterate: A lot of what I mentioned are problems that I either had in the previous game that haven't been addressed or are problems I didn't have at all (like everything with Marie) and now exist.
 
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Cess007

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,212
B.C., Mexico
I don't actually mind her as much in the game itself as so many others seem to lol. It was only when she was pushed down our throats in all the expanded media, such as in the Golden anime, that I started to take issue with her.

I never saw anything on the media for P4 (well, I read the P4A manga, but she's not there) so I never felt she was pushed to us that much. On the game, she's incredible funny at times, so I liked her.

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About Marie:

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N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,112
SOURCE

Given that Persona 4 Golden is literally the best game in the series, and improved upon the vanilla game to a ridiculous degree, this fills me with a ridiculous amount of hope and hype alike for Persona 5 Royal.
Wasn't Persona 5 your second favorite game ever,only behind BotW?
Persona 5 is the only persona game I played,I would love to play P4G
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,422
Persona 4 Golden's best additions were all quality of life changes. The actual added stories, characters, and scenes were noticeably worse than basically everything in vanilla Persona 4.
 

NESpowerhouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,737
Virginia
I'm almost done going through P4 again right now, and the pacing in that game is spot fucking on, which is not an easy feat for an RPG, and I can imagine all the stuff that was added to Golden would have disrupted that.
 

Orbit

Banned
Nov 21, 2018
1,328
Please..

No more shitty poems.

Lol that were pretty awful and cringe-worthy. I mean, i figure that was the point of them, but still cringy.

more on topic: that's cool. i wish this was coming to switch tho so i could really get the 'golden' feel but excited about picking it up nonetheless.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,479
Ireland
Persona 4 Golden's best additions were all quality of life changes. The actual added stories, characters, and scenes were noticeably worse than basically everything in vanilla Persona 4.
Maybe there's a case for that in some aspects...
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But I thought the mood of winter and the skiing trip were great and the Junes concert was a lot of fun. They did better with some of the lighter moments than the original script, thinking especially of some of the awkward bathing suit scenes or anything involving Hanako.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
19,094
Fine by me as long as none of the new characters are insufferable as Marie.
 

Deleted member 2474

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,318
But I thought the mood of winter and the skiing trip were great and the Junes concert was a lot of fun. They did better with some of the lighter moments than the original script, thinking especially of some of the awkward bathing suit scenes or anything involving Hanako.

p4g added a "hilarious" new hanako scene where she breaks a bike by sitting on it, and not one but two new anime cutscenes showing the girls in the hot springs, complete with convenient steam censoring
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,354
Golden is worse than vanilla but I don't think anyone at Atlus could direct Royal without filling it with fanservice and worse direction. But I guess we'll see
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,354
Persona 4 Golden's best additions were all quality of life changes. The actual added stories, characters, and scenes were noticeably worse than basically everything in vanilla Persona 4.
Yep. It was just slightly worse padding to convince fans to double dip. I wouldn't be shocked if a future "definitive edition" ignored it all
 

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,125
RE:P4G's story changes, I think people give them a lot more shit than they deserve, even if there *are* some pretty bad additions.
  • Regardless of how Marie is as a character (Outside of the anime, I don't think she's *that* bad),
    She adds some much needed setup for the final dungeon and boss. It's INCREDIBLY easy to miss out on that dungeon in the original game, and it's admittedly not that much harder in Golden, but at least you've got a few one off lines hinting that there are still things to wrap up.
  • It's easy to dismiss rest of the new story content as being a bunch of filler scenes, and it's not even wrong in the context of the original game, but I'd call the new scenes a refocusing of what P4G is about vs the original, and in the new months this really starts to become apparent. P4G is about being sent off to the middle of nowhere, unexpectedly running into some amazing people, having a whirlwind experience with them over the course of the year, and then the year cruelly coming to a close. So P4G has a lot of scenes of hanging out with these people, just having fun with them, and then scenes towards the end that are bittersweet and melancholic, as everyone reflects on the fact that it's coming to a close. There's even a montage at one point! And then it all wraps back round at the end for the epilogue, with the knowledge that these characters will likely still be friends for a long time, and that moving away won't change that. These themes were kind of in the original, but honestly the focus was elsewhere, it was about murders, pursuing the truth, and being honest with yourself. It's not deep and meaningful new content, but I don't think it's trying to be, and that's ok.
That all being said, P4G would be a lot easier to defend if they deleted the hot spring additions? and also didn't double down on the stuff with Hanako.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
Expanded soundtrack, more events, more time, a new dungeon, new social links, two new endings, mechanical improvements including to Social Links, as well as to fusion and inheritance... there's literally zero reason to prefer the vanilla game over Golden.
The original Chie is reason enough. Plus, less bloat in the original release.
 

Jeb

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
2,176
A lot of additions in P4G were shit though.

Marie

That disgusting fanservice bathhouse scene

Marie

The worst dungeon in the game

Marie

Awful poems

Marie

The extended time near the end if the game

Marie

There were a bunch if good additions too and being P4 at its core automatically makes it the best game ever, but considering the added content was overall hit or miss, I can't help but feel mixed about this.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,377
The game that got me into the series.

I am now required to play this game
Same. I can see the parallels already. The navigator contributes to all-out attacks, your teammates have in-battle and out-of-battle specials, and bunch of new scenarios I'm sure to enjoy!

The only thing I hope they don't replicate is a bonus dungeon that's as shit as Marie's.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
A lot of additions in P4G were shit though.

Marie

That disgusting fanservice bathhouse scene

Marie

The worst dungeon in the game

Marie

Awful poems

Marie

The extended time near the end if the game

Marie

There were a bunch if good additions too and being P4 at its core automatically makes it the best game ever, but considering the added content was overall hit or miss, I can't help but feel mixed about this.
Marie's not that bad.

That dungeon is the most interesting one in the game.

The extended time was fantastic, especially to finish up S-links.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,377
The extended time near the end if the game
You consider this a bad thing? This was the BEST thing! We got to a final chance to spend more time with social links, everybody got a second upgraded Persona, there was a beautiful snow setting and a beautiful song, a ski trip scenario (which unfortunately led to the dreaded bonus dungeon if you pursued it) and there was the addition of Valentine's Day!
 

Sasliquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,328
MIXED FEELINGS

Golden is one of my favourite games of all time but it's additions are universal improvements
 

Deleted member 2474

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Regardless of how Marie is as a character (Outside of the anime, I don't think she's *that* bad),
She adds some much needed setup for the final dungeon and boss. It's INCREDIBLY easy to miss out on that dungeon in the original game, and it's admittedly not that much harder in Golden, but at least you've got a few one off lines hinting that there are still things to wrap up.

i fully realize this is a controversial take and i totally understand if people thought this aspect of vanilla p4 was dumb but, dammit, i loved the fact that
the final dungeon in p4 was easy to miss. that's not an accident, it's by design. in a game about seeking the truth the game itself tries to trick you into thinking the game is over and you have to go against the game to find the truth. even if you go to junes and try going to the food court, the first time you try it will tell you to just go home as if you can't go there. you have to specifically try a second time and tell the game there's something you still need to do. it's not 'good game design' in the traditional sense, but i love it from a meta-narrative perspective and was disappointed that p4g changed it
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
2012-11-22-032913.jpg


<3

i fully realize this is a controversial take and i totally understand if people thought this aspect of vanilla p4 was dumb but, dammit, i loved the fact that
the final dungeon in p4 was easy to miss. that's not an accident, it's by design. in a game about seeking the truth the game itself tries to trick you into thinking the game is over and you have to go against the game to find the truth. even if you go to junes and try going to the food court, the first time you try it will tell you to just go home as if you can't go there. you have to specifically try a second time and tell the game there's something you still need to do. it's not 'good game design' in the traditional sense, but i love it from a meta-narrative perspective and was disappointed that p4g changed it
Though I agree with you on the setup and concept, she really does help the story make more sense, and I really appreciate that.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,377
4690195afec3b6ca91c63603173f23a81f9d6985_hq.jpg


I wish we could had more time with everyeone on the epilogue
Seriously. Like, the story was finished, but goddamn did I not want it to end.

Also, I like Marie. Maybe I'm just fortunate to have had no prior Persona experience because when I played Golden, I didn't think she was out of place at all.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,441
I'll never understand the Marie hate, though I did play P4G first.
 

Jeb

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
2,176
You consider this a bad thing? This was the BEST thing! We got to a final chance to spend more time with social links, everybody got a second upgraded Persona, there was a beautiful snow setting and a beautiful song, a ski trip scenario (which unfortunately led to the dreaded bonus dungeon if you pursued it) and there was the addition of Valentine's Day!
The ski trip, I'll give you that it was good, but something about the pacing before it was kinda off.

Its been years since my last playthrough but I recall a good portion of time where you didn't need to go to the tv which ruins the fun.
The best part of these games is the balance of dungeon crawling and time management life sim.

Marie's dungeon separated the time for each and both sections felt much worse off for it.
 

Deleted member 2699

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
619
Marie's not that bad.

That dungeon is the most interesting one in the game.

The extended time was fantastic, especially to finish up S-links.

The big problem with Marie is that despite her overall importance to the plot you only really interact with her during her social link or when you visit the velvet room. It would have made since to have her take part in events like the culture festival and the beach trip so she could build an actual relationship with the investigation team. Kasumi should hopefully be able to avoid those pitfalls as she is an actual member of the Phantom Thieves.
 

Cess007

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,212
B.C., Mexico
Seriously. Like, the story was finished, but goddamn did I not want it to end.

Also, I like Marie. Maybe I'm just fortunate to have had no prior Persona experience because when I played Golden, I didn't think she was out of place at all.

Same. I also had the same feeling when I finished P5. I didn't want it to end xD

Did you also unlock the Epilogue in Persona 4 Dancing? You get more of them with those designs there, just having fun together.

Never played P4D because I am not really into dancing games, but if there's such thing, I may give it a try!
 

badcrumble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,761
Persona 4 Golden's best additions were all quality of life changes. The actual added stories, characters, and scenes were noticeably worse than basically everything in vanilla Persona 4.
Yeah, pretty much agreed with this.

I'm hoping that's not how P5R goes - I think Persona 5 is already pretty much where it needs to be when it comes to quality-of-life stuff, though I suppose I'd certainly like some substantial tweaks to stuff like Ryuji's S.Link 7 ability (the ambush instakill one that robs you of items/yen/experience). More navigator abilities (both in the S.Link and on the Persona itself) would be cool too.

But when you put it that way, I'm a little worried.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,377
The ski trip, I'll give you that it was good, but something about the pacing before it was kinda off.

Its been years since my last playthrough but I recall a good portion of time where you didn't need to go to the tv which ruins the fun.
The best part of these games is the balance of dungeon crawling and time management life sim.

Marie's dungeon separated the time for each and both sections felt much worse off for it.
Any time you had to roam around freely in town was time you could spend inside the TV.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I didn't mind Marie, though I thought it was bizarre and out of character that
me not finishing her social link in favor of everyone else apparently doomed her and no one seemed to care???

as for this news, literally anyone is better than Hashino at this point, though I'd have preferred whoever handled P3P
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,753
Scotland
It's been a minute since I played Golden but there was a thing with Marie's Dungeon wasn't there? Or am I just thinking of her S-Link? What the hell is my memory trying to tell me? No one cares - moving on. Nice, Golden put in lots of QOL improvements if I recall. There I go again. I should just replay Golden. Been thinking about replaying 5 but I'll hold off until Royal hits - I have it Platinumed anyway.
 

Kivvi

Member
Jun 25, 2018
1,708
Wada? Oh no...
And OP speak for yourself, I prefer vanilla over golden.

First of all, let me explain that when a new version of a game comes out, I expect it to improve upon the problems of the original version.

A lot of the new scenes fall into one of the two problems

1. There are "humorous" scenes that opt to take a singular somewhat subdued aspect of a character and exaggerate it to the Nth degree. Chie's meat kung-fu schtick goes up tenfold as does Kanji's "prove I'm a man" and Yosuke's "LOL this is so gay right? I'm not gay". It's something that was hardly subtle in the previous version but instead of fixing that they just doubled down harder on it.

2. It's a scene with Marie in it so the focus falls on her. Now I understand that a brand new character needs lots of scenes in order for her to established. The problem is there's already an entire investigation crew that could use some tweaking, specifically Naoto who comes in far too late into the game to really be fully realized and suffers from the same issue Haru did of feeling a bit too buddy buddy with everyone this late in. With problems like this in the game, I don't see why they would add ANOTHER character into the mix. It just means that they won't be able to spend time fixing any of the previous character problems in service of this new character who they have to work with from the ground up.

It also doesn't help that Marie has a shitty personality.

Now if these scenes were all optional that would be fine, but a good chunk of them aren't. As a result we now have the problems of the first game along with the new problems from the new scenes. This also somewhat applies to the Adachi social link however that is completely optional. This is the issue with "expanding" upon backstory's, after a period of time people tend to fill in the gaps on their own. Worst case scenario the official information completely contradicts what people have filled in and best case scenario is aligns right up. In Adachi's case there's nothing meaningful about his social link that I wasn't able to infer on my own so while nothing about it feels super out of place, it ends up feeling like a waste of time that only has the purpose of setting up an extremely out of character optional ending. Keyword is optional though so I don't consider any of this a huge offense. I just don't consider it an upgrade when it doesn't add anything or fix any problems I had.


What IS an offense is making his social link of the "Jester" arcana. This has probably got to be the DUMBEST decision made and I can't understand how nobody in the board meeting said "Wait what? No don't do that". It immediately clues you in that Adachi's place in the plot is way more than meets the eye and considering said plot is a "who dunnit?" this practically a spoiler. I'm not saying Adachi's place was super subtle in the previous game but is just doubling down on it and is basically one step away from drawing "I AM THE CULPRIT" on his forehead. To be honest if I was trying to make this post shorter I'd say this was the sole reason not to play Golden as your first time. It's an unnecessary streamlining of a murder mystery that could've benefited from not being so simple already.


I agree that the way inheritance works is better. It is a shame however that skill cards proceeds to dump all over that by letting you add any skill to any Persona you want regardless of inheritance. It takes a mechanic that was always designed to make Persona's unique and not just interchangeable monsters and turns them into interchangeable monsters. If the resources were limited I might be able to accept this but they aren't and are actually quite easy to obtain. This is optional though so I won't consider it a downgrade, just not an upgrade.


That new dungeon is definitely an upgrade though. It features lots of unique attributes that were sorely missing from the original game and is reminiscent of an old style RPG dungeon. It is a shame that it is locked behind Marie but it's good to be there.

I'll also briefly touch up on the inclusion of super ultimate Personas. They sure look neat sometimesish but I genuinely don't feel Persona 4 needed anything to make it easier, it was doing that pretty fine on its own. Naoto though ended up being a complete overcorrection. They took a party member whose skills were mostly useless and gave her the ability to do pretty much everything. I really do appreciate them going through the effort of trying to fix her this game, I just don't think it worked out well at all and instead of giving me more interesting options to form a party around, it just kinda turned Naoto into my new Yosuke IE the person who never leaves the party. Valiant effort though.



tl;dr: I think the worst way to improve upon something is to take something, and add a bunch of new stuff to it in hopes that it'll be good enough to offset the bad stuff that was there before. This is P4G's philosophy in terms of improvements and unfortunately it's also combined with doubling down certain bad aspects from before. I need to reiterate: A lot of what I mentioned are problems that I either had in the previous game that haven't been addressed or are problems I didn't have at all (like everything with Marie) and now exist.
Thank you, you worded everything I wanted to say and even more, maybe spoiler tag the Jester arcana bit. My friend knew thanks to this practical arcana where the story was headed right away what was reallystupid. Why not make it second play through exclusive? And that's just one of Golden's let downs...
 

Jeb

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
2,176
Any time you had to roam around freely in town was time you could spend inside the TV.
As in a reason to, a new dungeon to go through.

Going through a dungeon without the social sim aspect made Maries dungeon a snore, going through the social links without a dungeon as an alternative made the choice to do SLinks less fun.

The best part of modern Persona is alternating between the two worlds and trying to balance one with the other.