You are dismissing the POV of how some marginalized groups feel about it. The Confederate flag looked preserved something that started under that flag. The US flag had slavery, jim crow, the civil rights era and more recently.
Do you have an equal hatred of the French flag, considering France's colonialist body count?Of course we all know a flag of a colonialist white supremacist government isn't hateful in the least.
You are trying to say things exist in a vacuum that you can separate some things from others and discuss it clinically. And I say it can;'t be done because pick an incarnation of the flag and history will give you a horror story of oppression that that flag was proudly waved over.I'm not dismissing it, I'm simply asking how you feel about all the other incarnations of the flag, both co-opted and not, considering this is literally the first time I've seen any issue brought up about a non-Confederate flag in the context of it simply just being a flag that represents America when it was just declaring it's independence/post independence.
If police and racists want to create their own insane version of the flag, then that version, much like the Confederate incarnation, are obviously directly tied to racism and prejudice. But that is a different level of discussion when you talk about the "Thin Blue Line", which is a contemporary version that is white blow black from Black Lives Matter, to a colonial post-revolution flag that was designed to represent America's independence which was in the era of slavery.
I'm not dismissing that America was founded on "Everyone is created equal... and by everyone we mean white land owners", but I think there is a difference between flags and symbols that existed and were crafted in an era of obvious and systematic discrimination vs. symbols/flags created for the specific purpose to represent those systematic discriminations and ills.
When those words were being written, this is the flag that Americans rallied behind:Think about it, that flag had men rally behind it and write a document that said " All men created equal"
I don't care for the French flag either as a Haitian. I don't care what calamity the nation faces, I'm not throwing up some corny FB flag filter in solidarity or cry over Notre Dame. Folks shouldnt have to care for their oppressors' symbols. I see or feel nothing close to positive when I see a US flag.Do you have an equal hatred of the French flag, considering France's colonialist body count?
And this isn't meant to be a deflecting whataboutism argument, but more wondering if you're logically consistent.
The flag of the original 13 colonies in their declaration of independence from Great Britain is known for what it is and has been known for what it is since its creation. It's a symbol of the American Revolution. It's not used or commonly acknowledged as a symbol for anything else. Conceding a flag with clear, simple, widely understood symbolism (Revolutionary War) to some neo-Nazis draping themselves in all sorts of American historical imagery because they've decided they think it's cool strikes me as foolish.
You are trying to say things exist in a vacuum that you can separate some things from others and discuss it clinically. And I say it can;'t be done because pick an incarnation of the flag and history will give you a horror story of oppression that that flag was proudly waved over.
To be clear, I think flag-flying patriotism is corny whether or not you feel a/your country has wronged you. I was just wondering if the French poster who can only see any US flag through a colonialist lens feels the same way about his own country.I don't care for the French flag either as a Haitian. I don't care what calamity the nation faces, I'm not throwing up some corny FB flag filter in solidarity or cry over Notre Dame. Folks shouldnt have to care for their oppressors' symbols. I see or feel nothing close to positive when I see a US flag.
This is the same arguement and people keep saying "Indpenency from Britian" yeah but folks are ignoring that Independence meant for Black people, Native Americans, and Woman. Simnple question, Why should I celebrate or respect it when it just mean my ancestor's ownership just changed hands?When those words were being written, this is the flag that Americans rallied behind:
Look familiar?
The original "stars and stripes" flag was designed in 1777 and was essentially the current American flag but with 13 stars. The "Betsy Ross" design with the star circle was a less common variant first recorded in 1792.
We're not talking about the Confederacy here; the American flag's creation is merely symbolic of independence from Britain. The Betsy Ross flag's connection to slavery is that slavery happened to be pervasive in the 18th and 19th centuries, but that doesn't make the flag itself a symbol of slavery. If that's your argument then you might as well disown national flags in general (especially the British and French), but that's a completely different topic.
I'm not ignoring that symbols have long history and can change. On the contrary, in multiple posts, what I've done is acknowledge that there's a huge spectrum for this phenomenon. The swastika is now a Nazi symbol because the magnitude of the group that adopted the symbol for its own purposes was impossible to ignore the newfound meaning, to where the new meaning has entirely supplanted the prior meaning. It's why I've continued to distinguish the Pepe thing, the MAGA slogan, etc: these symbols had no prior meaning to supplant.Like I said above, there's been a slow creep of extreme patriotism being co-opted by the right wing/alt-right. To say that 'It just represents the revolutionary war' ignores the fact that symbols/meanings change over time which was my point about pepe and other supposed signifiers. Your point about it existing and for a lack of a better term, a specific brand, for centuries ignores that other symbols have long history but changed (hello swaztika) and America has had a pretty shitty run as far as bigotry is concerned for those centuries where even the Star Spangled banner has ye old racism sprinkled in to the point we censor the last verse.
This is the same arguement and people keep saying "Indpenency from Britian" yeah but folks are being are ignoring that Independence meant for Black people, Native Americans, and Woman. Simnple question, Why should I celebrate or respect it when it just mean my ancestor's ownership just changed hands?
Why is that? Creating fake 'liberal sensitivity outrage' posts is a very common alt-right tactic to make liberals seem insane.
I agree with youWhy is that? Creating fake 'liberal sensitivity outrage' posts is a very common alt-right tactic to make liberals seem insane.
Your stance is too close to being a binary: it's either not used by any other groups for any other reason, and thus it's OK, or it is used by other groups for other reasons, and thus we should consider sacrificing it.
And tbh I say let them. Flag is ugly afIt's kinda like the pre-1965 flag of Canada, the Red Ensign, I guess.
There's nothing really offensive about the flag itself, but in the past few years far-right groups have been embracing it as a symbol of "white" Canada.
You don't have to. I don't "celebrate" or "respect" the flag either -- I just don't think Kaepernick and Nike made the right call here.Simnple question, Why should I celebrate or respect it when it just mean my ancestor's ownership just changed hands?
Surely flag code only applies to the current version of the flag?They are breaking at least 3 rules of the flag code anyway so the flag worshipers should be happy.
United States Flag Code - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
But you can understand the the reasoning behind it?You don't have to. I don't "celebrate" or "respect" the flag either -- I just don't think Kaepernick and Nike made the right call here.
Arizona governor pulls state aid for Nike plant over Betsy Ross-Colin Kaepernick controversy https://cbsn.ws/2KWs5bh
To be fair, this is the person that knelt for our current flag and national anthem in protest.If that flag is offensive then all flags are (or at least any flag of a nation over 100 years old), which could indeed be a valid argument
Heinous oppression occurred under that flag, but the flag doesn't represent racism or oppression the way something like the confederate flag or swastika does.
which flag represented the institution of slavery before the Civil War 🤔It's not like it's a Confederate flag, which represented the defense of the institution of slavery until it's defeat and is absolutely offensive
Sure, but oppression in America extends centuries before and after the Betsy Ross flag, which I don't believe is an inherently hateful symbol. This is only going to give way to more Republican fuckery.
You invoke america's history of opression, but your last line shows a profound misunderstanding of it. Black, brown, and women drawing breath inspires republican fuckery. Should we stop doing that?Sure, but oppression in America extends centuries before and after the Betsy Ross flag, which I don't believe is an inherently hateful symbol. This is only going to give way to more Republican fuckery.
What's the upside of Nike's decision here? Most people (including progressives) don't consider this flag to be offensive.You invoke america's history of opression, but your last line shows a profound misunderstanding of it. Black, brown, and women drawing breath inspires republican fuckery. Should we stop doing that?
Nike's african americans are super represented in Nike's sales demo. and LOL "Progressive" doesn't always mean progressive on racial issues, hell far from it too oftenWhat's the upside of Nike's decision here? Most people (including progressives) don't consider this flag to be offensive.
This is the best take.
You're moving the argument, and I'm not following you.
The flag was not designed by Betsy Ross to signify the birth of slavery in the US. That's the post I replied to and the one that I said was 100% false. Everything else you're saying isn't what I'm arguing against.
The flag stands for a specific time period of the United States.LOL!
the present day flag is an evolution from the Betsy Ross flag which an evolution the British "Grand Union Flag"
if you hate the Betsy Ross flag then you should hate the 50 stars present day flag
LOL
I'm in the camp of "They are really OVER-REACHING" on this one because every subsequent US flag are additional stars of new added states
Do you have an equal hatred of the French flag, considering France's colonialist body count?
And this isn't meant to be a deflecting whataboutism argument, but more wondering if you're logically consistent.
Doesn't this apply to the American flag?It is literally the sysmbol for the begining of Slavery in America. When they shouted about freedom for every white land owning male and everyone else can eat shit
My dude you said, quote, "the flag is literally the symbol of the beginning of slavery."My dude you started the arguement with calling me crazy in back to back post, if you don't want to support your arguement that is fine. But don't gaslight
Naw man don't you remember, slavery was invented in 1776.My dude you said, quote, "the flag is literally the symbol of the beginning of slavery."
It's a factually incorrect statement that you know isn't true and you're hoping to garner attention and support from people who don't know any better. So, if you're not insane, you're a liar. Pick one, but don't act like you know what you're talking about, my dude. You're misrepresenting and outright lying about historical facts to pass off some weak argument about something you clearly know very little about.
Why is anyone supporting the trash organization that is Nike anyways? Between sweatshops and artificial scarcity that leads to violence, who gives a fuck what they're doing?
any anyone who listens to them deserves to be smacked in the face with a wet kimchi.Whelp, now we know what the GOP and their goblins will be talking about for the next few weeks to distract from their concentration camps.
he's literally having a quiz on this later and if you don't give the answers provided you will literally fail. chill my dude. I literally understood that he was being figurative and not literal and you literally need to keep it together.My dude you said, quote, "the flag is literally the symbol of the beginning of slavery."
It's a factually incorrect statement that you know isn't true and you're hoping to garner attention and support from people who don't know any better. So, if you're not insane, you're a liar. Pick one, but don't act like you know what you're talking about, my dude. You're misrepresenting and outright lying about historical facts to pass off some weak argument about something you clearly know very little about.
Bit of a strange one this.
The USA was built on slavery, literally everything before 19th century related to the United States is going to be related to the subject (same the rest of the world but with differing time frames). Even now the vast majority of content that is produced by Americans in some form or another is shadowed in the issue of race due to its unique conception of slavery as well as its supremacist culture and counter-culture that was born from its history of division based on skin colour.
Personally I'd be more concerned about the group who have appropriated the flag that has nothing to do with their ideology. This seems like a bit of an overreach and actually lends to it becoming seen as a symbol of hate and has basically created an announcement that will attract certain individuals. This is one of the reasons why the St George's Cross became seen as a racist symbol in the UK, I can't help look at it without seeing some overweight bald troll looking white man covered in blurry tattoos shouting their trap off. Logically I know it isn't but it's been driven home through the decades not by those welding it but rather by those that rejected it.
because they hate America, or because they hate women?Some of you all seem the type to buy a ticket to the US Women's National Team just to boo them.
Civilization as a whole for the most part was built by the hands of slaves. Colonialism has straight up ravaged parts of the world *cough Africa* that had a fuckton of problems to deal with before the transatlantic slave trade. White people tell black people, "pish posh it's history let's stop bringing up the past and move on," yet these are the same white people waving the flag and honoring war heroes and shit. People want to sing the praises of this country and not dabble in its dark side.
You know who black people get to honor? Dead slaves who jumped from ships, dead slaves who prayed for freedoms, dead black people who passed down great stories of overcoming oppression and dreamed for a better future for their lineage. This history is our DNA and we aren't allowed to talk about it because white people's feelings get hurt sometimes lol.
The problem here is the fact in the US black people are STILL getting hit by those waves. This is why I really don't fuck with any kind of patriotism. My options are either root for America or "stay in line and enjoy my freedoms." Otherwise to them I'm just another disrespectful ungrateful black man.