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Nike pulling sneaker that features Betsy Ross flag after Colin Kaepernick and others say it’s offensive
- Thread starter BAD
- Start date
You are dismissing the POV of how some marginalized groups feel about it. The Confederate flag looked preserved something that started under that flag. The US flag had slavery, jim crow, the civil rights era and more recently.
I'm not dismissing it, I'm simply asking how you feel about all the other incarnations of the flag, both co-opted and not, considering this is literally the first time I've seen any issue brought up about a non-Confederate flag in the context of it simply just being a flag that represents America when it was just declaring it's independence/post independence.
If police and racists want to create their own insane version of the flag, then that version, much like the Confederate incarnation, are obviously directly tied to racism and prejudice. But that is a different level of discussion when you talk about the "Thin Blue Line", which is a contemporary version that is white blow black from Black Lives Matter, to a colonial post-revolution flag that was designed to represent America's independence which was in the era of slavery.
I'm not dismissing that America was founded on "Everyone is created equal... and by everyone we mean white land owners", but I think there is a difference between flags and symbols that existed and were crafted in an era of obvious and systematic discrimination vs. symbols/flags created for the specific purpose to represent those systematic discriminations and ills.
Do you have an equal hatred of the French flag, considering France's colonialist body count?
And this isn't meant to be a deflecting whataboutism argument, but more wondering if you're logically consistent.
You are trying to say things exist in a vacuum that you can separate some things from others and discuss it clinically. And I say it can;'t be done because pick an incarnation of the flag and history will give you a horror story of oppression that that flag was proudly waved over.
When those words were being written, this is the flag that Americans rallied behind:
Look familiar?
The original "stars and stripes" flag was designed in 1777 and was essentially the current American flag but with 13 stars. The "Betsy Ross" design with the star circle was a less common variant first recorded in 1792.
We're not talking about the Confederacy here; the American flag's creation is merely symbolic of independence from Britain. The Betsy Ross flag's connection to slavery is that slavery happened to be pervasive in the 18th and 19th centuries, but that doesn't make the flag itself a symbol of slavery. If that's your argument then you might as well disown national flags in general (especially the British and French), but that's a completely different topic.
I don't care for the French flag either as a Haitian. I don't care what calamity the nation faces, I'm not throwing up some corny FB flag filter in solidarity or cry over Notre Dame. Folks shouldnt have to care for their oppressors' symbols. I see or feel nothing close to positive when I see a US flag.
Like I said above, there's been a slow creep of extreme patriotism being co-opted by the right wing/alt-right. To say that 'It just represents the revolutionary war' ignores the fact that symbols/meanings change over time which was my point about pepe and other supposed signifiers even though you're right that they started at zero.
Your point about it existing as for a lack of a better term, a specific brand, for centuries ignores that other symbols have long history but changed (hello swaztika) and America has had a pretty shitty run as far as bigotry is concerned for those centuries where even the Star Spangled banner has ye old racism sprinkled in to the point we censor the last verse, so it would't even take much work to, ugh, rebrand (I feel like i work in marketing using that term, lol)
You throw in that third verse at klan rally's and suddenly its a bigoted song, you focus on the betsy ross era was great cause slavery and suddenly its a bigoted flag. Again, a stretch, but the same stretch as a badly drawn frog in this worst time line.
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Well sure, but that's the situation for every single nation that had history in colonial rule and had its hands in slavery.
But in your previous descriptions you talked about the flag representing white nationalism and supremacy and representing "all men are created equal", when in reality it's probably just a design that was inspired by it's past incarnations pre-revolution. Now if you're saying that every symbol inherently represents those concepts because of the era and they can't be disconnected, then sure, I can see that point and argument and I don't really disagree.
I think when it comes to things like a countries flag or similar symbols, when they were crafted obviously shouldn't be forgotten or ignored, but I don't inherently disregard them because of the era of creation if they were designed for a general concept of simply representing the nation at that time, and in this case it was post-revolution America. That doesn't mean that it's invalid to view the flag(s) as a symbol of America and it's inherent hypocrisy of having founding fathers proclaim "the land of the free" while owning slaves, but contrasting the history of America's flags to things like the Thin Blue Line and the Confederate flag comes off as being a bit too obtuse to a degree, even if the general idea of "all flags represent America's racism" is logically consistent view of what they can represent to those who are marginalized in America.
To be clear, I think flag-flying patriotism is corny whether or not you feel a/your country has wronged you. I was just wondering if the French poster who can only see any US flag through a colonialist lens feels the same way about his own country.
This is the same arguement and people keep saying "Indpenency from Britian" yeah but folks are ignoring that Independence meant for Black people, Native Americans, and Woman. Simnple question, Why should I celebrate or respect it when it just mean my ancestor's ownership just changed hands?When those words were being written, this is the flag that Americans rallied behind:
Look familiar?
The original "stars and stripes" flag was designed in 1777 and was essentially the current American flag but with 13 stars. The "Betsy Ross" design with the star circle was a less common variant first recorded in 1792.
We're not talking about the Confederacy here; the American flag's creation is merely symbolic of independence from Britain. The Betsy Ross flag's connection to slavery is that slavery happened to be pervasive in the 18th and 19th centuries, but that doesn't make the flag itself a symbol of slavery. If that's your argument then you might as well disown national flags in general (especially the British and French), but that's a completely different topic.
I'm not ignoring that symbols have long history and can change. On the contrary, in multiple posts, what I've done is acknowledge that there's a huge spectrum for this phenomenon. The swastika is now a Nazi symbol because the magnitude of the group that adopted the symbol for its own purposes was impossible to ignore the newfound meaning, to where the new meaning has entirely supplanted the prior meaning. It's why I've continued to distinguish the Pepe thing, the MAGA slogan, etc: these symbols had no prior meaning to supplant.
The combination of the comparative strength of the meaning (insofar as people understanding what a symbol means) behind the Betsy Ross flag and comparative weakness (insofar as the size, scope, significance, etc.) of some neo-Nazi dipshits walking around with it during their hate-marches means this particular symbol isn't comparable to the any of the above.
Your stance is too close to being a binary: it's either not used by any other groups for any other reason, and thus it's OK, or it is used by other groups for other reasons, and thus we should consider sacrificing it.
Why is that? Creating fake 'liberal sensitivity outrage' posts is a very common alt-right tactic to make liberals seem insane.
Its not binary; like I said I think the ok symbol/pepe are stupid and should have been 'fought' for. (fought being ignored cause its stupid)
Fact is we have a rise of bigotry fueled nationalism in the US, along with the US traditionally using nationalism and the idea of 'state' as a cover for its own fuckups (slavery = states standing up for their rights. Gay marriage/abortion = unconstitutional) its not hard to see how a classic patriotic symbol can't get easily co-opted. Its not as if America's racial politics were doing great at that time; hell British were able to have regiments of black soldiers based on offering them their freedom if they won.
Old American symbols have shitty politics as imbedded in them because old America was proudly fucked up. I can't shed a tear for an old flag because of it *shrug*
And tbh I say let them. Flag is ugly afIt's kinda like the pre-1965 flag of Canada, the Red Ensign, I guess.
There's nothing really offensive about the flag itself, but in the past few years far-right groups have been embracing it as a symbol of "white" Canada.
In my mind, it's not the same thing as flying the Apartheid flag or the Nazi flag.
Anyone disagree, I would be interested to hear your input?
Anyone disagree, I would be interested to hear your input?
They are breaking at least 3 rules of the flag code anyway so the flag worshipers should be happy.
en.wikipedia.org
United States Flag Code - Wikipedia
You don't have to. I don't "celebrate" or "respect" the flag either -- I just don't think Kaepernick and Nike made the right call here.
Surely flag code only applies to the current version of the flag?They are breaking at least 3 rules of the flag code anyway so the flag worshipers should be happy.
United States Flag Code - Wikipedia
To be fair, this is the person that knelt for our current flag and national anthem in protest.
I think his protest was tasteful and I support his message but I think here he is reaching a bit.
which flag represented the institution of slavery before the Civil War 🤔
Sure, but oppression in America extends centuries before and after the Betsy Ross flag, which I don't believe is an inherently hateful symbol. This is only going to give way to more Republican fuckery.
You invoke america's history of opression, but your last line shows a profound misunderstanding of it. Black, brown, and women drawing breath inspires republican fuckery. Should we stop doing that?
What's the upside of Nike's decision here? Most people (including progressives) don't consider this flag to be offensive.
Nike's african americans are super represented in Nike's sales demo. and LOL "Progressive" doesn't always mean progressive on racial issues, hell far from it too often
The flag stands for a specific time period of the United States.LOL!
the present day flag is an evolution from the Betsy Ross flag which an evolution the British "Grand Union Flag"
if you hate the Betsy Ross flag then you should hate the 50 stars present day flag
LOL
I'm in the camp of "They are really OVER-REACHING" on this one because every subsequent US flag are additional stars of new added states
I think my issue here is that Nike would never condemn America as an institution, but is somehow viewing the Betsy Ross flag as inherently separate from America.
Like, America is shitty, and you're right to be anti-American if you (or your ancestors/family/culture/etcetera) were victimized by the United States as an entity. But it comes across as goofy to pick and choose which symbols of American history and institution are fine and which aren't.
Like, America is shitty, and you're right to be anti-American if you (or your ancestors/family/culture/etcetera) were victimized by the United States as an entity. But it comes across as goofy to pick and choose which symbols of American history and institution are fine and which aren't.
User Banned (Permanent): Hostility and Inflammatory Accusations Over Multiple Posts in this Thread; Prior Severe Infractions Including a Ban for Racism
My dude you said, quote, "the flag is literally the symbol of the beginning of slavery."
It's a factually incorrect statement that you know isn't true and you're hoping to garner attention and support from people who don't know any better. So, if you're not insane, you're a liar. Pick one, but don't act like you know what you're talking about, my dude. You're misrepresenting and outright lying about historical facts to pass off some weak argument about something you clearly know very little about.
Yep. They're as greedy as any other corporation, I can't imagine calling them progressive because of some marketing. I have no dog in this fight.
any anyone who listens to them deserves to be smacked in the face with a wet kimchi.
he's literally having a quiz on this later and if you don't give the answers provided you will literally fail. chill my dude. I literally understood that he was being figurative and not literal and you literally need to keep it together.
Civilization as a whole for the most part was built by the hands of slaves. Colonialism has straight up ravaged parts of the world *cough Africa* that had a fuckton of problems to deal with before the transatlantic slave trade. White people tell black people, "pish posh it's history let's stop bringing up the past and move on," yet these are the same white people waving the flag and honoring war heroes and shit. People want to sing the praises of this country and not dabble in its dark side.
You know who black people get to honor? Dead slaves who jumped from ships, dead slaves who prayed for freedoms, dead black people who passed down great stories of overcoming oppression and dreamed for a better future for their lineage. This history is our DNA and we aren't allowed to talk about it because white people's feelings get hurt sometimes lol.
The problem here is the fact in the US black people are STILL getting hit by those waves. This is why I really don't fuck with any kind of patriotism. My options are either root for America or "stay in line and enjoy my freedoms." Otherwise to them I'm just another disrespectful ungrateful black man.
because they hate America, or because they hate women?
or because they hate racist white supremacist hegemony and companies that use cheap foreign labor to produce cheap shoes that they charge way too much for?
I can totally see your position. Especially when your anthem comes with an asterisk attached and those that complain are essentially told to know your place.