Overall maximum teraflops for next-gen launch consoles?

  • 8 teraflops

    Votes: 43 1.9%
  • 9 teraflops

    Votes: 56 2.4%
  • 12 teraflops

    Votes: 978 42.5%
  • 14 teraflops

    Votes: 525 22.8%
  • Team ALL THE WAY UP +14 teraflops

    Votes: 491 21.3%
  • 10 teraflops (because for some reason I put 9 instead of 10)

    Votes: 208 9.0%

  • Total voters
    2,301
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Pheonix

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Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Considering the majority of existing HBM2 demand comes from the HPC sectors where price is far far less relevant than power efficiency, those customers will be wanting the cream of the silicon crop HBM stacks that come off the production lines at the foundry.

If all that demand falls at the far right of the bell curve for speed binned parts, there is current a large-ish inventory of rejected HBM stacks that are still too cost prohibitive for traditional mainstream consumer market segments.

If the customer demand at the top-end grows, then the foundry will struggle to keep up with the demand because the economics of having so many rejected stacks with no-one to sell to, means production volumes need to remain limited.

Say console manufacturers come along and ask for low speed binned HBM stacks, at over 10m a year.

All of a sudden, the foundry's economics look much better, and they can happily bring online new capacity allowing them to keep up with demand at the top end HPC segment, while providing enough low speed binned parts to the consoles.

it's similar I would say to how Sony negotiated double density GDDR5 chips for PS4 but took the hit on lower speed chips in order to get bumped to the front of the queue.

It's a real win win and the economies of scale bring down the costs of HBM for everyone.

TBH, low-spec. high volume console contracts are probably what the HBM-makers have been looking land since they commercialized the technology.
Thanks for this, didn't think of it like this. Now in hindsight this makes perfect sense and is really the shot in the arm HBM needs.

Guess another way to look at it s that this doesn't mean sony will only get low binned chips,but that guaranteeing they will take them at a significantly lower price allows the manufacturers increase overall capacity as you said. Sony can always downclock the normal working stacks to meet the baseline of the lowbinned ones. Basically its like sony is in a get 3 for the price of one type deal.
Ariel USB 3.1 Type C: Gen2 x 1port + DP Alt Mode

I wonder if that's the PSVR BC port.
Has got to be. Makes perfect sense. Allows the put a USB C port at the back/font of the console that also serves as a display port as opposed to having a second HDMI port.
 
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Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,170
Lockhart is not a cloud box. It is a low end console
I can't see $299 being enough for a Navi/Ryzen console even if its CUs are much lower. A 6TF 7nm console would be costly in 2020 for MS still. The Xbox One X is still $399 on a much more mature process. 7nm yields will probably be lower and it will have more expensive RAM as well. Not to mention its expected to have at the very least a hybrid SSD/HDD of some kind.

I wasn't saying Lockhart would be the cloud box. I'm saying their rumored cloud box probably won't be at launch and that's the one I'm expecting to be "cheap".
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
I can't see $299 being enough for a Navi/Ryzen console even if its CUs are much lower. A 6TF 7nm console would be costly in 2020 for MS still. The Xbox One X is still $399 on a much more mature process. 7nm yields will probably be lower and it will have more expensive RAM as well. Not to mention its expected to have at the very least a hybrid SSD/HDD of some kind.

I wasn't saying Lockhart would be the cloud box. I'm saying their rumored cloud box probably won't be at launch and that's the one I'm expecting to be "cheap".
I can 7nm will have been in full production for over a year, and the chip is just chips that dont meet benchmarks for the better xbox. a 6 tfp chip is 40% of the cus disabled, that is a prity dam big margin of error for a chip to have. also better than just throwing away the chips.
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,170
I can 7nm will have been in full production for over a year, and the chip is just chips that dont meet benchmarks for the better xbox. a 6 tfp chip is 40% of the cus disabled, that is a prity dam big margin of error for a chip to have. also better than just throwing away the chips.
I really don't expect MS to make a very large volume of the more expensive console. The cheaper one will outsell by a large margin unless they're price difference is only like $100. It's possible that they'll be grabbing the chips that don't make the cut for their cloud blades though. Would be weird though considering those might have 2 Zen chips on one SoC.
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,797
Follow-up of a discussion we had and heads up to those who argued any kind of RT cores are confirmed because of the first tweet:

I have a hard time believing this

Did he do not work for ND? Is a safe bet to say that they already have dev kits with them. He tweeted, them someone told him that is a bad ideia to say this, and he came with this
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
Considering the majority of existing HBM2 demand comes from the HPC sectors where price is far far less relevant than power efficiency, those customers will be wanting the cream of the silicon crop HBM stacks that come off the production lines at the foundry.

If all that demand falls at the far right of the bell curve for speed binned parts, there is current a large-ish inventory of rejected HBM stacks that are still too cost prohibitive for traditional mainstream consumer market segments.

If the customer demand at the top-end grows, then the foundry will struggle to keep up with the demand because the economics of having so many rejected stacks with no-one to sell to, means production volumes need to remain limited.

Say console manufacturers come along and ask for low speed binned HBM stacks, at over 10m a year.

All of a sudden, the foundry's economics look much better, and they can happily bring online new capacity allowing them to keep up with demand at the top end HPC segment, while providing enough low speed binned parts to the consoles.

it's similar I would say to how Sony negotiated double density GDDR5 chips for PS4 but took the hit on lower speed chips in order to get bumped to the front of the queue.

It's a real win win and the economies of scale bring down the costs of HBM for everyone.

TBH, low-spec. high volume console contracts are probably what the HBM-makers have been looking land since they commercialized the technology.
AMD is already using ~400GB/s HBM2 chips for almost two years now (Vega 56 uses 410GB/s HBM2 and Vega 64 uses 483.8GB/s HBM2) and they pay over X2 the price of GDDR6 while they could get 100% of their chips from the low-binned batch because their volumes are very low. I don't see how Sony will be able to do that with 15+ million GPUs a year, they will drink-up all the low binned chips in a blink of an eye and have to use well-binned chips for most of the machines that they make. I just don't buy the HBM2 rumor, GDDR6 will cost them half the price, use a cheaper controller and it's a more mainstream product.

I can't see $299 being enough for a Navi/Ryzen console even if its CUs are much lower. A 6TF 7nm console would be costly in 2020 for MS still. The Xbox One X is still $399 on a much more mature process. 7nm yields will probably be lower and it will have more expensive RAM as well. Not to mention its expected to have at the very least a hybrid SSD/HDD of some kind.

I wasn't saying Lockhart would be the cloud box. I'm saying their rumored cloud box probably won't be at launch and that's the one I'm expecting to be "cheap".
I don't know how much each console will cost, but the Lockheart can easily cost at least 150$ less. If you have 1/3 of the GPU power then you also have lesser cooling and a smaller PSU. When you have less heat, the case can be smaller and combined with removing the BR drive, it can be much smaller and lighter. You can also cut the cache SSD drive in half and the HDD too while lowering the memory bandwidth and making it a bit smaller too. So, all in all, you get a lot of savings in a lot of areas, including shipping and packaging.
 
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VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
I mentioned this many times before, that I have misgivings concerning Xbox dual release strategy.
Mainly, because I expect one of the two consoles being so overwhelmingly popular over its sibling, that MS would have no choice but to cancel its less popular brother within the year.
And it isn't like with the 1x vs 1s; if they are released together, they will not have major tech differences unless one is much more costly than the other.

I said before that I am STILL in denial about the 2 sku plan being real. It just seems too stupid to me to accept.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
I mentioned this many times before, that I have misgivings concerning Xbox dual release strategy.
Mainly, because I expect one of the two consoles being so overwhelmingly popular over its sibling, that MS would have no choice but to cancel its less popular brother within the year.
And it isn't like with the 1x vs 1s; if they are released together, they will not have major tech differences unless one is much more costly than the other.

I said before that I am STILL in denial about the 2 sku plan being real. It just seems too stupid to me to accept.
what makes consoles any difrent than other parts of tech? samsung releases both a high end, and budget phone. nvidia releases both a 2080 ti and a 1660 ti. why cant ms do the same in the console space?
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
One of the images posted.

pFuDskc.jpg

Are the "RCC" chiplets dedicated raytracing hardware?

Because if MS have something like this but Sony have not, it would give them a big advantage in RT games.
In the recent DF minecraft path tracing demo, without the use of RT hardware even a 2080ti can't hold a solid 60fps at 1080p.

It would be very interesting if Sony focused on 4k + VR And MS focused on Ray tracing.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
a console that can play nextgen games at 1080p for $299 or lower is actually really smart.

Traditionally, when new consoles launch the older consoles will remain on the market for several years as they are people that buy them because they are cheap and not like too cheap either, like in 2xx range. PS360 never really dropped below 200 until they ceased production. So if you could actually sell a product at lower price from day 1 that has a future and is going to be supported for several years who'd buy a PS4 or xone in 2020 onwards when they could buy that? That new console will play the next CoD and GTA. The PS4 won't. That console also has loads of cheap games because it plays everything xbox one plays including 360 games.

The college dorm guy doesn't care about playing games in 4K, he/she can't even fit a TV in the room nor have the budget for a new console. They just want something to pass their spare time. ~12 yo kids don't need 4K games, they just want something they can buy with their pocket money and put it in their room.

Look outside of your own bubble sometime. $100 or even $50 is a lot of money for students and similar people to drop on video games and these are actually the age group that video games are aimed at the most.

4k30 demands less than 4x computing power of 1080p30, not everything scales linearly. So if 14TFlops is going to do 4k30 games a 4TFlop consoles with a similar CPU and enough ram should hit 1080p30.

So true.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Except it's not a 2x GPU upgrade... not perceptively and thus meaningfully so. In the first 12 months of cross-gen games, Lockheart essentially offers XB1S owners very little reason to upgrade at all, and PS4 owners zero reason at all to transition as both Lockheart and PS4 versions of 3rd party games will be 1080p.

I honestly don't see Lockheart being meaningful as a product if its less than XB1X's GPU performance.



Outside of platform exclusives (and even then it's not a given) there will be no next-gen games (i.e. not also available on PS4/XB1S) for the first 12 months at least.

So, in that period, what's the selling point?

There will be a cross-gen of XB1S and XB1X owners looking to upgrade at the start of the gen. Practically all will fail to see the value of Lockheart if it only does the first year's worth of cross-gen games in 1080p... thus, where's the value of Lockheart and who's going to want to buy it?

If you own a XB1S and can play every major 3rd party game from 2020 through 2021 in 720 to 1080p, how does Lockheart offer much if any value at all - if it takes a year at the minimum to even see a major justification for its existence?

You could use the same argument against ps5/Ana. If all they have is Crossgens and a res boost why would 1s + ps4 owners upgrade?
If the res boost was not enough for them to upgrade to the mid gens why would it change with PS5 + Ana?
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
If Anaconda ISN'T more powerful than PS5 the entire internet is going to collectively shit the bed... it would be brutal.

That's the weird thing. If someone comes out weaker....*collective shrug*, kind of expected. But if xbox is equal or god forbid weaker.....mah god! In a weird way Sony is almost grateful for how hard MS has been pushing for power, its a no lose for them as long as the xbox is not more powerful AND cheaper
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
13,010
Australia
Not that I disagree with anything you said, but the original talking point you responded to was about devs doing RT in their games at the launch of the next-gen consoles.

The idea of devs making a RT and non-RT version of their game, from the perspective of games development and what that would entail, I think is pretty unlikely. That's basically making the game and assets twice for the two versions. I'd argue if we see any RT, it will be limited, e.g. RT reflections, or simply won't appear in most games until devs start doing next-gen exclusives.

Oh, sorry. Yes, that I definitely agree with. Honestly, I'd be shocked if we actually got big games that were really designed around RT. Even in next-gen exclusives I'm expecting RTX-level stuff at best. Here's hoping I'm wrong.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Oh, sorry. Yes, that I definitely agree with. Honestly, I'd be shocked if we actually got big games that were really designed around RT. Even in next-gen exclusives I'm expecting RTX-level stuff at best. Here's hoping I'm wrong.
I mean both metro/bf5 were. if a indie wants to stand out, they should do path tracing. just look at the quake 2/minecraft mod. both sony/ms will hacve at least 1 rt showcase for launch. if ms is smart they do a path traced version of minecraft for nextgen/pc.
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,846
That's the weird thing. If someone comes out weaker....*collective shrug*, kind of expected. But if xbox is equal or god forbid weaker.....mah god! In a weird way Sony is almost grateful for how hard MS has been pushing for power, its a no lose for them as long as the xbox is not more powerful AND cheaper

I don't think Microsoft will go cheaper, they can beat Sony on value by marketing gamepass and matching price. Average consumer sees a more powerful console with 200 free-ish games(including halo) for 1-3 months and it's very tempting. Especially because you'd still have to buy a game for a ps5 which ups the total price more.

Undercutting Sony would be rubbing salt into their wound.
 

Deleted member 35631

User requested account closure
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Dec 8, 2017
1,139
After all these news and rumors about specs for next gen... may I ask what are the ideal, most satisfying specs Sony and Microsoft could announce for their respective next-gen console?

I understand the leaks, and every explanation that everyone is writing here about what it could be, but I would really like to know what people really, really want.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,903
No more brutal if Ana is more powerful then then PS5.

It's going to be "brutal" whatever happens
Not really. The ball is in Microsoft's court to deliver a more powerful machine as their great leader Spencer has come out and said. It's expected for Microsoft to come out with the more powerful machine. Whether they do or don't isn't that big of a deal to most of the Playstation fan base.

The difference in reaction from Microsoft being weaker will be much much greater than if Microsoft was stronger.
 

RoninStrife

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
So... new Wired article stating PS5 could be based on Navi 20 and AMD Ryzen 3600G, unveiled at CES 2019?
Not so sure I believe that..
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,965
The specs of the CPU, says Pelham Smithers, MD of market research firm Pelham Smithers Associates that specialises in Japanese manufacturing, give us enough to guess at which exact CPU the PS5 will use. From what Cerny has detailed, it will need to be a 7nm 8-core Ryzen CPU that supports ray-tracing, is 8K compatible and works with the AMD Navi 20 GPU. This suggests that Sony is using the AMD Ryzen 3600G, unveiled at CES 2019. By the second half of 2019, says Smithers, this CPU should be retailing between $180 and $220 per unit - just the right amount for a US$399 console.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sony-ps5-release-date-price-specs
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Not really. The ball is in Microsoft's court to deliver a more powerful machine as their great leader Spencer has come out and said. It's expected for Microsoft to come out with the more powerful machine. Whether they do or don't isn't that big of a deal to most of the Playstation fan base.

The difference in reaction from Microsoft being weaker will be much much greater than if Microsoft was stronger.


So if xbox is bit weaker it's really bad but if Sony is weaker it's perfectly fine?

I've seen some double standards in my time but this takes the cake.

Spencer did say at E3 18 that "the same hardware teams who made scorpio are deep in next gen development where they will once again set the benchmark for gaming"

So yes, that is a statement by Phil, which does set expectations high.
However now cerny came out and said "PS5 is no mere upgrade"
It also puts pressure on Sony to deliver.

They have both set expectations high.
 
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Bradbatross

Member
Mar 17, 2018
14,377
That wired article starts out with this lol:
"Sony's recent PlayStation reveal points to a focus on the ultra high-end as Microsoft and Google move to streaming"
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
So if xbox is bit weaker it's really bad but if Sony is weaker it's perfectly fine?

I've seen some double standards in my time but this takes the cake.

Spencer did say at E3 18 that "the same hardware teams who made scorpio are deep in next gen development where they will once again set the benchmark for gaming"

So yes, that is a statement by Phil, which does set expectations high.
However now cerny came out and said "PS5 is no mere upgrade"
It also puts pressure on Sony to deliver.

They have both set expectations high.
It isn't double standard. The only side pushing for power is MS, so they are the only ones who have power expectations. Sony is quite happy to stick to games and BC, and never pushed for power as an argument. MS made the choice to live and die by power, and thus they are the only ones affected by it.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,606
Chicagoland
Although we all agree and disagree on a wide variety of things regarding next-gen consoles, I think I found something that we can all agree on..

giphy.gif


the floodgates of next-gen rumor cycle have opened this last week.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,903
So if xbox is bit weaker it's really bad but if Sony is weaker it's perfectly fine?

I've seen some double standards in my time but this takes the cake.

That's because the standards of each of the platforms is indeed different when it comes to the power expectation. We even have a thread with a poll that clearly indicates that power is secondary in making a decision of a platform and that most will still go with Sony even if it is the weaker platform. So yes, power is viewed differently by the two camps.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
It isn't double standard. The only side pushing for power is MS, so they are the only ones who have power expectations. Sony is quite happy to stick to games and BC, and never pushed for power as an argument. MS made the choice to live and die by power, and thus they are the only ones affected by it.

No, Cernys "no mere upgrade" statement sets expectations high for power.


That's because the standards of each of the platforms is indeed different when it comes to the power expectation. We even have a thread with a poll that clearly indicates that power is secondary in making a decision of a platform and that most will still go with Sony even if it is the weaker platform. So yes, power is viewed differently by the two camps.

Nonsense, power was a huge deal here (the old place) during the PS4 launch.
And many people switch to ps4 because of it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,575
Although we all agree and disagree on a wide variety of things regarding next-gen consoles, I think I found something that we can all agree on..

giphy.gif


the floodgates of next-gen rumor cycle have opened this last week.
and now the wait for actual dev kit leaks begins. In the meantime we'll have a ton of fake leaks to deal with and keep the more active folks in this thread entertained.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,965
"no mere upgrade" is a general statement that applies to more than power. It is a more advanced system in general. It is sporting a SSD and it has BC this time around. A mere upgrade would have just been an amped PS4 with more of the same (i.e, no SSD, no BC, etc...).

As far as dev kits, I say it should take about a month until we get the goods.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
So if xbox is bit weaker it's really bad but if Sony is weaker it's perfectly fine?

I've seen some double standards in my time but this takes the cake.

Spencer did say at E3 18 that "the same hardware teams who made scorpio are deep in next gen development where they will once again set the benchmark for gaming"

So yes, that is a statement by Phil, which does set expectations high.
However now cerny came out and said "PS5 is no mere upgrade"
It also puts pressure on Sony to deliver.

They have both set expectations high.
"no mere upgrade" is very different from saying "we are gonna set the benchmark for next gen" and "we will have the most powerful console"

I doubt there is a single person tracking tch in the industry that hasn't heard how the next xbox will be the most powerful thing. Sony has not said a single thing alluding to the intended power of their next gen plans. If the next xbox does come and is more powerful, it will be expected. Cause they have only been saying it for the last year or so. Not a single person will expect to next PS to be more powerful. I actually hope for MS sake they don't let that happen.

No double standards here. MS hs been talking up a storm..... they need to put up or shut up.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
"no mere upgrade" is a general statement that applies to more than power. It is a more advanced system in general. It is sporting a SSD and it has BC this time around. A mere upgrade would have just been an amped PS4 with more of the same (i.e, no SSD, no BC, etc...).

Lol.
The context in which he says it does not disclude power at all.

MARK CERNY WOULD like to get one thing out of the way right now: The videogame console that Sony has spent the past four years building is no mere upgrade.

being that games are sony's forte, that statement applies to power.
Or you think he talking about there cloud services there.
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
MS also needs to have more power due to their weaker position wrt exclusives.

If they don't have power, value, or content..then it puts them in a very difficult position
 

Dekim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,346
The expectation of MS having the most powerful console is a combination of Phil's words from last E3, history of MS having the most powerful console and not being scared to market that fact, their last console, the XBX, being noticeably more powerful than the PS4 Pro, and the general notion that The Xbox One not at least matching the PS4 in power was a mistake that Phil's not keen to repeat.

Sony, in contrast, don't have a history of having the most powerful console on the market. This generation is an anomaly in that regard. So the notion that the PS5 may come in weaker that the next Xbox wouldn't be all that shocking to most people.
 
Nov 30, 2017
1,563
No, Cernys "no mere upgrade" statement sets expectations high for power.




Nonsense, power was a huge deal here (the old place) during the PS4 launch.
And many people switch to ps4 because of it.

People switched for more reasons than just power. MS made bad moves with focusing on kinect. Its system was underpowered and $100 more.

Also your right power is a big deal. A little bit one way or the other is not though. I dont care if PS5 has less TF. I do care about playing a ton of sure to be hit sequels and new IP. Thats what Sony always does, a great library of games to go with hardware.

Now if MS studios start coming out with great first party games i guarsntee i will pick one up. Its about the games.

Im sure there are some gamers are picking up whichever is most powerful. I dont think that is the majority though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,965
Lol.
The context in which he says it does not disclude power at all.



being that games are sony's forte, that statement applies to power.
Or you think he talking about there cloud services there.
""no mere upgrade" is a general statement that applies to more than power "

I said more than power. I didn't say anything about not including power.

All I am saying is that Sony has avoided making it specifically about power. MS, on the other hand, has directly mentioned power. Two different situations and expectations. If MS ends up having a weaker console next gen, there will be a ton of "they lied!"/ "lol MS" comments. Not to say they would be deserved since that intent comment was taken in the wrong way by most but it is what it is. They invited it in the first place.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,919
Maryland
Really? Cheaper AND better? What's the catch, is this not feasible in PCs or something? Or is InFO_MS just straight-up going to make interposers obsolete?
Cheaper in the long run, perhaps not the short run. I also don't know if it can scale as physically large as the biggest interposers.

It also was only scheduled to be available starting this year, so that would explain why we haven't seen it yet.
 
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Feb 10, 2018
17,534
People switched for more reasons than just power. MS made bad moves with focusing on kinect. Its system was underpowered and $100 more.

Also your right power is a big deal. A little bit one way or the other is not though. I dont care if PS5 has less TF. I do care about playing a ton of sure to be hit sequels and new IP. Thats what Sony always does, a great library of games to go with hardware.

Now if MS studios start coming out with great first party games i guarsntee i will pick one up. Its about the games.

Im sure there are some gamers are picking up whichever is most powerful. I dont think that is the majority though.

I agree, and I also recognise that Spencer has set the expectation that they intend to set the benchmark in console gaming for next gen.
However what cerny has said does not give them a free pass in delivering a very powerful console next gen, his language has not put as much pressure on them as Spencer but it has certainly not given them a freepass in this area.
 
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Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,871
Did MS ever say anything more than, "We intend to set the benchmark for gaming"? I feel people are ready to pounce if MS comes out weaker but that can't be what they're hanging their hat on, right?
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
""no mere upgrade" is a general statement that applies to more than power "

I said more than power. I didn't say anything about not including power.

All I am saying is that Sony has avoided making it specifically about power. MS, on the other hand, has directly mentioned power. Two different situations and expectations. If MS ends up having a weaker console next gen, there will be a ton of "they lied!"/ "lol MS" comments. Not to say they would be deserved since that intent comment was taken in the wrong way by most but it is what it is. They invited it in the first place.

To be fair ms have not specifically said "power" either.

"the benchmark in gaming" could mean lots of things, like how "no mere upgrade" can mean lots of things.

I mean if the PS5 is not a large upgrade people could say "lol Sony they lied" to.


Did MS ever say anything more than, "We intend to set the benchmark for gaming"? I feel people are ready to pounce if MS comes out weaker but that can't be what they're hanging their hat on, right?

It's what people are trying to set up.

That Sony's set expectations don't only mean graphical performance but MS's do
 
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