TheKeyPit

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,865
Germany
This opens up the possibility that someone in the MCU can just get killed for shock value and have their multiverse variant (portrayed by the same actor) come back in a future MCU movie.

Edit: lol, imagine Disney asking Tom Holland "Hey, this will be your last Spider-Man movie. Do you want to play character xyz from the marvel multiverse?"

He could be Iron-Man in another universe...
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,880
Loved the episode, really excited to see things get really crazy over the next couple years. Also super happy there's a season 2 of Loki and I'm hoping this Loki shows up in a bunch of the movies because Tom Hiddleston is just so much fun to watch.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,448
Beaumont, CA
826bc1ae111e08fe7bec3072e519c7f16511686c.jpg
I seriously didn't know this panel existed. I hope it continues to get posted as Kang becomes the new Thanos. Hilarious.

Speaking of funny, after the finale I hopped on over to Paramount+ to watch stuff and the first commercial is for Picard Season 2 about how "Time is broken" and it's just too easy to imagine the two being related. I still need to see S1.
 

duckroll

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,937
Singapore
I seriously didn't know this panel existed. I hope it continues to get posted as Kang becomes the new Thanos. Hilarious.

Speaking of funny, after the finale I hopped on over to Paramount+ to watch stuff and the first commercial is for Picard Season 2 about how "Time is broken" and it's just too easy to imagine the two being related. I still need to see S1.
The director of WandaVision is helming the next Star Trek film! #ItsAllConnected
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,382
This opens up the possibility that someone in the MCU can just get killed for shock value and have their multiverse variant (portrayed by the same actor) come back in a future MCU movie.

Edit: lol, imagine Disney asking Tom Holland "Hey, this will be your last Spider-Man movie. Do you want to play character xyz from the marvel multiverse?"

He could be Iron-Man in another universe...

a perfectly meta comic book adaptation
 

RetroMG

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,814
I swear to god, at some point Marvel is going to film a grey-haired stuntman on a Jetski on location somewhere and the internet is going to lose it's goddamn minds.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,231
Washington DC
My wife and I were really disappointed with the final episode. We are not comic people (we've seen most of the main movies), so we had no idea who this new 'enemy' was. Episode was so weird; how do you go from an exciting penultimate episode were you enchant a freaking smoke dragon, to a final episode were you have an exposition dump for half the episode by some guy that seems like he's done too many lines in the bathroom? How is this guy someone that is controlling all of time, and yet he's just a normal human that can be stabbed to death? The fight between the two Lokis seemed so forced, with the female Loki basically changing behavior to fit the plot. Ugh, episode was dumb, episode 3 remains the highlight of the series.

One thing I will say is that after it was over, I told my wife I bet a lot of the people big into this stuff will have loved this finale for some reason or other, and looking here it seems I was correct. It's like this episode was made for the select few that are deep into this lore; for the rest of us it was just a mess of nonsensical exposition and odd choices.
 
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SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,550
Earth, 21st Century
My wife and I were really disappointed with the final episode. We are not comic people (we've seen most of the main movies), so we had no idea who this new 'enemy' was. Episode was so weird; how do you go from an exciting penultimate episode were you enchant a freaking smoke dragon, to a final episode were you have an exposition dump for half the episode buy some guy that seems like he's done too many lines in the bathroom? How is this guy someone that is controlling all of time, and yet he's just a normal human that can be stabbed to death? The fight between the two Lokis seemed so forced, with the female Loki basically changing behavior to fit the plot. Ugh, episode was dumb, episode 3 remains the highlight of the series.

One thing I will say is that after it was over, I told my wife I bet a lot of the people big into this stuff will have loved this finale for some reason or other, and looking here it seems I was correct. It's like this episode was made for the select few that are deep into this lore; for the rest of us it was just a mess of nonsensical exposition and odd choices.
I found this episode to be the low point of the series as well, although I think Episode 3 is my second least favorite. Pretty big disappointment to me after the fantastic previous episode, although I was glad it was Kang and not another Loki.

I think we won't see the payoff until the upcoming movies and Season 2. But waiting a week for this was kind of underwhelming.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,285
I feel like I watched a different show than the people that say this episode didn't focus on 'character'.

Episodes 1 through 5 were about putting Loki through a series of experiences that possibly changed him. Episode 6 was about testing those changes over and over again. PROVING that Loki had actually changed.

•Originally, Loki wanted ultimate power. He wanted this because he felt unloved his entire life, looked down upon, alone. But when he -saw- ultimate power, the TVA, he realized that it was even more alienating than a lack of it. The TVA was dry, boring, empty, soulless.
•Originally, Loki was alone. His family cared for him, but he couldn't see it. He thought his father and brother looked down on him, or were ashamed of him. And even though he did not resent his mother, he probably felt like she couldn't possibly actually love him, because he wasn't hers, and he was such a fuckup. But these people loved him, and he couldn't accept it or risk the vulnerability to love those people back. Over the course of the series, he is forced to spend time with people that understand him in some way, and this allows him to understand himself better, but also develop true and meaningful connections (Mobius and Sylvie)

In this episode, his character development is tested and confirmed TWICE. Miss Minutes offers him Asgard, Midgard, Thanos, The Infinity Gauntlet, and he turns it down. He could have had incredible power, but his newfound selflessness prevailed. Then Kang offers him the ultimate throne: dominion over ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. LITERAL KING OF SPACE. And he turns it down again! Everything he's ever wanted is right in front of him, but he begins to put the needs of others first.

And every word with Sylvie, everything they do together, every aspect of the fight, it proves that he has finally found a person he can love, and that it's not fragile, not a lie. Loki barely fights her, begs and pleads for her to stop, puts his own life on the line to spare everyone from a multiversal war but also to spare Sylvie the guilt and regret and emptiness that comes with mistakes made out of anger and resentment and loneliness.

The Loki of episode 1 would have killed Kang the second it was offered to him, slipped on the super TemPad without a second thought, and gone on a rampage throughout time and space to subjugate the Avengers. He would have been truly and utterly alone doing it, too.

Episode 6 had a lot of Kang exposition, but every single Loki and Sylvie moment was crafted with geniune purpose. Even things like the way he literally steps out of her way when they get to the front door, he knows that this is HER destiny that is approaching, and does not try to usurp the moment until the very end when he has to try and stop her to save her.

Edit: And one more thing: Several times through the show, it's noted that Loki is a survivor. Surviving is what he does. He survived falling from the bifrost, survived the encounter with Kurse, survived Ragnarok, survived Lamentis, survived the void (different versions, etc). But in episode 6, survival is the last thing on his mind. He came within a hair's breadth of being killed by Sylvie so that he could try and talk her down, dissuade her from making a mistake, so that she could be okay. The finale is selfless act after selfless act, genuine heroism from a guy for whom it seemed impossible.

Hit the nail on the head.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,752
Was completely underwhelmed by that as a season finale. For the future of the MCU it was pretty cool though.

This is where I am. I was skeptical of Kang/Immortus being introduced, but there he was.

I did like seeing Johnathan Majors do something different than the ultra-serious role he had in Lovecraft Country, and I assume he will be playing all sorts of personalities in the different versions.

As far as this episode, it was pretty entertaining but the show pretty much stopped being about Loki. His arc was over at the end of the last episode, when they succeed in reaching the castle. There wasn't much for either Loki to do, and that was disappointing.

I wonder if this was always intended to be an ongoing series, or if they were playing wait-and-see. I think if I knew this was going to be more like traditional TV I'd have had different expectations for the finale. I expected more closure.

Sadly, the metaphysics still make about zero sense. The "TVA is lying" hedge doesn't really work when they basically establish that most of what they claim is true. The MCU is still inconsistent with the concept of timeline and parallel universe, trying to have it both ways. It's easy to ignore most of the time but when it comes front and center it's a distraction.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,412
This is where I am. I was skeptical of Kang/Immortus being introduced, but there he was.

I did like seeing Johnathan Majors do something different than the ultra-serious role he had in Lovecraft Country, and I assume he will be playing all sorts of personalities in the different versions.

As far as this episode, it was pretty entertaining but the show pretty much stopped being about Loki. His arc was over at the end of the last episode, when they succeed in reaching the castle. There wasn't much for either Loki to do, and that was disappointing.

I wonder if this was always intended to be an ongoing series, or if they were playing wait-and-see. I think if I knew this was going to be more like traditional TV I'd have had different expectations for the finale. I expected more closure.

Sadly, the metaphysics still make about zero sense. The "TVA is lying" hedge doesn't really work when they basically establish that most of what they claim is true. The MCU is still inconsistent with the concept of timeline and parallel universe, trying to have it both ways. It's easy to ignore most of the time but when it comes front and center it's a distraction.
It was already known that Season 2 was likely. An executive from Marvel Studios said as much back in April or so.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,312
I didn't expect Immortus to show up before Kang but after thinking about the whole thing it ended up seeming pretty obvious. Time police, headquartered at the end of time, etc.

I am really curious about what's gonna be Kang's final look, feeling the blue face + purple helmet is gonna be an armor helmet of sorts.
 

BFIB

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,952
I'm guessing multiverse is going to be a huge part of Phase 4 with every movie falling victim to the multiverse. I'm also thinking that in Spider-Man No Way Home the multiverse starts to collapse on itself from the ultimate version of Kang the Conqueror in a post credits scene, which leads to Doctor Strange trying to handle the collapse of the multiverse. Jane becoming Thor isn't the Jane we know, but a Jane from a multiverse, and finally when all hope is lost and no one can stop Kang, the FF4 is introduced with the Reed Richards/Nathaniel Richards bomb being dropped.
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,209
So besides Ralph Bohner, is He Who Remains the first actual Fox character to appear in the MCU? He's tied to the Fantastic Four, right?
 

Pacote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,313
São Paulo
My wife and I were really disappointed with the final episode. We are not comic people (we've seen most of the main movies), so we had no idea who this new 'enemy' was. Episode was so weird; how do you go from an exciting penultimate episode were you enchant a freaking smoke dragon, to a final episode were you have an exposition dump for half the episode buy some guy that seems like he's done too many lines in the bathroom? How is this guy someone that is controlling all of time, and yet he's just a normal human that can be stabbed to death? The fight between the two Lokis seemed so forced, with the female Loki basically changing behavior to fit the plot. Ugh, episode was dumb, episode 3 remains the highlight of the series.

One thing I will say is that after it was over, I told my wife I bet a lot of the people big into this stuff will have loved this finale for some reason or other, and looking here it seems I was correct. It's like this episode was made for the select few that are deep into this lore; for the rest of us it was just a mess of nonsensical exposition and odd choices.

"Selected few"

KHgLuKf.png
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I didn't expect Immortus to show up before Kang but after thinking about the whole thing it ended up seeming pretty obvious. Time police, headquartered at the end of time, etc.

I am really curious about what's gonna be Kang's final look, feeling the blue face + purple helmet is gonna be an armor helmet of sorts.

I think it's kinda cool that we know how he dies in his best case scenario - this is, after all, the Kang that succeeded at everything. He defeated every hero that stood before him, killed every other Kang that threatened his rule, destroyed most of the multiverse and established a system of control over what was left that would guarantee nobody would ever be able to usurp him. All that and a Loki still kills him in the end. It's satisfying.

He says the other Kangs are worse than him but that's kind of difficult to believe when he openly admits he weaponised Alioth to destroy nearly all of the multiverse, so now we're gonna see the unsuccessful Kangs, the ones the heroes actually manage to stop. That is so bizarrely unique a concept that I'm really looking forward to it.
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,983
So besides Ralph Bohner, is He Who Remains the first actual Fox character to appear in the MCU? He's tied to the Fantastic Four, right?
He Who Remains is a Thor character I think technically. Immortus first appeared in F4, Kang in Avengers. I'm not sure where the rights land on him.

Whoops, Immortus is also Avengers. Rama-Tut is F4.
 
Oct 25, 2017
33,245
Atlanta GA
I think it's kinda cool that we know how he dies in his best case scenario - this is, after all, the Kang that succeeded at everything. He defeated every hero that stood before him, killed every other Kang that threatened his rule, destroyed most of the multiverse and established a system of control over what was left that would guarantee nobody would ever be able to usurp him.

He says the other Kangs are worse than him but that's kind of difficult to believe when he openly admits he weaponised Alioth to destroy nearly all of the multiverse, so now we're gonna see the unsuccessful Kangs, the ones the heroes actually manage to stop. That is so bizarrely unique a concept that I'm really looking forward to it.

Yeah that was the coolest thing they did by merging Immortus with He Who Remains.

This Immortus actually defeated ALL OTHER Kangs/Immortuseses, but just ended up becoming even worse than any Kang.
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,983
How does that disprove what I'm saying? I'm not sure what website that is but I take it that is 5,000 ratings by people that are deep into this kind of thing....not many else would be logging in to rate it?
While it's dumb to use IMDB user ratings as a metric for this, the overall buzz has been high among non comic fans that I have seen around. So I think this is just a case of this will either land for you or it won't. Regardless of your comic knowledge, it's an interesting way to end a season and exposition dumps are hard to pull off. So if you don't buy the performance of Majors, it's just not going to work for you at all. I can totally see not liking this episode.
 
Oct 25, 2017
33,245
Atlanta GA
Nah it's perfectly fine to not like the finale. It's just not nonsensical. It ties the whole show together, displays the culmination of Loki's character arc and sets up S2 and other upcoming MCU stuff.
 
Oct 25, 2017
33,245
Atlanta GA
I guess because Disney & Fox swapped rights for the Scarlet Witch, I just considered the kids were part of that.

I know nothing about Renslayer. I guess she has a bigger role to play than I thought.

In the comics Ravonna was a princess of the last kingdom unconquered by Kang in the future and he spared her because he fell in love with her

And then he brings the Avengers to the future to help him get laid basically lol, stuff happens and he ends up creating a Variant of her to live with him in Limbo or something to that effect, been a long time since I read the story

Ravonna is an Avengers character

Yeah I think Ravonna may actually have been one of those "both can use them" characters, but as far as I'm aware Marvel could not use Kang until they obtained the Fox rights back so they had little reason to use her.

Kang is closely associated with both F4 and Avengers/Thor, but I recall someone saying at some point that he was off-limits before.

But the TVA itself did first appear in Thor
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,513
I get the "Loki barely matters" concern - in a sense, the finale spends 2/3rds of its runtime setting up a very, VERY detailed trolley problem, and then throws it at the Lokis to see how they react. They both, really, act the way you'd expect. Sylvie, who wants revenge, wants to kill him. Loki, who wants power, wants to usurp him. But Loki is changed enough by his journey that his motivation is no longer just power, and he has the uphill battle of trying to convince people that THIS TIME, it really stuck, because the choice is the same either way.

But it's 100% the back seat, and objectively it's a ton of time dedicated to fleshing out the lore of that choice. In sheer mass, the lore outweighs everything else. So pound-for-pound I can see why people would call it a bad finale. Good piece of MCU content, holistically, but a bad Loki episode. Depends on how Season 2 ends up going I guess.

That being said... the Loki stuff has always felt a little shoehorned in here. It's kind of a nuts-and-gum combination. I can imagine a version that jettisons Variant Loki entirely and focuses entirely on Mobius, Sylvie, and Ravonna - just a straight up "TVA: The Series" - and it might honestly be a better show?
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Yeah that was the coolest thing they did by merging Immortus with He Who Remains.

This Immortus actually defeated ALL OTHER Kangs/Immortuseses, but just ended up becoming even worse than any Kang.

Yeah, even if every other Kang would inevitably do the same thing, he's the one that pulled it off. He killed not just every other Kang, but every universe that could give birth to a Kang of its own and then "pruned" the remaining universes so that they never could. One assumes multiple Kang considered using Alioth but he's the only one that actually did. That might imply he went further than any other Kang was willing to go.

It's absolutely horrific. You could never quantify how much loss of life he has directly caused because he seemingly reduced an infinitely large multiverse to a collection of several thousand universes and then basically physically removed and then brainwashed and enslaved or simply killed anyone in those thousands of universes that didn't strictly follow his Sacred Timeline to the letter.

I wouldn't be surprised if the other Kangs find out what Immortus did and are revealed to be much more reasonable or at least amenable to the idea of avoiding history repeating itself.
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,983
In the comics Ravonna was a princess of the last kingdom unconquered by Kang in the future and he spared her because he fell in love with her

And then he brings the Avengers to the future to help him get laid basically lol, stuff happens and he ends up creating a Variant of her to live with him in Limbo or something to that effect, been a long time since I read the story



Yeah I think Ravonna may actually have been one of those "both can use them" characters, but as far as I'm aware Marvel could not use Kang until they obtained the Fox rights back so they had little reason to use her.

Kang is closely associated with both F4 and Avengers/Thor, but I recall someone saying at some point that he was off-limits before.

But the TVA itself did first appear in Thor
Yeah the Kang rights seem super tricky just because of how many variations there are. I wonder if he was just off-limits to everyone. Fox sure as shit didn't use him lol