Mark Kermode: There's a whole generation of people for whom Endgame/Infinity War was the end.

BigSkinny0310 · Feb 17, 2023

Yasuke said:
It remains absolutely insane to me that "I just don't know what the plan is" is a take.

Kang straight up spells out that the heroes are interacting more and more with the multiverse in Quantumania and there will be dire consequences, but it shouldn't have even taken that lol

I'm waiting to see how or if they turn things up after the first incursion is shown. That's the point of no return. My fear is that the characters they are making projects for won't know about the incursions and thus the projects won't have the gravity they should.

JonesiiiFromtheMoon · Feb 17, 2023

Fj0823 said:

markavacado · Feb 17, 2023

I am one of these people. My only interest in Marvel media has been No way home, and that's mostly because I wanted to see Tobey, Dafoe, and Molina lmao

Charismagik · Feb 17, 2023

Pretty much was for me. I was marveled out by that point

Zeliard · Feb 17, 2023

Yasuke said:
I've lived long enough to see Cap, Iron Man and Black Widow considered A-listers lol incredible

I always felt like Iron Man and Cap were pretty big deals but maybe I was in the 90s kid bubble.

I was surprised to later find out they were apparently pretty obscure before the movies. I know they were never X-Men, Spidey, or obviously Superman/Batman but still very solidly recognizable. Maybe that was Marvel vs Capcom doing heavy lifting.

Malleymal · Feb 17, 2023

I'm checked out … I watched black panther two though on a plane last week

Yasuke · Feb 17, 2023

Zeliard said:
I always felt like Iron Man and Cap were pretty big deals but maybe I was in the 90s kid bubble

Fellow 90's kid.

They weren't shit.

Watership · Feb 17, 2023

Can't agree with those people really. I really liked almost all the Marvel films since Endgame, with only Love and Thunder and Eternals being sort of a miss for me. That's still 5 out of 7 with Spider-Man: No Way Home being a top tier MCU film for me. Yet, the party is over the MCU, at least for critics. But when I read reviews complaining "another marvel movie" I think back to the decades of bad films based on comics and think.. "Man, shut up."

SFLUFAN · Feb 17, 2023

I didn't even make it that far.

I excused myself from the MCU after GotG 2 bored me to the point of questioning the purpose of my very existence.

AniHawk · Feb 17, 2023

phase four has been like an extended epilogue. it's just curiosity of what happens next. but they're trying to build up from scratch and use remaining franchises to keep things going and they probably should have just started from scratch for phase 4 and let phase 5 be a mix of sequels to 1-3 stuff and 4 stuff.

Fj0823 · Feb 17, 2023

Yasuke said:
Fellow 90's kid.

They weren't shit.

They were the random dudes that guest starred in Spider-Man and X-Men shows.

Tace · Feb 17, 2023

Zeliard said:
I always felt like Iron Man and Cap were pretty big deals but maybe I was in the 90s kid bubble.

I was surprised to later find out they were apparently pretty obscure before the movies. I know they were never X-Men, Spidey, or obviously Superman/Batman but still very solidly recognizable. Maybe that was Marvel vs Capcom doing heavy lifting.

Yeah it's MvC making you think they were more well known. B-listers at best, more likely C listers

AstralSphere · Feb 17, 2023

I've rapidly lost interest, but that wasn't due to Endgame. After Shang Chi (which I loved) every single MCU movie has disappointed me to varying degrees to the point that I don't particularly care to watch them at all anymore outside of particular characters in the future that grab my interest. Love & Thunder was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

I've really liked some of the shows though. Hawkeye and Ms Marvel were fantastic.

Zeliard · Feb 17, 2023

Yasuke said:
Fellow 90's kid.

They weren't shit.

Cap was a bit of a WW2-era relic (much like the actual character) who fell by the wayside with all the edgy anti-heroes introduced but Iron Man always seemed pretty big to me, with an iconic look.

Would they have picked him to jump-start an entire franchise if he was a total unknown? Iron Man was basically Marvel's answer to Batman Begins after all.

thermopyle · Feb 17, 2023

None of those introduced in Phase 4 even come close to filling in the shoes of those that moved on, and even if they had the potential Marvel seemed to want to focus on so many characters none have the chance to do so. I still watch stuff on D+ but I'm pretty much done watching any of this in theaters.

toad02 · Feb 17, 2023

I've seen every MCU movie in the cinema from Iron Man until Infinity War.
After that all i've seen from MCU is Spider-man in the cinemas and Shang Chi and Wandavision at home.

Pancho · Feb 17, 2023

I haven't heard someone say that, specifically, but I do know a lot of people that went from religiously watching everything marvel to just watching a couple of things that interest them. My personal opinion: the MCU feels scattered

Yasuke · Feb 17, 2023

Zeliard said:
Cap was a bit of a WW2-era relic (much like the actual character) who fell by the wayside with all the edgy anti-heroes introduced but Iron Man always seemed pretty big to me, with an iconic look.

Would they have picked him to jump-start an entire franchise if he was a total unknown? Iron Man was basically Marvel's answer to Batman Begins after all.

Man, you can believe whatever you want, but those characters were nobody. Iron Man wasn't hand picked, he was all Marvel had left in the chest after they licensed out all their actual stars. It's one of the many things that makes the MCU a crazy success story; it was built on the backs of the characters they couldn't sell.

Art_3 · Feb 17, 2023

Zeliard said:
I always felt like Iron Man and Cap were pretty big deals but maybe I was in the 90s kid bubble.

I was surprised to later find out they were apparently pretty obscure before the movies. I know they were never X-Men, Spidey, or obviously Superman/Batman but still very solidly recognizable. Maybe that was Marvel vs Capcom doing heavy lifting.

Easy to know who are the big characters by seeing which ones got bought by Fox and Sony.
Cap while recognizable was a risk with international audiences and people knew the star spangled suit but i bet barely anyone knew Steve Rogers or even that his name is Steve Rogers. Iron Man was an avenger and popped up on other comics but he never had a big solo book legacy,only Demon in the Bottle and maybe Extremis.And he absolutely was not a big name,it proves how electric Downey's performance was that it makes the character look like a big deal.

D_Reynholm · Feb 17, 2023

I checked out mostly, there is just too much content and it is becoming harder to follow if you don't watch it all. I think they will struggle to sell Kang as a bigger "bad" than Thanos as well, as much as I love how Majors is playing it.

Punisher and Daredevil might bring me back. Hell bring in Wolverine and make Confederacy of Dunces so we can see Frank keep fucking up Logan. Ease off the "mega high stakes threat" stuff and just make good stories.

Chumunga64 · Feb 17, 2023

Blader said:
Era is a bubble, and the public does like or dislike things without giving too much thought or time to it.

This is the same forum that for years beat the drum of how Game of Thrones was dead because nobody talks or cares about it anymore and all those spinoffs were going to be DOA, and Avatar despite its box office success was of little pop cultural significance so the sequel couldn't possibly hope to resonate in the same way. Then House of the Dragon and Way of Water come out, do what they do, and a lot of these folks fuck off as if they never said anything at all. Era is a niche within a niche within a niche; we are not a representative sample of anything but a particular cross-section of hyper nerds.

I love how era is identical to the rest of social media because these are basically terminally online takes no matter where you go lol

Art_3 · Feb 17, 2023

Fj0823 said:
They were the random dudes that guest starred in Spider-Man and X-Men shows.

Exactly,i guess that's where Ghost Rider and Daredevil got their fame as well.

The Quentulated Mox · Feb 17, 2023

i started sliding off a few years before (didn't even see infinity war in theaters) but i did catch endgame and rather liked it despite myself. but after a blissful 2 years of no marvel, everything they've turned out since has seemed as appetizing as dishwater. i have had no desire to watch any of it and, apart from about 50% of eternals on an airplane (review: bad) i haven't. perfectly content to drop it forever and make fun of it from the sidelines

Zeliard · Feb 17, 2023

Yasuke said:
Man, you can believe whatever you want, but those characters were nobody. Iron Man wasn't hand picked, he was all Marvel had left in the chest after they licensed out all their actual stars. It's one of the many things that makes the MCU a crazy success story; it was built on the backs of the characters they couldn't sell.

I'm not at all saying I don't believe you. I was just initially surprised by it is all, and my surprise stems from the fact that you're right. Iron Man just always loomed larger in my head than that.

And yes it's very impressive they managed to make him not only as recognizable as any other superhero but even central to their decade-long saga, and to the point where Spidey even if he was introduced late is subservient and secondary. Not to mention taking a further risk with Downey Jr at the time.

They did a lot of clever shit in those early days. Probably the fact that they didn't have access to the big hitters made them a lot less complacent.

Mochi · Feb 17, 2023

It basically was for me. I'm not really interested in the new phase stuff.

Deleted member 26526 · Feb 17, 2023

Have to agree. I'm in that bubble

I can't get excited for any of the new releases like I used to. I have no idea what's supposed to be happening.

And I can't be bothered to watch a million and one shows to find out

PeskyToaster · Feb 17, 2023

excelsiorlef said:
You have zero grasp for how numbers and figures work

Please explain in terms of numbers and figures how 2.7 billion is smaller than 1.9 bill or 800 mill. Remember that the alligator eats the bigger number and that's how you know which is a greater than sign.

SilkySm00th · Feb 17, 2023

Comparing the end of Phase 3 stuff to the beginning of Phase 4 is kind of unfair. It's like comparing the Climactic ending and resolution of one book to the opening chapters of the next and using that to decide what's hot so at least I'd take his comment with a bit of salt....

With that in mind - I think that's a fair statement for people to make. It takes time to wind up that interest in characters again and Chadwick passing had to chop the knees out of their plans for moving into whatever the next Avengers is going to be. There's no universe where T'Challa wasn't supposed to be the next team leader. Having to build up that interest and wind together new stories while also kind of dovetailing the end of the Infinity Saga into the next movies is a lot more early chess type of setup that just has less investment. Their initial outings afterwards came across as a little scattershot as well. Perlmutter or whoever delaying a Black-Widow movie until after she was dead in the mainline series was a fucking travesty and did nothing to help the film be successful. Felt like a few little decisions like that (especially inside D+ shows) hurt some of the initial interest of this phase as well.

Still - gotta give it time. I am confident that Marvel will pull out every ounce of magic they have left to make sure they cast someone perfect for Wolverine when the time comes and they'll just print fucking money for 3 or 4 years in a row again.

ArcLyte · Feb 17, 2023

I'm such a sucker that I will continue to watch them, but yeah I haven't really been invested since Endgame, maybe Shang-Chi or Eternals.

Tace · Feb 17, 2023

PeskyToaster said:
Please explain in terms of numbers and figures how 2.7 billion is smaller than 1.9 bill or 800 mill. Remember that the alligator eats the bigger number and that's how you know which is a greater than sign.

But didn't you say Avatar 2 was able to slot itself in as a success? But according to this logic how can that be if it made less than Avatar 1? Isn't it a failure as well?

So? Which is it?

AceStrimmer · Feb 17, 2023

I would have said I was in that camp, especially as my two boys are now teenagers, but Antman 3 has actually turned me around! Even just the ending before the credits has me wanting to see more.

I guess it's because I view this latest film as more a Giant-sized issue than anything in a continuous story, which works for me.

Cruets · Feb 17, 2023

Down to D-list characters, of course no one cares. Get to the X-Men already

RowdyReverb · Feb 17, 2023

That's me. I couldn't get into Black Widow or Eternals. No time for all the TV shows

Donepalace · Feb 17, 2023

Lol ridiculous so I'm guessing they just decided to unend it for Spider-Man no way home then there is some ok MCU shows Loki being the best one , Shang chi being a good movie

The reality is covid didn't help the current phase endgame was lucky it got in there before covid

Guaranteed if they pull out Toby maguire and Hugh jackman for this avengers secret war thing to take down the new big bad hype will be through the roof again

Donepalace · Feb 17, 2023

Cruets said:
Down to D-list characters, of course no one cares. Get to the X-Men already

Funny you say that no cared about iron man Thor or captain America when they started off yet look what happened

ZeoVGM · Feb 17, 2023

Cruets said:
Down to D-list characters, of course no one cares. Get to the X-Men already

The revisionist history regarding the MCU is so interesting to watch.

Sometimes, it's pretending that Thanos was a constant threat throughout the first three phases.

Other times, it's pretending that Iron Man and Captain America and Guardians of the Galaxy weren't C-list and D-list characters that no one cared about until the MCU made people care about them.

But even then, the idea that "no one cares" simply doesn't make sense because -- as has been noted numerous times -- the box office results of the films remain steady and the TV shows have largely been popular and successful. If "no one cared," this would be reflected in the numbers.

Calamari41 · Feb 17, 2023

Donepalace said:
Funny you say that no cared about iron man Thor or captain America when they started off yet look what happened

It's been 4 years since Endgame. If it's this easy, why have they chosen not to make any of these new characters as popular as Iron Man?

Linkified · Feb 17, 2023

I feel with Phase 3 having such a clear ending it has led to the problems of less focus on the 'Multiverse' part and sooo many projects Feige and the leadership team haven't vetted writers/directors enough and lack of oversight from Feige.

Really after Phase 3 there should of been an Epilogue Phase of the Mulitverse Saga, move the following projects into this into:

Spider-man Far From Home
Wanda Vision
Falcon and Winter Soldier
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Black Panther 2

Then start Phase 4 by introducing new characters like Shang Chi and Moon Knight with it leading up to Dr Strange and Multiverse of Madness being the Avengers like team up movie.

We know Covid causes it fair share of issues honestly they should of delayed the content until the first project could come out *shrugs*

Fisty · Feb 17, 2023

Crazy to think what would have happened if covid hit a year earlier. Endgame was a huge moment

SilverX · Feb 17, 2023

ZeoVGM said:
The revisionist history regarding the MCU is so interesting to watch.

Sometimes, it's pretending that Thanos was a constant threat throughout the first three phases.

Other times, it's pretending that Iron Man and Captain America and Guardians of the Galaxy weren't C-list and D-list characters that no one cared about until the MCU made people care about them.

But even then, the idea that "no one cares" simply doesn't make sense because -- as has been noted numerous times -- the box office results of the films remain steady and the TV shows have largely been popular and successful. If "no one cared," this would be reflected in the numbers.

Yet somehow people knew who Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc. were because they saw them plastered allover comics, video games, and reference in 80´s and 90´s movies,.

Just because they were mismanaged doesn´t mean they were NOT some of Marvels most iconic heroes.

Charamiwa · Feb 17, 2023

With these "phases" you just know there's going to be heavy nostalgia wars in the future. Like some old timer phase 1 fans will be insufferable in a few year.

ZeoVGM · Feb 17, 2023

SilverX said:
Yet somehow people knew who Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc. were because they saw them plastered allover comics, video games, and reference in 80´s and 90´s movies,.

Just because they were mismanaged doesn´t mean they were NOT some of Marvels most iconic heroes.

Yes, some of Marvel's most iconic heroes -- in the eyes of comic book fans.

The average person had absolutely no clue who Iron Man or Thor was before the MCU. This is especially true on a worldwide scale.

They were C-tier characters.

Wrexis · Feb 17, 2023

SilverX said:
Just because they were mismanaged doesn´t mean they were NOT some of Marvels most iconic heroes.

A character can be iconic and not overwhelming popular. I can think of half a dozen iconic gaming characters that people wouldn't know outside Era.

MazeHaze · Feb 17, 2023

Yeah the thing is even though the MCU made some b listers poppin, those characters still had big legacies behind them for people to read about and shit. Tons of books. Some of the newer MCU additions have cool stories but then there's shit like they don't even have an ongoing Ms. Marvel book right now

RowdyReverb · Feb 17, 2023

Zeliard said:
I always felt like Iron Man and Cap were pretty big deals but maybe I was in the 90s kid bubble.

I was surprised to later find out they were apparently pretty obscure before the movies. I know they were never X-Men, Spidey, or obviously Superman/Batman but still very solidly recognizable. Maybe that was Marvel vs Capcom doing heavy lifting.

I really only knew Iron Man and Cap from MvC and cameos on the Spider-Man animated series. Also the obscure SNES game "War of the Gems" introduced me to the whole infinity gem concept

Moara · Feb 17, 2023

I'll still watch a marvel thing here and there if I hear it's good, but I'm definitely not trying to 'keep up' with the mcu anymore by watching everything as they release

SilverX · Feb 17, 2023

ZeoVGM said:
Yes, some of Marvel's most iconic heroes -- in the eyes of comic book fans.

The average person had absolutely no clue who Iron Man or Thor was before the MCU. This is especially true on a worldwide scale.

They were C-tier character.

Marvel has been more than just comics for decades. Why do you think Marvel vs. Street Fighter happened in the 90´s on the PS1? Their reach was way bigger by the time the MCU was planned, they wouldnt have started with Iron Man and Hulk if that were not the case. Its kind of sad that the failure of the cartoons has people thinking they werent popular enough or known enough, that is the only revisionism here.

Wrexis said:
A character can be iconic and not overwhelming popular. I can think of half a dozen iconic gaming characters that people wouldn't know outside Era.

Gaming characters did not have the reach comic book characters have had in film and TV until far more recently in comparison. Many, many kids have referenced these characters or wore their merch throughout the decades and it extends into people having familiarity with the character. And thats all thats needed.

Marvel has always been a big name with DC, lets not pretend the masses heard about their characters (outside Spider-Man and the X-Men) thanks to Disney

Tace · Feb 17, 2023

SilverX said:
Yet somehow people knew who Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc. were because they saw them plastered allover comics, video games, and reference in 80´s and 90´s movies,.

Just because they were mismanaged doesn´t mean they were NOT some of Marvels most iconic heroes.

To a comic book fan, sure. If you think anybody beyond die hards knew anything real about them like their name and origin like Spidey/Bats/Supes I have a bridge to sell you.

Donepalace · Feb 17, 2023

Calamari41 said:
It's been 4 years since Endgame. If it's this easy, why have they chosen not to make any of these new characters as popular as Iron Man?

I'd say
doctor strange making almost 1 billion
Shang chi's debut movie making 400 million in the mid covid era

Is pretty damm good and are easily new chosen characters but yes ignore all of that

Fj0823 · Feb 17, 2023

Tace said:
To a comic book fan, sure. If you think anybody beyond die hards knew anything real about them like their name and origin like Spidey/Bats/Supes I have a bridge to sell you.

yeah this.
"They appeared in a fighting game and pepsi cards back in the 90s" isn't the gotcha you think it is.

Outside of the X-Men and Spiderman their next big thing was the F4 and Hulk.

There's a reason why we saw stuff like this back in 2008:

Mark Kermode: There's a whole generation of people for whom Endgame/Infinity War was the end.

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.

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