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Nov 27, 2017
680
I think it was pretty funny tbh. Hopefully I won't get in trouble from the law for saying that. Wait.. is that sirens?..what..no...what are you doing?...get off me..I...I couldn't help laugh!...it's a pug..doing nazi salutes to get treats..it was funny god damnit let me go!...context matteeeerrrrrrssss!!!

*and he was never seen again. The dog however is still at large inciting hatred against the Jews.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
What a narrow-minded way to look at this situation, to assume anyone defending him is some internet troll who doesn't want his right to talk shit to people taken away. It doesn't surprise me now that you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest bit as some undercover right-winger. This is about not wanting to allow the government to not only determine what is considered offensive speech, but to jail people based on that distinction. How much power do you want to government to have over it's people? You honestly trust the government enough to enforce that kind of policy effectively? You want everybody filing police reports every time they are offended by somebody somebody else says? Can you imagine what a mess that would be?
This goes beyond offense. He was inciting violence when he said "gas the jews". That's not something the govt. had to determine, it's something he stated.
 

Noodles

Member
Oct 27, 2017
56
how about you learn what the definition of fascism is before you try to talk okay?
How is it normalizing it? If anything its mocking it. As explained the joke is that a cute animal is doing the most awful thing. For that to be the joke he must think Nazis are the most awful thing and is spreading that opinion.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
How is it normalizing it? If anything its mocking it. As explained the joke is that a cute animal is doing the most awful thing. For that to be the joke he must think Nazis are the most awful thing and is spreading that opinion.

it requires actual thought to understand that though. This is 2018, surface level only please
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,500
United States
how about you learn what the definition of fascism is before you try to talk okay?
Let's learn together:

Does supporting criminal punishment / penalties for a joke involving naziism sound like a fascist reaction?

Authoritarian viewpoint - check
No tolerance for opposing opinions - check

Of course, I'm open to learning a different, better term. So if you'd like to suggest a term that better describes the authoritarian, no tolerance point of view you're expressing here, I'm all ears (seriously).
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Yeah, telling a dog "gas the Jews" in order to get it to raise its paw is truly clever, and insanely deep satire. Really warps your world view once you understand the humour of it.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Authoritarianism is a major part of fascism and this whole situation is very authoritarian.

While they are unrelated topics, the seemingly sizeable support on this forum for a state wide enforced death penalty, and now genuinely putting people in jail for stupid offensive youtube videos, it's safe to say there's a fair few people on here who'd claim "I'm not authoritarian", when they really are.

The irony being for many generations authoritarianism was largely associated with the right wing.

Heck, freedom of speech was largely associated with the left wing, and now many are running away from it to claim its exclusively a right wing thing. Starting to melt my brain a little understanding cultural shifts in "political sides".

Obviously political sides are no binary (try making a binary out of 7 billion people), but a sizeable portion of the youth who fill up each side seem to be switching "sides" on many issues around "big government" and personal freedoms.
 
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Nov 27, 2017
680

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
I keep bringing South Park up since they have been making Jew jokes for decades. I wonder how you feel about that, would jail be warranted for the creators of the show?

I don't watch kids shows so you'll have to fill me in. Did they make an explicit call for violence against Jews? If yes, then they should be prosecuted.

EDIT: also there's a difference between a character in written media saying this an a regular citizen saying it out of his own mouth
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,191
I keep bringing South Park up since they have been making Jew jokes for decades. I wonder how you feel about that, would jail be warranted for the creators of the show?
Maybe I am way off base here, but I would also like to ask that if hate in media can lead to real world hate/discrimination/violence, why is the idea of something like violence in video games leading to real world hate and violence so easily dismissed?
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
I hear you saying it wasn't a good joke, which is fair, but are you saying it wasn't a joke?

I've shared my opinion in the early pages in this thread, being the part of the minority that is targeted here (i.e. a Jew):
I don't mind teaching the dog the nazi salute, even though I don't find it particularly funny. It targets the perpetrators of the Nazi regime (i.e. the Nazis).
I do think that the command (repeatedly telling the dog "gas the Jews"), however, crosses the line, and targets the Jews. Even if the guy doesn't agree with it and was genuinely joking, there are people who DO want to kill Jews, and making this phrase more common and acceptable to be used because you're "just joking" creates an environment in which the people who want to kill Jews will be able to say so without repercussion. And if you think this is all just conjecture, you just need to look at the rise of racist incidents in the US and UK, where the racists feel empowered because they "won". They now feel empowered to state their racism out loud, and even assault people.

You have this problem of empowering the wrong people with any joke that is a mere "I can't believe he said that!"-level that targets a marginalized group. What would your reaction be if this guy would've taught the dog to play dead at "let's hang the blacks", or taught him to shake at "let's shoot the fags"?

Do I think he should be tried with jail time for it? No. I do think a fine would have been appropriate.
 

Noodles

Member
Oct 27, 2017
56
I don't watch kids shows so you'll have to fill me in. Did they make an explicit call for violence against Jews? If yes, then they should be prosecuted.
Not really a kids show, but way to try to make yourself sound higher. But yes. One episode an 8 year old tricks a bunch of Christians who were obsessed with the passion of christ to nazi march against Jews.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
I guess I don't really understand what the quality of the satire has to do with anything.

It doesn't matter how effective it is as a joke. It's still a joke. We shouldn't be advocating for edgy jokes to be criminal offenses.

That post you quoted was in response to:
it requires actual thought to understand that though. This is 2018, surface level only please
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Maybe I am way off base here, but I would also like to ask that if hate in media can lead to real world hate/discrimination/violence, why is the idea of something like violence in video games leading to real world hate and violence so easily dismissed?
It's not easily dismissed, at least not by anyone who is trying to have a legitimate discussion about it. Gamers only dismiss it because their only motivation is protecting their vidya.
 
Nov 27, 2017
680
I don't watch kids shows so you'll have to fill me in. Did they make an explicit call for violence against Jews? If yes, then they should be prosecuted.

Yea pretty much one of the characters does this regularly. My 4 yr old watches it, it's pretty usual for kids stuff these days but South Park sometimes takes it too far even for my tastes.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
While they are unrelated topics, the seemingly sizeable support on this forum for a state wide enforced death penalty, and now genuinely putting people in jail for stupid offensive youtube videos, it's safe to say there's a fair few people on here who'd claim "I'm not authoritarian", when they really are.

The irony being for many generations authoritarianism was largely associated with the right wing.

Heck, freedom of speech was largely associated with the left wing, and now many are running away from it to claim its exclusively a right wing thing. Starting to melt my brain a little understanding cultural shifts in political sides.
I agree, as Walker said in the video you linked before: it's bizarre.

The claim that freedom of speech is now just a "right wing talking point" genuinely leaves me speechless (pardon the pun).

I would never have expected that believing authoritarianism to be a bad thing would be a controversial point of view. Especially not in a left leaning community.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Yea pretty much one of the characters does this regularly. My 4 yr old watches it, it's pretty usual for kids stuff these days but South Park sometimes takes it too far even for my tastes.
I edited my post to add in that I think there's a difference between writing a character that calls for violence against protected groups, and a citizen actually speaking those same words.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
This goes beyond offense. He was inciting violence when he said "gas the jews". That's not something the govt. had to determine, it's something he stated.

He was clearly being sardonic, though, by illustrating the destructive and hateful ideology of Nazis to enhance the joke of being a 'bad influence' on the dog. Any reasonable person could see it was clearly not a directive for anyone to commit violence. It's disingenuous at best and obtuse at worst to suggest otherwise.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I don't watch kids shows so you'll have to fill me in. Did they make an explicit call for violence against Jews? If yes, then they should be prosecuted.

EDIT: also there's a difference between a character in written media saying this an a regular citizen saying it out of his own mouth

Yeah, everyone knows there is a difference between a professional comedian and an amateur comedian.

Social consequences tend to handle any amateurs thinking they are professional comedians saying shit in public. A common one often being getting fired if you behave in public in a way that the company you work for doesn't like. Why do you think many employers trawl social media these days? What you say can have many consequences in the era we live in, because more people than ever use things like FB/Twitter and YT.

We shouldn't just be criminalizing any jokes in public if they come from a citizen who is an amateur vs a professional. You do realize professional comedians and writers are still citizens? They don't have super powers just because they are fortunate enough not to be working full time in a supermarket.

What they do have is often jobs or roles where they can offend without their "boss" firing them and the police arresting them. Usually because they are their own boss and the police will "shockingly" accept context when a professional comedian makes a holocaust or Hitler joke.

The UK communications act of 2003 for being grossly offensive can cover God knows how many British professional comedians. The UK Government as I said above seems to be okay accepting context in some cases, but not in others. Which is a huge issue many have with them railroading unknown citizens through the courts for the same kinds of jokes the pros make. Social consequences should handle amateurs biting off more than they can chew, not handcuffs.

As you implied you'd want to see the South Park writers prosecuted I guess I'll just have to accept you are part of the incredibly authoritarian left wing that seems to be on the rise. But correct me if you associate with being on the right, which is somewhere in the 90s I would expect to see calls for the South Park writers to be jailed.
 
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Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
He was clearly being sardonic, though, by illustrating the destructive and hateful ideology of Nazis to enhance the joke of being a 'bad influence' on the dog. Any reasonable person could see it was clearly not a directive for anyone to commit violence. It's disingenuous at best and obtuse at worst to suggest otherwise.

exactly
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Yeah, everyone knows there is a difference between a professional comedian and an amateur comedian.

Social consequences tend to handle any amateurs thinking they are professional comedians saying shit in public. A common one often being getting fired if you behave in public in a way that the company you work for doesn't like. Why do you think many employers trawl social media these days? What you say can have many consequences in the era we live in, because more people than ever use things like FB/Twitter and YT.

We shouldn't just be criminalizing any jokes in public if they come from a citizen who is an amateur vs a professional. You do realize professional comedians and writers are still citizens? They don't have super powers just because they are fortunate enough not to be working full time in a supermarket.

What they do have is often jobs or roles where they can offend without their "boss" firing them and the police arresting them. Usually because they are their own boss and the police will "shockingly" accept context when a professional comedian makes a holocaust or Hitler joke.

The UK communications act of 2003 for being grossly offensive can cover God knows how many British professional comedians. The UK Government as I said above seems to be okay accepting context in some cases, but not in others. Which is a huge issue many have with them railroading unknown citizens through the courts for the same kinds of jokes the pros make. Social consequences should handle amateurs biting off more than they can chew, not handcuffs.

I'm not talking about their professions as comedians.

A character saying "gas the jews" is not the same as me speaking the same words on camera.

And you guys keep saying it's a joke, but do you really know? Can anyone but the guy who posted the video be aware of his intentions?

The reality is... the law doesn't exist for that purpose. A crime is a crime even if "you didn't rly mean it ;)" If you don't want to be prosecuted for a hate crime, don't call for violence against Jews
435643482267451392.png
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I'm not talking about their professions as comedians.

A character saying "gas the jews" is not the same as me speaking the same words on camera.

And you guys keep saying it's a joke, but do you really know? Can anyone but the guy who posted the video be aware of his intentions?

The reality is... the law doesn't exist for that purpose. A crime is a crime even if "you didn't rly mean it ;)" If you don't want to be prosecuted for a hate crime, don't call for violence against Jews
435643482267451392.png

We don't arrest and lock people up for thought crime. Anyone with a brain can see this video is edgy comedy, not actually trying to bring about Nazism in the UK via a pug.

Prosecution for actual violence would fall under incitement laws by the way. The charge here was being grossly offensive. So even the courts in the UK couldn't get this charged as violence.

Incitement would carry far stronger sentences and likely jail time for sure.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
We don't arrest and lock people up for thought crime. Anyone with a brain can see this video is edgy comedy, not actually trying to bring about Nazism in the UK via a pug.

Prosecution for actual violence would fall under incitement laws by the way. The charge here was being grossly offensive. So even the courts in the UK couldn't get this charged as violence.
it's not a thought crime when he said "gas the jews"
 

Deleted member 19844

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Oct 28, 2017
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I've shared my opinion in the early pages in this thread, being the part of the minority that is targeted here (i.e. a Jew):
I don't mind teaching the dog the nazi salute, even though I don't find it particularly funny. It targets the perpetrators of the Nazi regime (i.e. the Nazis).
I do think that the command (repeatedly telling the dog "gas the Jews"), however, crosses the line, and targets the Jews. Even if the guy doesn't agree with it and was genuinely joking, there are people who DO want to kill Jews, and making this phrase more common and acceptable to be used because you're "just joking" creates an environment in which the people who want to kill Jews will be able to say so without repercussion. And if you think this is all just conjecture, you just need to look at the rise of racist incidents in the US and UK, where the racists feel empowered because they "won". They now feel empowered to state their racism out loud, and even assault people.

You have this problem of empowering the wrong people with any joke that is a mere "I can't believe he said that!"-level that targets a marginalized group. What would your reaction be if this guy would've taught the dog to play dead at "let's hang the blacks", or taught him to shake at "let's shoot the fags"?

Do I think he should be tried with jail time for it? No. I do think a fine would have been appropriate.
If the context was a joke (for example, make the dog racist or make the dog homophobic to get back at the girlfriend), and those lines were used I would have the same reaction: he should not be criminally penalized because the context is a joke and not an attempt to incite violence. He can be socially vilified, video reported to youtube, etc. But not a criminal penalty as it is clearly not inciting violence.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
it's not a thought crime when he said "gas the jews"

Thoughtcrime is you implying that you know the context better than what is presented, so you state you can either read someone's mind or you state "you can never know" as if that is a valid answer.

A criminal court is supposed to be able to discern the truth before it sentences, not sentence people as "we can never know so better default to the crime we think someone is thinking".

Hence why there was no charge for incitement here, as it's patently obvious this isn't a literal call to kill people. The court charged him with being "grossly offensive" under the 2003 communications act.
 

Deleted member 19844

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And you guys keep saying it's a joke, but do you really know? Can anyone but the guy who posted the video be aware of his intentions?
Honest question - do you generally have difficulty understanding whether something is a joke or not? Have other people told you this or have you noticed that others see something as a joke or intended as comedy, while you don't quite understand how it's a joke?
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
it's not a thought crime when he said "gas the jews"

Yes it is. He was not directing anyone to gas jews. He was mocking the cruelty and brutality of the Nazi regime. Doesn't matter if I thought it was hack and unfunny, personally. It was lampooning the hateful ways of the Nazis, not declaring their acts just and telling others to do it. You'd have to take it out of context to frame it as a legitimate directive for violence against Jews. Unless you think that was a coded message intended for people to hear and follow? Surely nobody can argue that in good faith.

I think the video was awful. Hack. Lame. Boring. Ironically, rather safe as far as comedy goes. It was vicariously embarrassing to watch. But, that doesn't matter. The context and intent should matter to everyone, and it should be apparent that it was clearly not intended to spread hate or direct anyone toward violence. It was just a lame joke about how bad nazis were and how his dog can raise its arm and hold it up, mocking their silly fascist salute.
 

Real Hero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,329
Society should police itself in matters like this. It is extremely authoritarian and displays a love of being told what to do when you demand the law act upon jokes you don't like.
 

ham bone

Alt account
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
732
Honest question - do you generally have difficulty understanding whether something is a joke or not? Have other people told you this or have you noticed that others see something as a joke or intended as comedy, while you don't quite understand how it's a joke?

Honestly, I've noticed it a lot around here. There are many literal minded people.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Honest question - do you generally have difficulty understanding whether something is a joke or not? Have other people told you this or have you noticed that others see something as a joke or intended as comedy, while you don't quite understand how it's a joke?

No, I just think you guys give these edgelords a bit too much credit. They claim everything they do is a joke.
 

Deleted member 19844

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No, I just think you guys give these edgelords a bit too much credit. They claim everything they do is a joke.
I am honestly baffled that you saw the video and can't see, plainly and clearly, that it's a joke. For me it wasn't funny, and it was in very poor taste, but it's so obvious that it's a joke that it feels like I'm pointing at a chair, and saying "that's a chair," and you're saying, "you keep saying that's a chair - but do you really know?" Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly?
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
No, I just think you guys give these edgelords a bit too much credit. They claim everything they do is a joke.

And it was up to a court of law to discern whether he was an edgelord, whatever that entails, versus someone more nefarious hiding behind such a descriptor. As I said to you, we cannot just lock people up for thoughtcrime because we don't like them.

That falls precariously into the "he is no angel" territory. Because you don't like someone, and get annoyed they may be innocent of a specific charge/crime, you get angry/frustrated and want them done in some other way to satisfy a "bad person" having something "bad" happen to them.

An enlightened and free society cannot operate like this. Especially not in a courtroom. Courts are supposed to be neutral areas where the objective truth or evidence points to an outcome, not feelings and how much you really don't like whoever is in the courtroom. As pointed out by Jonathan Pie, outwith his persona, even "bad people" still have protections and rights.

He was not charged for incitement over a 2-year court case where the prosecutor did try to push for more serious charges. Think about why after 2 years all they were able to get stick was being "grossly offensive"? Maybe it's because context did have to matter at the end of the day, and as I said, it's patently obvious this is an attempt at being edgy versus literally trying to act as a training camp for killing Jewish people via the means of a pug.

The "grossly offensive" charge is still coming under scrutiny though, as the UK police and Government seem to be abusing it to randomly go after people and get them fined/community service/ankle bracelets. It's still a criminal prosecution and a criminal record.

Baddiel's take on this is worth reading

What this story is about, really, is going from a place of certainty to one of uncertainty. I was certain I supported Dankula in principle; now I am not. Unfortunately, this is also something that the Daily Stormer actively advocates: remember "the undoctrinated should not be able to tell if we are joking or not". All of us who would instinctively vote for comedy and free speech in the face of legal clampdowns and other restrictions need to be aware of the doublethink discourse at work, that the thing we most prize might be being used against us. (I do also wonder whether any Jewish schoolchildren are now hearing "gas the Jews!" shouted laughingly at them, because some other children saw a man say it on the internet to his dog and it was so lulz.)

But in the end, I have to come down on what I think is the side of comedy. Partly because my own currently touring show, which spills my family's secrets across the stage, dances all over the line of what is and isn't acceptable to joke about. There is a story towards the end of the show involving my dementia-ridden father essentially offering up the possibility of a sexually criminal act to a female mourner at my mother's funeral, which, every night, gets a laugh which is not just a laugh: I can hear in it shock and uncertainty and disgust and offence, too. And this is a type of laughter that I believe comedy should aspire to, because it is an art form.

I'll leave you with this. The funniest thing ever made, Peter Cook and Dudley Moore's Derek and Clive, includes a sketch in which Cook improvises a bit about watching a documentary about Nazis and being so unconsciously influenced that he got on the bus to Golders Green, and – to quote Clive – "must have slaughtered at least 18,000 before I realized what I was doing". Cook isn't really satirizing Nazis there. He is not being Mel Brooks or Sacha Baron Cohen or Chaplin; he's simply enjoying the thrill of saying something so awful in a throwaway manner. It's hilarious. It's also, in my view, ethically and comically more or less what Count Dankula did in his video. Obviously Cook was a genius while Mark Meechan is not. But we can't put people in prison for not being geniuses. And if there is a comedy genius in Meechan's video, surely it is the pug – even though he was only obeying orders.

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/count-dankula-nazi-dog-baddiel/
 
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woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
I am honestly baffled that you saw the video and can't see, plainly and clearly, that it's a joke. For me it wasn't funny, and it was in very poor taste, but it's so obvious that it's a joke that it feels like I'm pointing at a chair, and saying "that's a chair," and you're saying, "you keep saying that's a chair - but do you really know?" Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly?

I guess what I'm saying is that it being a joke doesn't make it innocent and it can still be offensive, hateful, and indicative of questionable views.
 

Corncob

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,609
UK
If he taught a parrot to say the n-word, recorded that and put it on Youtube, would the "it's just a joke" argument still be seen as acceptable by the majority? Not entirely sure how I feel about this particular case.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
If he taught a parrot to say the n-word, recorded that and put it on Youtube, would the "it's just a joke" argument still be seen as acceptable by the majority? Not entirely sure how I feel about this particular case.

Socially no, legally yes.

To frame it as "acceptable" without nuance means people might think you're asking them if they think it's "emotionally acceptable". Shock humour such as teaching a parrot to say the N word is pretty sad, and you probably deserve some shit to come your way for being a bit of a dick.

But you should not have the cops banging on your door to take you away in handcuffs and be criminally prosecuted. If your employer wants to sack you because it goes viral, or your GF leave you, or your parents kick you out the house, or 10,000 people on Twitter call you a cunt whilst YouTube suspends you, fine. Not the cops and the courts for the scenario you painted though.

The girl who was prosecuted and got a criminal record and a state-enforced ankle bracelet/curfew for posting the N word on instagram as a lyric quote is something kind of like the example you created. That is, in my opinion, even more ridiculous than this case.

District Judge Jack McGarva said: "There is no place in civil society for language like that. Everyone with an Instagram account could view this content. The lyrics also encourage killing and robbing, so are grossly offensive."

He ordered Russell to comply with a curfew order restricting her movements between 8pm and 8am for 8 weeks.

She was ordered to wear an electronic tag on her ankle during this period of time. Russell was also ordered to pay £500 toward costs and a £85 surcharge.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-who-posted-rap-lyrics-14543694

Police/the state putting you under house arrest over something like this is absolutely ridiculous. Not as bad as putting you in prison, but halfway there.
 

¡Hip Hop!

Member
Nov 9, 2017
1,837
It's insane to me that this ended up being labeled a hate crime, poor taste or not. It's not at all surprising to see some of the replies here though. Don't make this the mountain you want to die on. You're embarrassing yourselves.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
It's hilarious that he thinks right wing trash will stay focused on this or that the appeal will be over soon enough for him to capitalise the publicity from this into changing the law.

He'll be a footnote by March. Right wingers will be losing their shit over Brexit not going the way they want it to.

Should have jailed the flithy cunt to be honest. Justice system is too lenient to trash.
Agreed. I would've expanded more on this, but I don't want to get banned again.