Man who taught dog Nazi salute found guilty of hate crime
- Thread starter EightBitNate
- Start date
I think this thread is great. When people talk about why the US needs laws against hate speech and why we're all silly for worrying about slippery slopes and the like, having good counter-examples of government over-reach along with people cheering it on is really helpful.
Imagine charging people for offensive speech/material like this in the US. More than half of the population would be imprisoned.
There would be a whole department for YouTube comments alone.
There would be a whole department for YouTube comments alone.
Neither is suspending students for using the word "fuck" outside of school hours and property, but you didn't have a problem with that? What, we suddenly talking about jokes now? What happened to stuff like that not mattering and the important thing being how it's "disrespectful" and how the "punishment might be hard" but lessons still need to be learned and stuff? Why the sudden care about free speech here and not there? What happened to coming down harsh on these incidents because these people won't face consequences otherwise and how we can't have that?
https://www.resetera.com/threads/nv...ng-f-bomb-in-a-call-to-his-congressman.30826/
You are transparent as hell, man.
Also, for reference, he wasn't actually jailed at all. See the update in this post where he was only fined like 800 pounds or whatever. No jail though, just a fine:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ma...ilty-of-hate-crime.30797/page-33#post-7123152
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tes-mark-meechan-fine-sentenced-a8317751.html
Suspending a minor from school is far more forgiving and different than convicting somebody of a hate crime and slapping them with a hefty fine. Just because I support teaching lessons to kids doesn't mean I support convicting them of crimes and having them potentially face jail time.
If you cannot see the differences between a minor and an adult or the differences between criminal hate crime conviction and school suspension you need to take a long hard look at yourself.
The £800 fine is silly.
The fact he's crowdfunded over £100,000 is just insane, don't people have real causes to donate to?
The fact he's crowdfunded over £100,000 is just insane, don't people have real causes to donate to?
Just remember, you can dismiss anything as a joke. People hiding behind the joke defence are being reallty deceptive. It's trying to give free reign for anyone to be horrible and dismiss it as j/k. It's nonsense.
He made the dog do a Nazi salute on command to various Nazi phrases. Is he a Nazi? Probably not, still doesn't give him free reign to use the phrase "kill all Jews" as a joke.
He made the dog do a Nazi salute on command to various Nazi phrases. Is he a Nazi? Probably not, still doesn't give him free reign to use the phrase "kill all Jews" as a joke.
A big issue with the type of person this attracts is that they'd rather donate to a guy making his dog do a Nazi salute than to a children's cancer or mental health charity because they're fucking garbage human beings.
Did Sasha Baron Cohen invite Paul Joseph Watson and Sargon to the Borat premiere?
Wouldn't go that far, but it's certainly gotten disheartening seeing many cool with this. I guess "let the court of public opinion decide" was never something a lot of people truly believed in and want ACTUAL courts to be involved.
It has the potential to get scary at the very least, though fortunately not here in America.
It's hilarious that he thinks right wing trash will stay focused on this or that the appeal will be over soon enough for him to capitalise the publicity from this into changing the law.
He'll be a footnote by March. Right wingers will be losing their shit over Brexit not going the way they want it to.
Should have jailed the flithy cunt to be honest. Justice system is too lenient to trash.
He'll be a footnote by March. Right wingers will be losing their shit over Brexit not going the way they want it to.
Should have jailed the flithy cunt to be honest. Justice system is too lenient to trash.
Dog should get it too IMO, the cocky little shit it is. Jokes aside, I know it's tired by now, but now we should focus on South Park for ripping on The Jews. This incident with the pug is NOTHING compared to the filth in that program that has been going on for decades. Calling for a ban of South Park is the first step, getting jail for Matt and Trey is likely out of the question since they are American, but we could go after people who watch the show. When I was at school we used to quote South Park all the time etc so many missed opportunity to clean up the scum of society. These are NOT jokes, they are NOT funny, context does NOT matter. Jailing people for comedy is ok, handing this kind of subjective power over thought and expression to the government is A GOOD THING and anyone who disagrees is just a Jew hating bigot.
I honestly hope you're joking. This would set an incredibly grim precedent on restricting freedom like many others posted.
Another site focussed on law covering this, which is a good read as is the barrister blog I posted on the previous page
http://www.keepcalmtalklaw.co.uk/offensive-jokes-becoming-criminal-count-dankulas-conviction/
I do want to see this communications act challenged, and I'm not too bothered who does it. It will be interesting to see if that 100k is spent on a lawyer or not, but if the receipts are posted it's not any worse than any number of kickstarter campaigns that raise money and have "devs" do runners.
I wouldn't donate to it, but then again the only kickstarter I've ever donated to is Shenmue. The whole concept isn't for me.
http://www.keepcalmtalklaw.co.uk/offensive-jokes-becoming-criminal-count-dankulas-conviction/
I do want to see this communications act challenged, and I'm not too bothered who does it. It will be interesting to see if that 100k is spent on a lawyer or not, but if the receipts are posted it's not any worse than any number of kickstarter campaigns that raise money and have "devs" do runners.
I wouldn't donate to it, but then again the only kickstarter I've ever donated to is Shenmue. The whole concept isn't for me.
No people refusing to understand context are the deceptive ones.
And the context argument has been used over and over ad nauseam, yet people refuse to listen. So to hell with it.
If only people upset by this took other things as seriously. Looks like he's coming out on top anyway so that's a shame seeing as how he doesn't seem like the best person.
Yeah seriously, the thought of comedy being normalized is terrifying to me. What's next, comedy movies?! Tv shows?!
People throwing down £100 donations on twitch like its nothing. Nobody donating to real causes these days. If its not donating to "just like me" personalities on youtube/twitch then money is donated to flimsy gofundme pages and those facebook post appeals.
Look at you mr big brain. Thinking you're all smart for coming up with this retort.
Let me clarify for you: quit. Normalizing. Fascist. And. Nazi. Bullshit. Even as "jokes".
In the meantime, the UK will just go after people for posting penises on police officers
I guess the killing of all white men needs to be gone after as well, even if the court can prove the context was anger/idiocy, not an actual threat
And add to that any jokes about Nazis because clearly if you make a joke about Nazis, even if it's 100x better than Meechans, you are really the literal fascist and should be jailed.
This case is a good example of when some people think they are mixing progressivism with the law, but really come out being as totalitarian/authoritarian as China/North Korea. I wouldn't be surprised to see blasphemy laws resulting in jail fully supported on this forum.
Okay? I was specifically pointing out one thing but thank you for your effort?
Your clarification was to imply that poster is normalizing actual Nazi or fascist tendencies, which is completely off-shooting the mark. Meechan is simply another example of the usual edgy free speech advocate online who should be handled by social consequences, not the law. Not unless there is incitement or direct harassment.
The irony in this case, like others, which make people on the left such an easy target for the right, is the desire for the law to be used here to jail people being far closer to how actual fascists would behave than the idiots posting edgy shit online and thinking they are funny.
Fuck sake, who's given this scumbag so much fucking money.
I heard there was also a march or something ? lol this is great
Cunt is a gendered insult which I find grossly offensive.
Should we throw you in jail too?
Also the idea that it's only right wingers who are against this is ridiculous.
Last edited:
I'm deadly serious. People have forgotten that actions have consequences and we need to make examples of a few cunts to remind everyone.
You're free to report me and if it's reaches a point where the magistrates court rules I should be jailed, sure.
And freedom to insult/freedom from consequences is a right wing talking point. Unless you're referring to the so called ''centrists" who are actually right wing, but too cowardly to admit it.
You're free to report me and if it's reaches a point where the magistrates court rules I should be jailed, sure.
And freedom to insult/freedom from consequences is a right wing talking point. Unless you're referring to the so called ''centrists" who are actually right wing, but too cowardly to admit it.
You automatically become right wing, or apparently even a fascist, if you approach this case in a certain way. Hence why many on the left will just keep their thoughts to themselves around this one. It's incredibly hard to explain that you might not like Meechan, but you still don't think the police and Government should be abusing a 2003 communications act more appropriate for the postal service/telephone calls in this way. Especially when there is multiple examples of bullshit that's gone through the courts under the charge of "grossly offensive".
Or, it's not hard to explain your stance, it's just hard to have others accept it without them saying you must like Meechan and/or approve of Tommy Robinson if you don't tow the line of "jail/prosecution is 100% acceptable here".
The Barrister's blog conclusion was suited
A lot of his public support are an unsavoury bunch, but that doesn't mean decent people should be scared or chased off sharing a differing opinion here than "this youtube video should lead to a jail sentence". Being on the left can be incredibly hostile in topics like this, so as I said, many simply won't engage as it's not worth having a million accusations fly back at you that aren't true.
^ Case in point, any other opinion than mine must = "cowardly centrist who is actually right wing".
Watch out, here comes a five thousand word post to say something that could be said with five from Audioboxer to put us all to sleep.
I would rather put people to sleep than unironically wish to seek an authoritarian future where everyone you don't like is jailed.
But please continue to tell the world how anyone who thinks differently than you must be a secret centrist who is too cowardly to say they are right-wing. That seems like a well balanced and reasonable way to sum up everyone.
No offense but you're basically resorting to a personal attack since you can't a really build an argument. This is clearly a pretty complex topic and you being incredibly reductionist and acting like a child, discarding anyone elses words, when people disagree isn't really doing your case any favors at all.
Clearly the guy made a shit video we can all agree. However when people see this as government overreach, your crying wolf isn't actually bringing anything to the debate and just trying to avoid the topic all together. Do you actually have anything to offer on that topic or rather throw accusations at people who see there is clearly some complexity here?
When did making observations about a person's posting habits become personal attacks?
And it's not a highly complex issue. Man teaches his dog to be offensive, is arrested for said offence and fined. All the talk about him being potentially jailed was always bullshit, all the talk about it setting a precedent was bullshit, all the talk about government overreach was bullshit.
What people who side with this guy want is rhe right to offend without consequence. They want to attack groups of people and then claim "it was just a joke bro, why are you so sensitive. Whatever happened to free speech"
With the incel murders in canada i think we should be extra alert to people flying shit ideologies under the facade of "jokes" and Irony. These videos normalize and give traction to movements the end up with people dead. What can we do if youtube favors profits over life and we need governments to keep these platforms in check.
Nope, 100% wrong. Most agree when you are offensive you may face social consequences such as blowback, criticism or private institutes like your employer or even nightclubs/bars/pubs or wherever banning you or firing you.
What a sizeable chunk of people, of whom there is left-leaning voters, are saying is criminalizing being offensive is much different than facing social consequences for being offensive. Whether you agree or not your own opinion of the courts/Government not being strict enough and you wanting a jail sentence is actually pretty right-wing/authoritarian.
Yet yourself and others are always so quick to jump on the pulse of accusing everyone else of being right-wing or "secret centrists". Historically the left was not the side wanting to fly off the rails trying to criminalize as much speech as possible. That was always the right-wing wanting that sort of control at a Government level, presumably because they didn't very much like satire/offence/jokes/mockery/ridicule.
I am inclined to agree with you, I find it quite strange that an offensive joke could potentially land you in prison, and even stranger that people here on this site would have been happy for him to go to prison over a crap video.
Because you wete acting childish and you still are. Again you've completely overlooked any actual concerns people may have despite being on the same political side.
You acting as if there's no discussion to be had is clearly wrong as the story has developed a fair amount of interest to the public. Personally I was OK with him getting whatever comes at him too and you can probably dig it up in this thread, because the guy is clearly not the type I care for personally. To pretend there's no discussion to be had about the case though is ridiculous.
The things people are voicing concern about can be detached from the person it all started from.
Especially when you pay attention to the history of convictions under the communications act in the UK and you realize, no, this is not all just about Markus Meechan - https://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Communications_Act_2003/Section_127
His case may have gone viral and arguably, unfortunately, thrust him into the limelight, but there exists a history to look into if anyone wants to put some effort into research where there has been other cases that shouldn't have been going through UK courts. That Snapp Dog instagram case is another recently which is absolutely stupid. Social consequences should have dealt with it too, not prosecution.
Ironically, you'll even find a lot of people on the left criticising this will indeed support forms of hate speech laws, and aren't free speech absolutists. I'm not a free speech absolutist, but I do think the UK has its balance out of line and is surfacing some examples of police and the courts abusing speech regulation. Especially that 2003 communications act which I've sourced both a Barrister and other lawyers say is not fit for purpose for how it is being used now (it is more relevant to telephone/postal service).
Re-linking for reading, but sorry, it's not 5 word blogposts
http://www.keepcalmtalklaw.co.uk/offensive-jokes-becoming-criminal-count-dankulas-conviction/
http://barristerblogger.com/2018/03...-the-bad-law-used-to-prosecute-count-dankula/
Because guess what, these sorts of legal debates require investment, not just driveby posts and the clickbait headline generation.
Last edited:
What a narrow-minded way to look at this situation, to assume anyone defending him is some internet troll who doesn't want his right to talk shit to people taken away. It doesn't surprise me now that you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest bit as some undercover right-winger. This is about not wanting to allow the government to not only determine what is considered offensive speech, but to jail people based on that distinction. How much power do you want to government to have over it's people? You honestly trust the government enough to enforce that kind of policy effectively? You want everybody filing police reports every time they are offended by somebody somebody else says? Can you imagine what a mess that would be?
Last edited:
It does, yes- I want to be clear that free speech works quite well in the US.
I think Pie, out of character, speaks quite well here
More so touching on the left throwing the baby out with the bath water. There is truth in pointing out many on the right hide behind "freedom of speech" to try and state there should be zero consequences for whatever they say, however, this race to the bottom to outright declare "freedom of speech" exclusively as a "right-wing thing" and something that holds "zero merits" because only "racists and sexists" care about it is hyperbole to the max.
There is still value in remembering the enlightenment movement and all the uses we have of being able to speak our minds, debate, make mistakes, satirize, offend, criticise and ridicule things without sirens instantly going off and a big brother Government wishing it could incarcerate/fine everyone the second someone says "I'm offended".
You really do start to approach blasphemy law levels of craziness when you obsess over treating everyone who says they're offended as "gospel truth". You can listen to and appreciate someone may well be offended, whilst still politely inferring that they may well need to deal with their offence taking without always calling on the police and the state to handle it for them.
Theocracies are good examples in the world for watching how it is when the state and police handle "offence taking" to the extreme. Theocracies do not "grow" overnight, they require legal code written and enforced, which Governments over time, especially Conservative/right-wing Governments, begin to use and abuse more frequently. The UK is having some cases here and there now where the Government is undoubtedly in my opinion, overstepping the mark and criminalizing shit that should simply be handled in a free and enlightened society with social consequences. Not legal. Save legal consequences for situations that actually merit it.
Dumb ass youtube videos and rap lyrics on instagram do not merit court cases and potentially state incarceration.
More so touching on the left throwing the baby out with the bath water. There is truth in pointing out many on the right hide behind "freedom of speech" to try and state there should be zero consequences for whatever they say, however, this race to the bottom to outright declare "freedom of speech" exclusively as a "right-wing thing" and something that holds "zero merits" because only "racists and sexists" care about it is hyperbole to the max.
There is still value in remembering the enlightenment movement and all the uses we have of being able to speak our minds, debate, make mistakes, satirize, offend, criticise and ridicule things without sirens instantly going off and a big brother Government wishing it could incarcerate/fine everyone the second someone says "I'm offended".
You really do start to approach blasphemy law levels of craziness when you obsess over treating everyone who says they're offended as "gospel truth". You can listen to and appreciate someone may well be offended, whilst still politely inferring that they may well need to deal with their offence taking without always calling on the police and the state to handle it for them.
Theocracies are good examples in the world for watching how it is when the state and police handle "offence taking" to the extreme. Theocracies do not "grow" overnight, they require legal code written and enforced, which Governments over time, especially Conservative/right-wing Governments, begin to use and abuse more frequently. The UK is having some cases here and there now where the Government is undoubtedly in my opinion, overstepping the mark and criminalizing shit that should simply be handled in a free and enlightened society with social consequences. Not legal. Save legal consequences for situations that actually merit it.
Dumb ass youtube videos and rap lyrics on instagram do not merit court cases and potentially state incarceration.
Excessive. Have any of you ever in you entire life never made a mock Nazi salute?
Last edited: