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Deleted member 5334

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Note: Just so this is clear, what this topic is NOT about social norms and what is acceptable for one target audience over another. This includes depictions of alcohol and smoking, as well as violence (and to a degree, sexual content) which is acceptable to depict in children's media in Japan, but not in a number of other countries. What this topic IS, is to discuss changing of names of characters, locations of where series takes place, removing Japanese and Eastern elements, etc.

So the topic on the Video Game section got me to thinking how we're generally very accepting of localization and changing of Japanese sounding names to more Western or English sounding names as a whole. However, something that does bother me a bit in this kind of train of thought. Why are we generally accepting of "localization", but when it comes to changing ethnicity of characters and locations in adaptions for Hollywood films, we're more keen to call them out for White Washing. But when it comes to Anime and Video Games, we just call it "Localization" and accept it.

Something that rubs me the wrong way is Pokemon was set in various Japanese-like regions in their world, being Kanto, Johto, etc., based off of real locations of Japan. Characters are all Japanese named, often, if not all, real Japanese names, practicing Japanese traditions, foods, and even money system that reflects Japan. Yet, when it came to localization, we remove a lot of elements that make Pokemon a very Japanese series, renaming many of the characters to English sounding names, and sometimes very, if I can be honest, generic American names sometimes, even cutting elements of money, toning down cultural traditions and holidays, and even localizing foods (going as far as when we get into the Advanced Generation episodes, we outright digitally edit out Japanese foods in the anime). Some of which these are present in the games localizations.

Later handlings of Pokemon don't really have this issue, due to moving away from the Japanese locations, but a lot of the earlier stuff still bothers me a bit here.

Even some of the Ghibli film localizations produced by Disney are guilty of this. Some of the Japanese folklore in Spirited Away is somewhat toned down, as well as the whole meaning to when Chihiro's name is changed and completely makes no sense in the dub. There's also the whole thing where the story of Arriety is kinda a weird reverse-white wash situation, where Ghilbi relocated the story to Japan, featuring the characters of the original story (who do retain their names curiously, despite living in Japan), but the humans have had all their names changed to English sounding names. This is also the absolute opposite of what the UK dub did, keeping a lot of, if not all, names intact and leaving the script alone for the most part.

There's obviously other examples of this happening, but I often wonder why a lot of us tolerate this more with video games and anime, than Hollywood adaptations of material from Eastern stories?

I don't know, what is your thoughts about this?
 

Anustart

9 Million Scovilles
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Nov 12, 2017
9,064
They're changing stuff to be more relatable to a different group of people?

Why change the spoken language from Japanese to English, just keep it Japanese!
 

Dracil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,439
I'd say it's probably all white washing, given that I think the reverse doesn't happen? i.e. Western media into Asian countries don't get names and characters and settings "localized". At most they'll use the local alphabet to approximate the name in the translation, but it's still basically the same Western name.

The closest thing I can actually think of is maybe some of the censorship in games when dealing with China. But that doesn't fundamentally change the culture of the game, just removing things the government deems "offensive"
 
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Oct 27, 2017
773
A lot of westerners aren't gonna know how to say Takahashi or Miyamoto etc. Eventually all these "strange" names just bleed together and you lose track. That was my experience as a child at least. Now I know but that's after a basic Jap. 101 class.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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They're changing stuff to be more relatable to a different group of people?

Why change the spoken language from Japanese to English, just keep it Japanese!

This is absolutely not what I'm talking about. A number of dubs, especially Asia, often chose to leave the names alone with their original names intact. A lot of times for English speaking markets, especially for children's Entertainment, we often over-localize our shows. These almost never happen in a number of regions. Asia tends to leave Western names alone in their dubs of English and European cartoons, with a close approximate to how they would sound in their language. But here? We often just rename everything, even changing cultural themes, locations entirely (4Kids was notorious for this on their dubs), and so on and so forth.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Took me a moment to realize your pokemon bit was about the cartoon.

Interestingly enough, despite localization, the GEN 1 games explicitly didn't take place in America, as Lt. Surge was nicknamed "The lightning American", meaning Kanto still was in the very least "not America".
 

Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,089
I'd say it's probably all white washing, given that I think the reverse doesn't happen? i.e. Western media into Asian countries don't get names and characters and settings "localized". At most they'll use the local alphabet to approximate the name in the translation, but it's still basically the same Western name.
Japanese Spider-man would like to have word with you.
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
A child raised in America can much more easily remember and pronounce the name "Ash" than "Satoshi"
 

Scrooge McDuck

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Oct 25, 2017
3,040
There's obviously other examples of this happening, but I often wonder why a lot of us tolerate this more with video games and anime, than Hollywood adaptations of material from Eastern stories?
Because Hollywood has a long history of whitewashing. In a vacuum, yes, making an adaptation that changes characters, place and situation to make it more palatable to the target audience - or heck, even just to shake things up - is not necessarily a bad thing. But Hollywood likes to do things like casting a white actor in a minority role or rejecting minority actors from the get go because they "don't sell" in favor of an equally unknown white actor.

Thus, "Hollywood localization" can feel like something that adds to that. I can feel like yet another way to deprive minority actors of work, and minority representation on screen.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
34,885
As far as I'm aware this almost never happens anymore.

Yo-kai Watch.
WIth the third game they basically went crazy since they had to make up a nation called BBQ since the localized version takes place in America (the Japanese version, they move to USA from Japan). It's like in Ace Attorney when they tried to pretend it was California and not Japan.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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As far as I'm aware this almost never happens anymore.

Yu-Gi-Oh!'s localization still does this, unfortunately (although they've since stopped heavily re-writing the scripts like they did previous seasons). Though on the flip side, we at least have an English subtitled Simulcast, so there is that. However, there's still series without this, such as Yokai Watch, Pokemon, Beyblade, etc., and while I understand they're toyetic in nature and meant to sell toys, I do still think they shouldn't be discredited just because of that.

Honestly, France recently dubbed Digimon Universe Appmon, and they left all the Japanese names alone (without modifying settings and loczation), and often likely would do the same if given the chance with some of these other dubs. While they did have, in the past, tendencies to do similar things with their dubs like the US would do in the 80s and 90s, they've since long moved past these ways of handling their dubs.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 28, 2017
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They shouldnt change the names but old executives probably think oRiEnTaL names are too much to handle for american kids ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .
 

Deleted member 2761

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I more or less agree, OP. I think the only time it's sort of okay is when the names and original source are part of puns and gags that otherwise don't work at all for an English-reading audience e.g. Phoenix Wright.

We're doing kids of non-European backgrounds a disservice by eternally stigmatizing them as foreigners when we treat their names like something you need to take a high-school class to understand.
 

Chojin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,627
When the first Chronicles of Narnia movie came out my Japanese friend that saw it with me told me in the Japanese translation of the book called Tukish Delight "pudding" I told her it was cultural appropriation and should be ashamed.

She married some guy she met on Eharmony.com 6 months later. I wonder if that was related.
 

Brannon

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
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Eat your hamburgers, OP

ybAaUXm.jpg
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
Yo-kai Watch.
WIth the third game they basically went crazy since they had to make up a nation called BBQ since the localized version takes place in America (the Japanese version, they move to USA from Japan). It's like in Ace Attorney when they tried to pretend it was California and not Japan.
what the fuck lol. I guess my perception is skewed because stuff like Dragon Ball, MHA, JoJo, Mob, all have very faithful and accurate dubs now.
 

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,075
If the rights holders are fine with it or even encourage it because they might make more money, what can you do really?
 

Dracil

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Oct 30, 2017
2,439
Japanese Spider-man would like to have word with you.
Thanks. Are there other examples? I'm not really into comic book stuff so I'm somewhat curious if this is a thing with American comics in Japan.

Edit: Looks like this was a special case with Toei and Marvel in the late 70s for 3 years to use characters however they wished and was used for a tokusatsu show. So definitely curious if this was a one-off or a more common trend.
 
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OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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Cool. The rest of the world gets unchanged material?

Most of the times, yes. Usually the only reason they don't is if a licensor forces them to use the English localization as the basis, and that DOES happen if they have the rights for their territories.

I'll let you know: A lot of companies WANT to switch to the Japanese version for Pokemon, but the rights holder (TPCi) won't allow them to do so, from what I understand. Something similar happened with Digimon Xros Wars, where Portugal and Germany tried to get the Japanese version, and the rights holder (Marvista I think in this case for Europe?) refused to give it out. It happens and it more common than you think.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
They just change the language, some names, and material so people in other countries can relate. You mentioned Spirited Away - that is already a fantastic film that flexes the mind with its fantasy, but some of the lore is uniquely Japanese and people in the UK or USA or wherever just wouldn't get it. I mean, it's not like it's hispanic-washing when they localize media for Mexico, for example. It's just localization.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,391
From my limited understanding of game localization I think the devs often work pretty closely with the localization teams, so it's not just the localization people doing whatever they want without any input.

I do know we have a few people working in localization here and would be interested to hear their take.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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From my limited understanding of game localization I think the devs often work pretty closely with the localization teams, so it's not just the localization people doing whatever they want without any input.

I do know we have a few people working in localization here and would be interested to hear their take.

I'd definitely like to hear their take on this, because it's always something I like to hear from someone who works behind the scenes on this stuff.
 

MsMuerta

Member
Nov 8, 2017
622
The Yakuza games have some great localization efforts while also being faithful to, you know, Japan.
 

TheBryanJZX90

Member
Nov 29, 2017
3,027
I think there's a difference when a Japanese company is in control and decides they want to alter their own product to make a localized version versus say an American company that just buys the rights to make an adaptation and does whatever they want with it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
The point of localization is to give the audience in another region the same experience as the audience in the media's home region. If the localization does not do enough to make the media seem relatable to a foreign audience, that can be considered a failure of localization. Something like Persona, for example, is uniquely Japanese in it's setting and themes, so the point would to make that setting and themes feel familiar to foreigners. That's a super tough and complicated balancing act in its own right.

But other times, particularly in fantasy or science fiction, you get a different set of challenges. The way westerners relate to Japanese culture and their own culture is not the same as how Japanese people relate to western culture and their own culture. What is considered unique and exotic to a Japanese audience may be mundane or silly to a western one. What's more, sometimes fantasy settings are supposed to feel homey and familiar to the target audience, like Pokemon. If the culture and customs presented in a Pokemon game feel foreign and different to an American child than to a Japanese one, that could be construed as a failure of localisation. Going to far in the other direction, like when Brock calls onigiri "donuts" when it's super obvious they are not donuts, is also a failure of localization. Phoenix Wright would have literally more coherent if they claimed it took place in "San Fransokyo" or something silly like that.

Some things you cannot take out without doing a disservice to the author(s.) Where one draws the line varies from localisation to localisation, even within a single work. There is no single standard that can be applied to everything. Even the Catholic church uses different translations of the bible for different purposes! For sermons, they may choose a translation that prioritizes prose over literal-ness. What we're talking about is mass media, so generally the priority is audience experience (unless your boss is Hideo Kojima.)
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,956
i remember watching anime on tv in the '90 and everyone had italian names, didnd't think any of that at the time, even tho i knew it was from japan

Slayer's Lina was Rina and Gourry was Guido lol
 

Deleted member 2761

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When did I say that? It's just an example of how it's an understood abbreviation.

If you're dying to use an abbreviation, the standard for Japan is JP or JPN. If you're somehow trying to make the argument that the fact that a word or abbreviation has an understood meaning somehow robs it of its status as a slur, you're making a terrible argument. Just walk away.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,173
NYC
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 says hi
Some things like XB2 are (imo) excusable, as the JP names are puns/have meaning in Japanese that wouldn't carry over to English if they were unlocalized. For example, her JP name "Homura" means flame. In English, that doesn't carry over. So they went with "Pyra" because it's reminiscent of "Pyre". I'm not sure precisely what to call it, but there is something to say about maintaining the meaning of a name/sentence/word being far more important than keeping those things the same for the sake of keeping them the same.

Pokemon, however, is dumb. A lot of cases are just silly and dumb, really.
 
Oct 27, 2017
773
If you're dying to use an abbreviation, the standard for Japan is JP or JPN. If you're somehow trying to make the argument that the fact that a word or abbreviation has an understood meaning somehow robs it of its status as a slur, you're making a terrible argument. Just walk away.
I've seen those ones too but that doesn't come to mind first. Idk my teacher said that jap and those other two were all common abbreviations. I'll take her word ,as she was from Japan, over yours. Who cares neither one of us is gonna move an inch so this was pointless.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
It matters cuz spelling it like that is an offensive slur.
That is pretty much exclusively an American thing. It's a product of the guilt over the internment and general racist persecution of the Japanese in America. Nobody blinks at a "Jap Pumpkin" over here. But something like "Abbo" carries a negative implication due to racism against Aborigine peoples.
 

Trojita

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Oct 25, 2017
5,721
  • The Japanese version of The Transformers cartoon:
    • Autobots to Cybertron(s)
    • Decepticons to Destron(s)
    • Cybertron (the planet) was still spelled the same, but its pronunciation was altered to "Seibertron."
    • Rumble to Frenzy, and vice versa. The two names were switched in order to correct an animation error that reversed the characters' colors (the two were identical aside from color schemes).
    • Optimus Prime to Convoy
    • Mirage to Ligier
    • Sideswipe to Lambor
    • Jazz to Meister
    • Brawn to Gong
    • Cosmos to Adams
    • Laserbeak to Condor
    • Ravage to Jaguar
    • Blaster to Broadcast
    • Trypticon to Dinosaurer
    • Scorponok to MegaZarak
  • Transformers Animated
    • Bulkhead to Ironhide (because they wanted the connection to the Live Action movies to be stronger; this necessitated changing...)
    • Ironhide to Armorhide
  • Transformers: Robots in Disguise is named Transformers Adventure in Japan.
  • SpongeBob SquarePants
    • Squidward Tentacles to Ikarudo Tentacles (a portmanteau of the Japanese word ika (squid) and the Spanish name Ricardo)
    • Bikini Bottom to Bikini Town
    • Squilliam to Ikarimu (Again, a pun on "Ika" and "William").
  • Yogi Bear
    • Yogi Bear to Kuma Goro (literally, Goro the Bear). Later TV series and movies revert to Yogi Bear, though.
    • Ranger Smith to Mr. Smith (Smith-san)
  • How to Train Your Dragon is named Hic to Dragon (Hic and the Dragon) there and all the names were changed possibly due to spelling issues. Only Stoick keeps his original name here.
    • Hiccup to Hic
    • Astrid to Asty
    • Gobber to Gebb
    • Snotlout to Snot
    • Fishlegs to Fish
    • Tuffnut to Tuf
    • Ruffnut to Ruf
  • The Herculoids to "Kaiju o Targan" "(Monster King Targan)"
    • Zandor to Targan
    • Tara to Marmi
    • Dormo to Kane
    • Zok to Maryu
    • Igoo to Rikira
    • Tundro to Tanguro
    • Gloop to Hyuhyu
    • Gleep to Bobo
  • G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero to Chijō Saikyō no Expert Team G.I. Joe ("G.I. Joe: The World's Greatest Expert Team")
    • Duke to Grunt and back to Duke in The Movie.note
    • Rock'n Roll to Mick
    • Mutt to Hound
    • Spirit to Gray
    • Snake Eyes to Snake Eye
    • Lady Jaye to Lady J
    • Lifeline to Lifeliner (movie dub)
    • Some of the vehicles that were released in Japan also had different names.
      • Sky Hawk VTOL to Little Harry
      • Cobra Fang to Cobra Gyro
      • Cobra Stinger to Cobra Night Attacker
    • A lot of the Joes also had their nationalities changed in order to make them an international force rather than having them be U.S. centric.
  • Ronald McDonald to Donald McDonald, due to the lack of the clear "r" sound in the Japanese language.
  • Captain Underpants to Pantsman
  • Wacky Races to Chiki Chiki Machine Mō Race
    • The Mean Machine to the Zero Zero Machine
      • Dick Dastardly to Black Maōnote
      • Muttley to Kenken
    • The Bouldermobile to the Ganseki Opennote
      • Gravel to Tamegorō
      • Rock to Donchiki
    • The Creepy Coupe to the Hyūdoro Coupe
      • Big Gruesome to Monster
      • Little Gruesome to Dorachibinote
    • The Convert-A-Car to the Magic Three
      • Professor Pat Pending to Doctor H
    • The Crimson Haybailer to the Kreutzer Sports
      • Red Max to Kōmori Bossnote
    • The Compact Pussycat to The Pussycat
      • Penelope Pitstop to Milk-chan
    • The Army Surplus Special to the Tank GT
      • Sarge to Kakka Gunsōnote
      • Private to Shinpei-kunnote
    • The Bulletproof Bomb to the Gang Seven
      • The Anthill Mob to Torahige Ichizokunote . As for the individual members, Clyde became "Oyabun"note , while the rest were referred by the generic moniker of "Kobun"note .
    • The Arkansas Chuggabug to the Poppo SL
      • Lazy Luke to Yotarō
      • Blubber Bear to Kumappachi
    • The Turbo Terrific to the Handsome V9
      • Peter Perfect to Kizatoto-kun
    • The Buzz Wagon to The Torokko Special
      • Rufus Ruffcut to Don Kappenote
      • Sawtooth to Jinbei
  • Wacky Races (2017)'s Japanese dub keeps the tradition and many names are also changed:
    • I.Q. Ickly to I.Q. Takasugi-kun
    • Pandora Pitstop to Cocoa-chan
    • P.T. Barnstorm to just Barnstorm
  • Star Trek
    • Lieutenant Sulu to Lieutenant Kato due to the fact that "Sulu" is not a name in Japanese.
    • Numerous episode titles were altered in localization.
  • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 version)
    • Hamato Yoshi to Yoshihama Takeshi
    • Oroku Saki to Sawaki Oroku
  • Donkey Kong Country to Super Donkey Kong (Donkey Kong Returns for Donkey Kong Country Returns)
    • Click-Clack to Beetle
    • Krow to Zocky
    • King Zing to King B
    • Kiddy Kong to Dinky Kong
    • Sheepy (from Land III) to Kuma-san
  • Wreck-It Ralph to Sugar Rush:
    • Minty Zaki to Minty Sakura
  • Scooby-Doo, Where Are You! to Yowamushi Kuruppa ("Cowardly Crooper")note :
    • Scooby-Doo to Crooper
    • Shaggy to Boropin
    • Freddy to Handsome
    • Daphne to Jenny
    • Velma to Megako
  • My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic
    • The Everfree Forest to the Forest of No Return
    • The Grand Galloping Gala to the Canterlot Dance Party
    • Parasprites to Pakupaku ("Chomp-Chomp") Bugs
    • Mr. Turnip, Rocky, Sir Lintsalot, and Madame LeFlour to Kabu-san, Ishi-san, Itokuzu-san, and Komugiko-san
    • Smarty Pants to Pants-kun
    • The Mysterious Mare-Do-Well to Dark Mare
    • Gabby Gums to Gabby Chat
  • Fast & Furious to Wild Speed
    • Japanese dub had a different sequel naming system. Basically, 2 Fast 2 Furious and Tokyo Drift had a "X number" system. Later series and Tokyo Drift had a subtitle.
  • Sofia the First to "Little Princess Sofia".The Incredibles to "Mr. Incredible".Aladdin: The Series changes Queen Thundra to Queen Sandra (because of the pronunciation, Sadora).The Fantastic Four (1967) to Uchū Ninja Golmes ("Space Ninja Golmes")
    • Mr. Fantastic to Golmesnote
    • The Human Torch to Fire Boy
    • The Thing to Ganrocknote
    • The Invisible Girl is simply called by her nickname Suzie
    • Dr. Doom to Akuma-hakasenote
      • His full name was also changed from "Victor Von Doom" to "Akuma Yumenoaru"note
  • Batman:
    • Clayface became ドロ人間 ("Mud Human") in the manga, and Weather Wizard was renamed "Go-Go the Magician" (魔人ゴーゴー) even in the English translation.
  • Space Ghost to Uchū Kaijin Gōsuto (literally "Space Phantom Ghost")
    • Jace as Alan
    • Jan as Kate
    • Blip as Picky
  • BoJack Horseman
    • Not the show itself ,but rather the Show Within The Show Horsin' Around where BoJack's character, The Horse, is made into The Danza. However this is mostly from the Christmas Special onwards, since episodes from Season 1 use the more literal translation of "Uma-san".
  • Sherlock Holmes:
    • When the original novels were translated into Japanese during the Meiji era, the cast was given Japanese names: i.e., Holmes was named "Tairoku Komuro", while Watson became "Shinichi Wada". This is lampshaded in the meitantei series Detective Conan, when a suspect uses "Shinichi Wada" as a fake name.
  • Sing!
    • Becky to Betty
  • Undertale
    • Alphys to Alphi
    • Snowdin to Snowful
  • The Angry Video Game Nerd
    • Turdy Nerd to Otakuso (Portamanteau of Otaku and "kuso", the Japanese for "shit")
  • Adventure Time
    • Lumpy Space to Kobu Kobu Sei (Planet Lumpy Lumpy)
    • Land of OOO to OOO no Taikai (Continent of OOO)
    • Grass Fields to Green Field(s)
  • The Japanese version of Spyro the Dragon changed a lot of the world and level names. Curiously, many of them were still left in English.
    • Dragon Realms to Dragon Resort
    • Artisans to Green Garden Home
      • Stone Hill to Speed Chase
      • Dark Hollow to Night Square
      • Town Square to Glide Town
      • Toasty to Wonder Pumpkin
      • Sunny Flight to Sunny Sky
    • Peace Keepers to Combat Garden Home
      • Ice Cavern to Slip Cave
      • Doctor Shemp to Doctor Cool
      • Night Flight to Night Sky
    • Magic Crafters to Magic Garden Home
      • Alpine Ridge to Glide Mountain
      • High Caves to Fairy Kiss
      • Blowhard to Hurricane Hat
      • Crystal Flight to Crystal Sky
    • Beast Makers to Beautiful Garden Home
      • Terrace Village to Mechanical Village
      • Misty Bog to Broken Palace
      • Tree Tops to Speed Tree
      • Metalhead to Iron Head
      • Wild Flight to Wild Sky
    • Dream Weavers to Dream Garden Home
      • Dark Passage to Nightmare Road
      • Lofty Castle to Fairy Trap
      • Haunted Towers to Ghost Armor
      • Jacques to Amazing Box
      • Icy Flight to Ice Sky
    • Gnorc Gnexus to Heart of Gnasty
      • Gnorc Cove to Gnasty Harbor
      • Twilight Harbor to Gnasty Bridge
      • Gnasty's Loot to Treasure Room
  • Spyro 2: Ripto's Rage! to Spyro & Sparx: Tondemo Tours
    • Summer Forest to Summer Castle
      • Glimmer to Glimland
      • Idol Springs to Mokkou Lake
      • Colossus to Zen Temple
      • Hurricos to Eletlevin
      • Sunny Beach to Kame Kame Beach
      • Aquaria Towers to Aqua Tower
 

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
From your examples it seems that it's made for kids to understand it better. You don't have to explain whatever the fuck sushi is to a 5 year old.