Linkin Park announces return with Emily Armstrong as new co-vocalist; single The Emptiness Machine released, album From Zero releasing November 15

CandySTX · Sep 7, 2024

The video that was posted earlier in the thread where an ex-Scientologist discussed the situation made one point clear: The official church line is that Danny isn't in the wrong.
The guy talked about how he was unable to get any current members to utter a word against Masterson.

So, if Emily is saying this, unless we want to go in to conspiracy theories about the church allowing her to break rank to further their profile and not hinder what should be a very successful relaunch of the band, I think it's enough for me to show growth and a desire to change.

I'll look like a right tit if it turns out she's Xenu's best pal or whatever, but I'm a little more relaxed.

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

CandySTX said:
The video that was posted earlier in the thread where an ex-Scientologist discussed the situation made one point clear: The official church line is that Danny isn't in the wrong.
The guy talked about how he was unable to get any current members to utter a word against Masterson.

So, if Emily is saying this, unless we want to go in to conspiracy theories about the church allowing her to break rank to further their profile and not hinder what should be a very successful relaunch of the band, I think it's enough for me to show growth and a desire to change.

I'll look like a right tit if it turns out she's Xenu's best pal or whatever, but I'm a little more relaxed.

This is a good point indeed. Scientology is still adamant about Masterson, and theoretically this is still enough to be considered 'out-ethics' of some sort - 50/50 on whether or not they're smart enough to not pursue it and cause more bad press though.

I will say as someone who's spent a lot of time researching Scientology, my personal assessment is she's not likely from what we know right now to be an active/ardent Scientologist beyond just being born-in. Not only is she not OT3 (Xenu revelation) and not even at Clear, her only confirmed course is something so basic that you or I or anyone could theoretically join Scientology (don't do it though, obviously!!!) and start on it within a month - and her other rumoured course isn't far behind. The associated books behind the Problems of Work course and the Purification Rundown that she took are both designated as 'beginning books' (Said books being titled 'Problems of Work' and 'Clear Body, Clear Mind' respectively.)

So yeah, highly unlikely she's a big Xenu-head and active Scientologist beyond the obligations she was born into - but there's always room to be wrong if further evidence comes out, mind you. I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong on this one.

Night · Sep 7, 2024

I'm sitting out the LP comeback and they're my favorite band of all time. It ain't LP without Chester. The latest just makes me feel better about it. Good luck to them.

Axe · Sep 7, 2024

Personally, I can take her statement at face value as there's yet to be evidence of her maintaining support for Masterson beyond attending the initial arraignment. In fact it's looking like she pays lip service to the org, at best. I'm surprised she's even said this much, given the very real risk she's exposing herself to for retaliation from the church.

I also think Cedric needs to clearly clarify whether Emily was actually involved in the intimidation incident or not. To me, his post didn't actually say that, but was written in a way that some people have interpreted it as such.

Alavard said:
That's... it? No mention from her of who he is or what he did?

Emily's playing a dangerous game as it is. She can't denounce Masterson by name or Scientology, or she will be deemed a suppressed person and never see her family again. The org will retaliate viciously against her and possibly the band too.

I read that apparently she was part of their cadet group as a kid, which is known for committing some absolutely heinous shit. There's a pretty high likelihood that she was a victim of or witness to child abuse herself. As a second gen, I imagine that in many ways she's also effectively been held hostage by the church throughout her life. They will know every deep secret, insecurity, trauma, and fear she has. Makes it very difficult for a member to go against them, and that's by design.

Hercule · Sep 7, 2024

If she can't publicly denounce the Scientology church they shouldn't have picked her.

If things continue like this the Scientology stuff wil always be linked to Linkin park

beelulzebub · Sep 7, 2024

Axe said:
Personally, I can take her statement at face value as there's yet to be evidence of her maintaining support for Masterson beyond attending the initial arraignment. In fact it's looking like she pays lip service to the org, at best. I'm surprised she's even said this much, given the very real risk she's exposing herself to for retaliation from the church.

I also think Cedric needs to clearly clarify whether Emily was actually involved in the intimidation incident or not. To me, his post didn't actually say that, but was written in a way that some people have interpreted it as such.

Emily's playing a dangerous game as it is. She can't denounce Masterson by name or Scientology, or she will be deemed a suppressed person and never see her family again. The org will retaliate viciously against her and possibly the band too.

I read that apparently she was part of their cadet group as a kid, which is known for committing some absolutely heinous shit. There's a pretty high likelihood that she was a victim of or witness to child abuse herself. As a second gen, I imagine that in many ways she's also effectively been held hostage by the church throughout her life. They will know every deep secret, insecurity, trauma, and fear she has. Makes it very difficult for a member to go against them, and that's by design.

All absolutely valid points.

Fuck the church of Scientology.

Phendrana · Sep 7, 2024

Not satisfied with that apology at all tbh.

It's FAR too vague. "Unimaginable details emerged and he was later found guilty." That sounds good on first glance but it's basically just what happened, doesn't mean she believes it. She doesn't condemn him specifically at all. The whole thing could easily be some cleverly worded language that gives the impression of a stance without ever actually making one.

She should never have been picked if this is the kind of statement they thought would fly. I have no idea how it's possible given how quickly the internet found all of this, but it really feels like this caught the band off-guard.

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
Not satisfied with that apology at all tbh.

It's FAR too vague. "Unimaginable details emerged and he was later found guilty." That sounds good on first glance but it's basically just what happened, doesn't mean she believes it. She doesn't condemn him specifically at all. The whole thing could easily be some cleverly worded language that gives the impression of a stance without ever actually making one.

She should never have been picked if this is the kind of statement they thought would fly. I have no idea how it's possible given how quickly the internet found all of this, but it really feels like this caught the band off-guard.

It's worth noting that Scientology's systems of punishment and disconnection/shunning make specific damning statements VERY difficult without facing consequences. Esp. as a 2nd-gen born-scientologist, all her family and many friends would likely be shunning her for life if she crossed the wrong line. It's a factor worth considering at the least.

Scientology's official party line as of right now is still 'Masterson is innocent and the target of false allegations by anti-Scientologists/SPs', and support / non-condemnation of the guy is expected. Not saying it's for sure the case, but not wanting to fall afoul and be declared an SP or face some other kind of punishment is a plausible/possible reasoning for it being a somewhat indirect condemnation.

chocolate · Sep 7, 2024

Hercule said:
If she can't publicly denounce the Scientology church they shouldn't have picked her.

If things continue like this the Scientology stuff wil always be linked to Linkin park

I love Linkin Park but they willingly chose this problem.

I will not believe that they had no idea the shitstorm having her would lead to. Against better judgement, and better alternatives (I've heard covers that had stronger voices than hers), they decided on a PR nightmare.

I think it's kinda sad that, after all this time waiting for them to come back and make amazing music, the past of the new lead singer will always be at the forefront of conversation for a long time to come. Those guys deserve better.

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

Hercule said:
If she can't publicly denounce the Scientology church they shouldn't have picked her.

If things continue like this the Scientology stuff wil always be linked to Linkin park

This is the correct take. Lots of people are acting like the band were somehow obliged to hire her and that she must now be accepted despite all the baggage and murkiness around her beliefs and history.

No, this is a mess entirely of their own making. I personally find it unforgivable and will not be supporting them in any way going forward. They totally fucked this up.

Phendrana · Sep 7, 2024

MyDudeMango said:
It's worth noting that Scientology's systems of punishment and disconnection/shunning make specific damning statements VERY difficult without facing consequences. Esp. as a 2nd-gen born-scientologist, all her family and many friends would likely be shunning her for life if she crossed the wrong line. It's a factor worth considering at the least.

It's worth acknowledging, but it doesn't make me any more willing to support the band in this form. Given what Scientology stands for, Armstrong being chosen as Chester's replacement would only ever be acceptable if LP knew she would be publicly denouncing the organization afterwards. That's it, frankly. And it hasn't happened.

If she's practically out of Scientology but won't denounce them to avoid the harassment and loss of contact with family -- I empathise with her. But she shouldn't have been selected. Even if she's half out, her involvement with Linkin Park will benefit Scientology. Fuck that.

Idde · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
Not satisfied with that apology at all tbh.

It's FAR too vague. "Unimaginable details emerged and he was later found guilty." That sounds good on first glance but it's basically just what happened, doesn't mean she believes it. She doesn't condemn him specifically at all. The whole thing could easily be some cleverly worded language that gives the impression of a stance without ever actually making one.

She should never have been picked if this is the kind of statement they thought would fly. I have no idea how it's possible given how quickly the internet found all of this, but it really feels like this caught the band off-guard.

That's your interpretation of it. If she's not willing to risk Scientology burying her in all kinds of shit, this could be her just being careful.

If you state someone is found guilty, and you come out against sexual assault: that becomes your official, public stance. When you reiterate the verdict, you back it up.

That's how it reads to me.

And there really isn't any indication otherwise anywhere that this is not actually what she beliefs.

Tomasoares · Sep 7, 2024

Axe said:
Personally, I can take her statement at face value as there's yet to be evidence of her maintaining support for Masterson beyond attending the initial arraignment. In fact it's looking like she pays lip service to the org, at best. I'm surprised she's even said this much, given the very real risk she's exposing herself to for retaliation from the church.

I also think Cedric needs to clearly clarify whether Emily was actually involved in the intimidation incident or not. To me, his post didn't actually say that, but was written in a way that some people have interpreted it as such.

Emily's playing a dangerous game as it is. She can't denounce Masterson by name or Scientology, or she will be deemed a suppressed person and never see her family again. The org will retaliate viciously against her and possibly the band too.

I read that apparently she was part of their cadet group as a kid, which is known for committing some absolutely heinous shit. There's a pretty high likelihood that she was a victim of or witness to child abuse herself. As a second gen, I imagine that in many ways she's also effectively been held hostage by the church throughout her life. They will know every deep secret, insecurity, trauma, and fear she has. Makes it very difficult for a member to go against them, and that's by design.

That's what I think too.
I think that statement was already more brave than I was expecting, given how much the cult can retaliate

Phendrana · Sep 7, 2024

Idde said:
That's your interpretation of it. If she's not willing to risk Scientology burying her in all kinds of shit, this could be her just being careful.

An apology like this shouldn't be open to interpretation imo. It should be clear. And if she isn't willing to be explicit due to fears of retaliation from the cult, she shouldn't have been selected.

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
It's worth acknowledging, but it doesn't make me any more willing to support the band in this form. Given what Scientology stands for, Armstrong being chosen as Chester's replacement would only ever be acceptable if LP knew she would be publicly denouncing the organization afterwards. That's it, frankly. And it hasn't happened.

If she's practically out of Scientology but won't denounce them to avoid the harassment and loss of contact with family -- I empathise with her. But she shouldn't have been selected. Even if she's half out, her involvement with Linkin Park will benefit Scientology. Fuck that.

Of course, not saying it demands support of the band etc. etc. just an interesting wrinkle worth considering in the discussion.

One way or the other though, it's a pick for the band that seems baffling in hindsight as it's generated a lot of controversy and is quickly becoming difficult to unpry from Scientology's many controversies.

Walpurgisnacht · Sep 7, 2024

I have no horse in this race not being a fan of the band, but I want to say it's kind of crazy that members of a forum who should have a base understanding that sexual assault victims often don't come forward due to a vastly outsized power imbalance and fear of retaliation - want this woman to basically go scorched eath on an organization known to be (at best) highly litigious and volitile. Just so they can feel safe listening to their music again.

While 24 hours ago, none of this was a great look for Emily, I'm wondering why it's lost on some people that yeah... cults make themselves really fucking hard to leave for a reason because they're effectively an abusive relationship on a mass scale.

If the band starts touring and she's found to be using their platform to distribute Scientology literature and as a means of recruitment, sure, that's a different story. But some of you need to take a breath and maybe evaluate whether you'd have the balls to go aganst an organization like that in her positon.

Her statement on Danny Masterson was vague, but mostly satisfactory and to the point enough that it's safe to take her at her word for now. The Scientology stuff is a lose-lose position though.

ZeoVGM · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
An apology like this shouldn't be open to interpretation imo. It should be clear. And if she isn't willing to be explicit due to fears of retaliation from the cult, she shouldn't have been selected.

Well, sucks to be born and raised into a cult then, I guess?

Lukar · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
And if she isn't willing to be explicit due to fears of retaliation from the cult, she shouldn't have been selected.

Should people born into situations they didn't get to choose to be in be disallowed from being in creative spaces with people who seemingly relate to her and like her as a person?

horkrux · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
It's worth acknowledging, but it doesn't make me any more willing to support the band in this form. Given what Scientology stands for, Armstrong being chosen as Chester's replacement would only ever be acceptable if LP knew she would be publicly denouncing the organization afterwards. That's it, frankly. And it hasn't happened.

If she's practically out of Scientology but won't denounce them to avoid the harassment and loss of contact with family -- I empathise with her. But she shouldn't have been selected. Even if she's half out, her involvement with Linkin Park will benefit Scientology. Fuck that.

It benefits Scientology when someone who is "practically out" (and allegedly never delved too far into it to begin with) is involved with the band? That doesn't make sense.

EloKa · Sep 7, 2024

Saw Emily with her band 10 years ago at a concert and legit thought that she had one of the best voices sinces Janis Joplin.

Hope she got rid of the cult and can clear things up so people can focus on her talent. Would be a shame if she turned out to be a burden for Linkin Park.

CielYoshi · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
An apology like this shouldn't be open to interpretation imo. It should be clear. And if she isn't willing to be explicit due to fears of retaliation from the cult, she shouldn't have been selected.

But that line of thinking just leads to a catch-22 situation for her: she was born into the cult, and supported one of their own until it became clear he was in the wrong. Now she either goes for a full public denouncing of the cult and marks herself (and those she now associates) as a huge target for them, or does what she did now and risk losing her music career because no band would want to associate with her unless they were part of the cult and incited her to rejoin. I understand that her past is sketchy and that not doing a full condemnation looks bad, but if she wants out of the cult then any band she joined would have to bear the brunt of the backlash.

Idde · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
An apology like this shouldn't be open to interpretation imo. It should be clear. And if she isn't willing to be explicit due to fears of retaliation from the cult, she shouldn't have been selected.

I get what you mean. Association with an organization as utterly vile as Scientology should (ideally) be cut as clearly and definitively as possible to take away all doubt.

Already people in this thread saying they're gonna stop listening to the band because of this. That sucks, and by picking someone else that could have been avoided.

However, it's not Armstrongs fault she was born in to Scientology. And if she and the rest of the band work well together, I'll always be of the opinion that things that are not your fault don't get to dictate what you can and cannot do in your life.

Of course theres degrees to things someone born into Scientology can do right or wrong. In acts they perform, or how strongly they denounce it. But I don't think someone has to be a saint who has to sacrifice everything in their life to do the right thing to be granted the leniency of living their life the way they want.

Edit: I saw multiple people responded with similar messages. Really not intending this to turn into a pile-on. That situation is never fun.

Phendrana · Sep 7, 2024

ZeoVGM said:
Well, sucks to be born and raised into a cult then, I guess?

...yeah. It does.

Again, I do empathize with her if she's mostly out (which from what I've been reading actually does not seem to be the case). But the band should not have selected her without that denouncement. Especially given Chester's history. That makes all of this even more twisted.

Scientology is a truly despicable cult. Evil shit. I didn't know the extent of it until yesterday and based on a lot of posts in this thread, most don't.

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

Lukar said:
Should people born into situations they didn't get to choose to be in be disallowed from being in creative spaces with people who seemingly relate to her and like her as a person?

When that person is either unwilling or unable to disavow beliefs that are the total antithesis of what the band they're joining stood for? Abso-fucking-lutely.

Idde · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
When that person is either unwilling or unable to disavow beliefs that are the total antithesis of what the band they're joining stood for? Abso-fucking-lutely.

Or as a fan you realize that life has a way of fucking people over, that things aren't always perfect. Through no fault of your own. Like if you're born into a cult.

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

Idde said:
Or as a fan you realize that life has a way of fucking people over, that things aren't always perfect. Through no fault of your own. Like if you're born into a cult.

And again, if she is not in a position to remove herself from that cult, whose beliefs are extremely damaging to vulnerable people, then she is the wrong choice to replace a person who suffered abuse and committed suicide due to mental illness. Yeah it sucks she was born into that situation, but she is not owed a position in one of the world's biggest rock bands because of it.

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

horkrux said:
It benefits Scientology when someone who is "practically out" (and allegedly never delved too far into it to begin with) is involved with the band? That doesn't make sense.

Never delved too far is underselling it if anything - all public info we have on her points to Problems of Work being her only major course completion, and that's a course so public that you can take it online for free from Scientology's websites.

If more info comes out to the contrary, I'll very gladly be proven wrong, but the publicly available sources paint a picture that she's done exponentially less in Scientology compared even to her fellow born-in peers and the one and only course she's provably done is so entry-level any member of the public could start doing it right now this very instant for free on Scientology's website. (Or, if it actually refers to the extension course rather than the regular Problems of Work course, a fee of no more than about ~30 USD)

Idde · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
And again, if she is not in a position to remove herself from that cult, whose beliefs are extremely damaging to vulnerable people, then she is the wrong choice to replace a person who suffered abuse and committed suicide due to mental illness. Yeah it sucks she was born into that situation, but she is not owed a position in one of the world's biggest rock bands because of it.

No, she isn't owed, but neither should that completely involuntary affiliation exclude her from it.

If she's not propagating Scientology's shitty 'beliefs', she's not making life more difficult for vulnerable people. I don't believe in all that 'sins of the father' crap (not saying that's what you're saying here)

The only people who get to decide whether Armstrong should take the spot of Chester are the people who knew Chester as the Linkin Park singer, and who know Armstrong well enough to know if she should take that spot or not. And that would be the members of Linkin Park themselves.

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

Also for people maintaining it's basically impossible for celebrities to announce they've left the cult because of Repercussions...no:

https://www.etonline.com/news/198500_jason_lee_reveals_he_left_the_church_of_scientology
https://people.com/tv/laura-prepon-on-motherhood-and-leaving-scientology/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beck-no-scientologist-917058/

(thanks to the reddit commenter for the links)

ZeoVGM · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
Also for people maintaining it's basically impossible for celebrities to announce they've left the cult because of Repercussions...no:

https://www.etonline.com/news/198500_jason_lee_reveals_he_left_the_church_of_scientology
https://people.com/tv/laura-prepon-on-motherhood-and-leaving-scientology/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beck-no-scientologist-917058/

(thanks to the reddit commenter for the links)

And we could also give you multiple examples of the exact opposite scenario, such as Cedric Bixler-Zavala claiming that the church murdered his fucking dogs in retaliation.

The point is that we know for an absolute fact they do retaliate. And they do it often. Pointing out that there are examples where they haven't (that we know of) isn't relevant. The threat is real and factual.

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
Also for people maintaining it's basically impossible for celebrities to announce they've left the cult because of Repercussions...no:

https://www.etonline.com/news/198500_jason_lee_reveals_he_left_the_church_of_scientology
https://people.com/tv/laura-prepon-on-motherhood-and-leaving-scientology/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beck-no-scientologist-917058/

(thanks to the reddit commenter for the links)

It's worth noting two out of the three joined as adults, and were not born into it.

Additionally, they generally announced with no accompanying controversy/backlash prompting it and without using harshly condemning language that they had become distant from Scientology and simply no longer really practiced.

Someone being born-in, having so much to lose, and denouncing it not as part of a slow fade but rather in response to a controversy that (rightly) is positioning association with Scientology as a bad thing - that is a different set of circumstances worth taking into consideration.

Ideally a statement could still be made, and I'd love to see one be made, but this is also a tricky set of circumstances where it would be easy to fear especial backlash + even greater consequences than a first-gen/joiner would face. I've also heard her parents allegedly worked in OSA (OSA being Scientology's spying, blackmailing, PR-smearing agency) so theoretically if true and if she's familiar with their tactics more closely through family she may fear more than a Scientologist with less knowledge of OSA's awfulness might.

MazeHaze · Sep 7, 2024

The church of Scientology is truly next level evil shit.

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

Idde said:
No, she isn't owed, but neither should that completely involuntary affiliation exclude her from it.

If she's not propagating Scientology's shitty 'beliefs', she's not making life more difficult for vulnerable people. I don't believe in all that 'sins of the father' crap (not saying that's what you're saying here)

The only people who get to decide whether Armstrong should take the spot of Chester are the people who knew Chester as the Linkin Park singer, and who know Armstrong well enough to know if she should take that spot or not.

Scientology doesn't thrive and spread because of its celebrity figures actively and publicly propagating its beliefs...quite the opposite. Their beliefs are meant to be secret. Its leaders just want its members in positions of power. That's it. And high profile entertainment roles are one of their favourites to infiltrate.

Should her past exclude her from creative endeavours? No. What should exclude her from this particular endeavour is the fact she is evidently not able to disavow the cult's stances on mental illness and abuse. Based on the evidence we have, she is still a part of that cult, and she's gonna be up on stage singing lines about mental health, previously sung by a person who committed suicide. It's reprehensible.

edited for clarity

ZeoVGM · Sep 7, 2024

The example of Beck leaving Scientology is funny because he didn't actually didn't announce that he left. His strategy was to lie about ever being in it.

Further confirmation came in an interview with the Sunday Tribune in June 2005, where he stated, "Yeah, I'm a Scientologist. My father has been a Scientologist for about 35 years, so I grew up in and around it." Despite this, Beck disavowed previous reports of his being a Scientologist in a November 2019 interview with the Sydney Morning Herald and said, "I think there's a misconception that I'm a Scientologist. I'm not a Scientologist. I don't have any connection or affiliation with it."[148] He added that "I was raised celebrating Jewish holidays, and I consider myself Jewish."[150]

DanceToTheRadio · Sep 7, 2024

I'm still conflicted. It's good that she addressed and disassociated herself from Masterson, that was most important. If she was born into Scientology, then I can understand and sympathize her apprehension or inability to speak openly about it let alone against it. My issue now is that even if she's no longer an active member or adheres to their beliefs, without the ability to fully denounce it, Scientology now being tied to Linkin Park is a stain to the band's legacy.

Scientology's anti-psychiatry views are the antithesis of the band's themes and what made countless people resonate with Linkin Park and especially, Chester Bennington. For all I know Emily doesn't hold those views herself and, in all honesty, it doesn't seem like she does? Otherwise, I have to believe the band wouldn't have accepted her. I really don't know how to feel about this, Linkin Park has been the single most important artist/band in my life and to cut them off during a time of what should've been nothing but celebration for fans really hurts me.

Axe · Sep 7, 2024

ZeoVGM said:
The example of Beck leaving Scientology is funny because he didn't actually didn't announce that he left. His strategy was to lie about ever being in it.

Interestingly, I saw that Emily once performed with Beck. I wonder if the topic ever came up between them?

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

ZeoVGM said:
The example of Beck leaving Scientology is funny because he didn't actually didn't announce that he left. His strategy was to lie about ever being in it.

That's actually quite interesting. Enough to get me wondering how far he did or didn't go in it.

I can't find much about Beck's course completions, frustratingly - however his ex-wife Marissa Ribisi completed up to OT5 out of OT8 and if I'm getting the right David Campbell his dad went all the way to OT8. (And again, given OT3 is where you learn about Xenu and his volcanic space-genocide, that would make them both legit actual believers in the Xenu story!)

He was DEFINITELY surrounded by hardcore Scientologists one way or the other lol. It would be exceptionally weird, though technically possible, for him to have NEVER been engaged in it - and he sure as hell had more connections than he let on imo.

Corum Jhaelen Irsei · Sep 7, 2024

I've read that Scientologist can lie if it benefits their cult, so I don't know if I can believe in some of those celebrity statements.

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

ZeoVGM said:
And we could also give you multiple examples of the exact opposite scenario, such as Cedric Bixler-Zavala claiming that the church murdered his fucking dogs in retaliation.

The point is that we know for an absolute fact they do retaliate. And they do it often. Pointing out that there are examples where they haven't (that we know of) isn't relevant. The threat is real and factual.

Obviously, especially when those ex-members very publicly criticise them afterwards. Point is some people clearly believe that it's impossible to leave without reprisals and it's not true.

Idde · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
Scientology doesn't thrive and spread because of its celebrity figures actively and publicly propagating its beliefs...quite the opposite. Their beliefs are meant to be secret. Its leaders just want its members in positions of power. That's it. And high profile entertainment roles are one of their favourites to infiltrate.

Should her past exclude her from creative endeavours? No. What should exclude her from this particular endeavour is the fact she is evidently not able to disavow the cult's stances on mental illness and abuse. Based on the evidence we have, she is still a part of that cult, and she's gonna be up on stage singing lines about mental health, previously sung by a person who committed suicide. It's reprehensible.

edited for clarity

Has it ever occurred to you she gets to sing those lines about mental health because everybody in the band (or at least the people who get to decide) thought she had a right to sing those lines? You're saying she's disqualified to do so because of matters outside of her control, when the people who decided she's qualified to do so, decided that way because they know her as a person. Who she is. And I'm gonna trust the judgment of the band here: what should be more important; her as a person (which would make her fit, not just be okay for it, but fit) or matters outside her control?

And I don't agree with what you're saying fully, and insinuating partly, that Anderson is a Scientologist looking to infiltrate a high profile entertainment role. MyDudeMango has posted plenty of proof that Anderson is waaaaaaay less involved with Scientology than someone born into it, actively engaged with it, would have been. And she's actively stated the opposite of what Scientology official stance is regarding Masterson. Which is not insignificant.

You posted links to people saying they left Scientology, claiming it isn't impossible to do so. But there are waaaaay too many horror stories about how petty, litigious, vindictive and straight up dangerous the cult is to make someone think twice about vocally declaring they've left it.

So nah, I don't think the evidence paints her as still being part of Scientology. It doesn't without a doubt say she's not, but it sure makes it seem that way.

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

Corum Jhaelen Irsei said:
I've read that Scientologist can lie if it benefits their cult, so I don't know if I can believe in some of those celebrity statements.

Kinda, but not generally in this context. Jehovahs Witnesses are a cult with that exact policy though, of lying no matter what to evade persecution/prosecution, though it was inconsistently applied by the organization (Which infamously caused the deaths of many JWs in Malawi who were not permitted to engage in such deception when their lives were at stake).

Scientology tends to be a religion very concerned with public PR and you're expected to generally rep them positively. It's why they have a celebrity centre / actively recruit celebrities or possible future celebrities. Generally they want people to be open about being a Scientologist and to boast of its popularity. Their continued association with Danny Masterson shows also they'll defend their own no matter what.

You may, however, be thinking of the Fair Game policy, which endorses lying to and about enemies of Scientology amongst many many other harmful/illegal actions. As taken from wikipedia, cited from an official HCOPL (Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter) from Hubbard himself:

In a 1967 policy titled Penalties for Lower Conditions, Hubbard wrote that opponents who are "fair game" may be "deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."

Idde said:
So nah, I don't think the evidence paints her as still being part of Scientology. It doesn't without a doubt say she's not, but it sure makes it seem that way.

I would agree on this, and I do say this as someone who's spent an inordinate amount of time studying this shitty fascinating cult - I just can't say that completing a baby's first Scientology course (that can be taken online for free by any random schmuck) whilst being born into the cult without a choice is enough info at this time to condemn her.

Especially with her being a lesbian, there's good reason to believe she'd probably not get on well with delving deeper into Scientology as Hubbard's writings could be quite homophobic (Especially anything pre-2007, which is when the book Science of Survival was amended as part of the 'Golden Age of Knowledge' program to remove homosexuals from the lower rungs of the 'tone scale' - which when combined with Hubbard's statements that the world would be better off if individuals low on the tone scale were 'deleted', essentially advocated for genocide of homosexuals! Or at the very least theorized such a genocide could be possibly beneficial to mankind.)

Vaenyr · Sep 7, 2024

Phendrana said:
Not satisfied with that apology at all tbh.

It's FAR too vague. "Unimaginable details emerged and he was later found guilty." That sounds good on first glance but it's basically just what happened, doesn't mean she believes it. She doesn't condemn him specifically at all. The whole thing could easily be some cleverly worded language that gives the impression of a stance without ever actually making one.

She should never have been picked if this is the kind of statement they thought would fly. I have no idea how it's possible given how quickly the internet found all of this, but it really feels like this caught the band off-guard.

To add to your point, allegation were made half a decade before the preliminary hearings where those "unimaginable details emerged". It's not as this information was only released in the courtroom. Sure, the most severe parts of the testimonies were heard only then, but Masterson's victims had publicly talked about and accused him of his crimes long before the preliminary hearings.

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

Idde said:
Has it ever occurred to you she gets to sing those lines about mental health because everybody in the band (or at least the people who get to decide) thought she had a right to sing those lines? You're saying she's disqualified to do so because of matters outside of her control, when the people who decided she's qualified to do so, decided that way because they know her as a person. Who she is. And I'm gonna trust the judgment of the band here: what should be more important; her as a person (which would make her fit, not just be okay for it, but fit) or matters outside her control?

And I don't agree with what you're saying fully, and insinuating partly, that Anderson is a Scientologist looking to infiltrate a high profile entertainment role. MyDudeMango has posted plenty of proof that Anderson is waaaaaaay less involved with Scientology than someone born into it, actively engaged with it, would have been. And she's actively stated the opposite of what Scientology official stance is regarding Masterson. Which is not insignificant.

You posted links to people saying they left Scientology, claiming it isn't impossible to do so. But there are waaaaay too many horror stories about how petty, litigious, vindictive and straight up dangerous the cult is to make someone think twice about vocally declaring they've left it.

So nah, I don't think the evidence paints her as still being part of Scientology. It doesn't without a doubt say she's not, but it sure makes it seem that way.

Well that's where we apparently differ, I do not unquestioningly trust the band or (more precisely) Mike's judgement. I do not know them as people either or what they deem to be acceptable or morally right.

And yes, the evidence we have does suggest she's still a part of the cult. There are accounts from people who know her saying she is a very well known Scientology figure in LA, and until you or someone else can post actual evidence that shows she's no longer involved with the cult then that's all we actually have to go on. Not carefully worded PR statements that avoid the subject altogether. Notice how she doesn't even actually name Masterson.

CandySTX · Sep 7, 2024

Hercule said:
If she can't publicly denounce the Scientology church they shouldn't have picked her.

If things continue like this the Scientology stuff wil always be linked to Linkin park

What I'm left wondering is why.

There had to be a reason why they looked at her and her history and still said "She's the one"

I can make up stories in my head about it. Mike knew her from before, so maybe this is his way of helping her out of the cult?
Or maybe Mike's brain is so cooked by the NFT crypro bro bullshit that he only saw dollar signs?

With how violent scientology can be towards folks who speak against it, I wonder if we'll ever know?

Anyway. I'll proceed with caution, but I totally get that this is a step too far for some folk.

Lynchian Anomaly · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
Should her past exclude her from creative endeavours? No. What should exclude her is the fact she is evidently not able to disavow the cult's stances on mental illness and abuse. Based on the evidence we have, she is still a part of that cult, and she's gonna be up on stage singing lines about mental health, previously sung by a person who committed suicide. It's reprehensible.

This is where I'm at. The fact that for most people here it seems like they want just enough wiggle room to justify listening to Linkin Park's NFT AI generated anti-psych corpse puppeted around then more power to them. They can have it.

obin_gam · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
Notice how she doesn't even actually name Masterson.

Everyone knows who it is about.

Tomasoares · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
Well that's where we apparently differ, I do not unquestioningly trust the band or (more precisely) Mike's judgement. I do not know them as people either or what they deem to be acceptable or morally right.

And yes, the evidence we have does suggest she's still a part of the cult. There are accounts from people who know her saying she is a very well known Scientology figure in LA, and until you or someone else can post actual evidence that shows she's no longer involved with the cult then that's all we actually have to go on. Not carefully worded PR statements that avoid the subject altogether. Notice how she doesn't even actually name Masterson.

Which accounts?

MyDudeMango · Sep 7, 2024

RomToggins said:
Well that's where we apparently differ, I do not unquestioningly trust the band or (more precisely) Mike's judgement. I do not know them as people either or what they deem to be acceptable or morally right.

And yes, the evidence we have does suggest she's still a part of the cult. There are accounts from people who know her saying she is a very well known Scientology figure in LA, and until you or someone else can post actual evidence that shows she's no longer involved with the cult then that's all we actually have to go on. Not carefully worded PR statements that avoid the subject altogether. Notice how she doesn't even actually name Masterson.

I've posted elsewhere in the thread that her Scientology course completions are basically zero. Just one beginner-level course that anyone can take for free, and other born-in Scientologists generally have close to ten or more paid non-public courses to their name. Her attending a Scientology event also isn't that remarkable as she's probably an IAS member through her family, which is what nets you invites to those events.

It would also be unsurprising if she didn't get very far in Scientology as even the basic starter books before you get deep into the coursework have homophobia all throughout them. Probably not going to really entice her, as a Lesbian, to Hubbard's philosophy and religion.

And again, as Scientology's party line is that Masterson is innocent and a victim of anti-Scientology conspiracies, an indirect approach may be her attempting to avoid getting dinged for 'out-ethics' or at worst risk being declared an SP outright.

CandySTX said:
I can make up stories in my head about it. Mike knew her from before, so maybe this is his way of helping her out of the cult?
Or maybe Mike's brain is so cooked by the NFT crypro bro bullshit that he only saw dollar signs?

Lynchian Anomaly said:
This is where I'm at. The fact that for most people here it seems like they want just enough wiggle room to justify listening to Linkin Park's NFT AI generated anti-psych corpse puppeted around then more power to them. They can have it.

Hold on, they did NFT shit? Please tell me they walked it back or something holy shit 😭

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

MyDudeMango said:
Especially with her being a lesbian, there's good reason to believe she'd probably not get on well with delving deeper into Scientology as Hubbard's writings could be quite homophobic (Especially anything pre-2007, which is when the book Science of Survival was amended as part of the 'Golden Age of Knowledge' program to remove homosexuals from the lower rungs of the 'tone scale' - which when combined with Hubbard's statements that the world would be better off if individuals low on the tone scale were 'deleted', essentially advocated for genocide of homosexuals! Or at the very least theorized such a genocide could be possibly beneficial to mankind.)

The guy in the video I posted earlier addressed this somewhat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32sHgGKmFLg

RomToggins · Sep 7, 2024

Tomasoares said:
Which accounts?

Watch the video I just reposted

Linkin Park announces return with Emily Armstrong as new co-vocalist; single The Emptiness Machine released, album From Zero releasing November 15

Late to the party

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth

GSP

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