Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,561
UK
I would agree but also disagree to a certain extent because of Kanye being really the first black rapper to also be considered an 'artist'. Not to say your Jay-Z's, Dr.Dre's etc weren't extremely popular with records in the tens of millions sold but ultimately even while they were selling records they weren't considered necessarily 'important' (even though they clearly were) outside of the usual white gaze for urban music ("Its fun for parties!" "Its gripping street tales")

Arguably without Kanye opening up that commercial AND critical acclaim there would be no pulitzer for Kendrick. His grammy run was the first time I noticed critics and pop gatekeepers started treating rappers like artistic geniuses as opposed to just rappers (even though they always were). Obviously goes to Kanye's BT. Barnum showmanship (and on the low murderers row of collaborators underneath his records) but I can't be mad at someone extraordinarily hurt by this turn because he had a huge cultural impact for the entire genre and sadly in an anti-black world, for regular black folks.
Oh no dont get me wrong, I understand being hurt by it but at the same time its sadly something everyone has to be prepared for now and rightfully so.

Manson as I said was a massive influence in my teens, his songs helped plant seeds that made me question certain things about how society is structured and the hypocrisy involved with religion and other areas. Luckily I wasn't already religious (from my perspective that is lucky) but still it wasn't something that was very common in most music. It was also just a big part of those years for me as that's around the time I got into metal etc. and so he was a staple for me. It was easy to brush away criticism about him as the usual moral panic as he always came across as smart and thoughtful in his interviews I saw. I stopped listening to his stuff after a while so didn't realise the downfall that was slowly building and the hints at what a monster he is so when it came out about his abuse accusations it was pretty hard to deal with.

Now it just gets easier and easier to toss people away that I have issues with, even friends.

I had a friend of over 10 years and was one of my only friends that I actually made the effort with. After a falling out we reconnected after a couple of years and whilst it seemed good at first, I quickly started suspecting that he had been falling down the alt right rabbit hole. After trying to help steer him away from it and thinking I may have had a shot, it became clear the influence was just too much online and he rapidly got worse. Now he has his YouTube channel with over 1.8k subs dedicated to anti SJW/woke nonsense and im glad I kept calling him out publicly on his videos so much he ended up blocking me. Worst part is he is black/Asian and I suspect isnt exactly straight yet he is fully embracing the alt right bullshit.
 

Bengraven

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Oct 26, 2017
31,061
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'White Gaze' is the code word. Even with Dr. Octagon it was 'This isn't like regular rap music!' backhanded compliments.

Hip-Hop has been the most experimental musical art form in forty five years, but white critics still treated it like an alien category that was separate and had nothing to do with your Radioheads or Madonnas.

True. You're right there.

I think a lot of white people don't recognize the artistry in "their own" music at times as well. A lot of extremely popular commercial artists that had a unique and artistic spin on popular music just being disregarded as music to listen to when you're drunk or trailer music.

But also I just never pass up a chance to mention Black Elvis or Doctor Dooooom.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,588
He's bi polar and off his meds- not making excuses- but things are certainly heading in a very dark direction. I feel sorry for his young children.
He's putting the Mania in Maniac At this point. It's all feeding into all his worst impulses he has zero ability to control himself and all these thoughts right now from all it looks like, these are still all conscious choices Like we said no excuses. He Likes this and this is what he wants to be.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
123,739
True. You're right there.

I think a lot of white people don't recognize the artistry in their own music at times as well. A lot of extremely popular commercial artists that had a unique and artistic spin on popular music just being disregarded as music to listen to when you're drunk or trailer music.

But also I just never pass up a chance to mention Black Elvis or Doctor Dooooom.

Actual musical literacy is rare in general, honestly. As long as it sounds "good" - and let's be real, what constitutes "sounds good" varies wildly from person to person - that's usually enough for most folks. Most people don't actually think about things like chord progressions or the mechanics of a guitar riff or the technical mastery of voice, they just go "I like it" and that's good enough.

I remember back when I was younger, there was a hip hop band with a brass section that I used to listen to, and like, their rhymes weren't anything to write home about or anything but, as a former jazz trumpet player myself, I was genuinely impressed with the fact they were able to blend a full instrumental backline with their vocals. My brother shit on me constantly because he didn't like their sound, lol.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,105
Gentrified Brooklyn
Oh no dont get me wrong, I understand being hurt by it but at the same time its sadly something everyone has to be prepared for now and rightfully so.

Manson as I said was a massive influence in my teens, his songs helped plant seeds that made me question certain things about how society is structured and the hypocrisy involved with religion and other areas. Luckily I wasn't already religious (from my perspective that is lucky) but still it wasn't something that was very common in most music. It was also just a big part of those years for me as that's around the time I got into metal etc. and so he was a staple for me. It was easy to brush away criticism about him as the usual moral panic as he always came across as smart and thoughtful in his interviews I saw. I stopped listening to his stuff after a while so didn't realise the downfall that was slowly building and the hints at what a monster he is so when it came out about his abuse accusations it was pretty hard to deal with.

Now it just gets easier and easier to toss people away that I have issues with, even friends.

I had a friend of over 10 years and was one of my only friends that I actually made the effort with. After a falling out we reconnected after a couple of years and whilst it seemed good at first, I quickly started suspecting that he had been falling down the alt right rabbit hole. After trying to help steer him away from it and thinking I may have had a shot, it became clear the influence was just too much online and he rapidly got worse. Now he has his YouTube channel with over 1.8k subs dedicated to anti SJW/woke nonsense and im glad I kept calling him out publicly on his videos so much he ended up blocking me. Worst part is he is black/Asian and I suspect isnt exactly straight yet he is fully embracing the alt right bullshit.

Oh I agree. I think it's a mix of getting more mature and kind of understanding 1)Some people can be cool and shitheads 2)Sometimes you gotta let people drown even if you loved them. That friend shit is sad.
 

Bengraven

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Oct 26, 2017
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Actual musical literacy is rare in general, honestly. As long as it sounds "good" - and let's be real, what constitutes "sounds good" varies wildly from person to person - that's usually enough for most folks. Most people don't actually think about things like chord progressions or the mechanics of a guitar riff or the technical mastery of voice, they just go "I like it" and that's good enough.

I remember back when I was younger, there was a hip hop band with a brass section that I used to listen to, and like, their rhymes weren't anything to write home about or anything but, as a former jazz trumpet player myself, I was genuinely impressed with the fact they were able to blend a full instrumental backline with their vocals. My brother shit on me constantly because he didn't like their sound, lol.

Yeah, growing up in a rural area with a more artistic opinion of things I came across these opinions so much that I eventually started to just not even bring up the topic of artistry in anything, from music to TV shows to movies.

I was obsessed with animation like Liquid Television and I would just get people saying "lol why are you watching cartoons" or "ugh this animation looks horrible" and gave up explaining that they were doing something unique, referencing a classic style, literally college students experimenting, etc.

Speaking of hip-hop, I also played violin, and I remember being obsessed with Reunited on Wu-Tang Forever. I annoy the shit out of my friends because I would not stop talking about the strings.


View: https://youtu.be/0R8BMY12JSU

Anyway, I'll stop derailing this thread.

Damn you, now I gotta go fall into a KK hole. I actually read he dropped some weird collabo album too with an some experimental artist i never heard of; if you sit back and consider how consistent he's been over fucking decades its scary.

I haven't listen to anything since "the return of Dr. Octagon" so you're right, I need to catch up as well.
 

King Alamat

Member
Nov 22, 2017
8,640
I remember back when I was younger, there was a hip hop band with a brass section that I used to listen to, and like, their rhymes weren't anything to write home about or anything but, as a former jazz trumpet player myself, I was genuinely impressed with the fact they were able to blend a full instrumental backline with their vocals. My brother shit on me constantly because he didn't like their sound, lol.
As someone that craves hip-hop with live instrumentation, I'd appreciate if you could drop a link real quick.
 

JaseC64

Enlightened
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,008
Strong Island NY
We need the revenge take from GW. "KANYE hates Jewish people."

Kinda bonkers he would not be wrong here just like Kanye was back then.

People saw this coming for Kanye to be sticking with far right a holes. I do expect him to meet with Spencer and those white national groups at some point.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
123,739
The scariest part of all of this at this point is the fact that we know there is genuinely no floor anymore, so the real question is just "what next?"

As someone that craves hip-hop with live instrumentation, I'd appreciate if you could drop a link real quick.

If I can find any record of their existence I'll PM it to you, lol. My brother smashed my entire music archive drive to bits with a baseball bat a couple years ago when he had a psychotic break.

I have 4 psychiatric disorders, and they don't turn me into a nazi. Let's stop with this shit, shall we?

For real. There's a difference between "having a bad reaction to going off one's meds" and ranting for days at a time about how Jews are evil and calling oneself a Nazi.

This is just who he is.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,561
UK
Oh I agree. I think it's a mix of getting more mature and kind of understanding 1)Some people can be cool and shitheads 2)Sometimes you gotta let people drown even if you loved them. That friend shit is sad.
Yeah it really was.

Funniest part is that if it wasn't for how online I also am and how much I have watched regarding the alt right pipeline and how it funnels people into their bullshit, I wouldn't have picked up on the hints.

Pre-initial falling out he loved PlayStation and the MCU, post reconciliation he hated Playstation and the MCU. Seems innocuous enough but for anyone who knows this stuff that sudden shit in opinion and with those specific brands was enough to raise my eyebrow. He would then come out with the occasional dodgy comment his Youtube videos and at first I started going to him directly to share my thoughts about why I disagreed etc. I thought I was even turning him around when he went from hating The last of us part 2 (even though he hadn't played it) to actually playing it and giving it a 10 out of 10.

Sadly the frequency and scale increased so I ended up responding in his comments specifically, non combative at first but by the end I was just calling out how stupid and wrong his comments were, all whilst giving detailed reasons why. He eventually blocked me lol. I think he just got caught up in the end by the extra attention his anti SJW stuff was getting him and he gladly threw himself down the pipeline. I check every now and then and his video titles are just pure shit that fits right along with the cesspool portion of YouTube.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,105
Gentrified Brooklyn
Yeah, growing up in a rural area with a more artistic opinion of things I came across these opinions so much that I eventually started to just not even bring up the topic of artistry in anything, from music to TV shows to movies.

I was obsessed with animation like Liquid Television and I would just get people saying "lol why are you watching cartoons" or "ugh this animation looks horrible" and gave up explaining that they were doing something unique, referencing a classic style, literally college students experimenting, etc.

Speaking of hip-hop, I also played violin, and I remember being obsessed with Reunited on Wu-Tang Forever. I annoy the shit out of my friends because I would not stop talking about the strings.


View: https://youtu.be/0R8BMY12JSU

Anyway, I'll stop derailing this thread.



I haven't listen to anything since "the return of Dr. Octagon" so you're right, I need to catch up as well.


One of the funniest things has been seeing critics go back and re-evaluate shit with a more appreciative lens. Like speaking of Wu I remember when they blew up and it was all about again 'gritty street tales and dirty rza production'. I read something recently like was like 'the pop songwriting of the Wu' and I was like damn right! Like songs about dodging cops don't get you on MTV when they actually had videos, but hooks like 'M-E-T-H-O-D…maaaan' and an addicting 'if you want beef bring the rukus/wu tang clan aint nothing to fuck with' definitely will.

And I think this thread needed a temporary derail and smoke break, lol.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,276

Meanwhile the most stable POTUS Yedolf Yeetler

I just want to make a few things clear:

The Holocaust never happened.

Hitler was an angelic figure.

And instead of deplatforming, our political leaders should be embracing antisemitism wherever it rises.

Voice is power.

4599f54087feff42d47050c3f3fc7dc0
 

ultraluna

Member
Jun 3, 2020
2,564
He's bi polar and off his meds- not making excuses- but things are certainly heading in a very dark direction. I feel sorry for his young children.
He definitely needs help, but he's still responsible for his actions. I have mental conditions as well, but if I don't take my meds you won't see me defending Hitler on Alex Jones, that's for sure. He's famous, someone people (used to) look up to, the harm he's doing to society bringing up Nazi talking points and pointing a spotlight to lunatics like Tim Pool and Nick Fuentes is irreparable. He should be deplatformed immediately and face consequences. And I'm talking as a big fan of his work.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
29,852
Chicago
He's bi polar and off his meds- not making excuses- but things are certainly heading in a very dark direction. I feel sorry for his young children.
you're right, it's not an excuse.

and your compassion is a good thing but it's misplaced with someone like Kanye because he does not want help and thinks he's better than people. people have tried to help him for years, there are plenty of stories and rumors out there about his escapades behind the seen and people who have tried to confront him and get him help. not all of his circle was enablers. he's just hopeless. it sucks but you can't save em all.

he can absolutely be a stupid asshole who says bigoted hateful hurtful shit and someone suffering from untreated mental illness who turns down help from both professionals and friends. i have no idea what this site's fascination is with painting people as just one thing. but the Kanye issue bleeds into another issue where the mental health issues of black men and women are generally waved off as a nonfactor or nonexistent.

it's different with Kanye because he can afford treatment and people try to help him but he turns them down and then belittles them. but you are lying to yourself if you think this is normal behavior. he can say whatever he wants but pay attention to his actions and what he is doing. the guy is going on any fucking podcast or publication that will have him and is becoming a content cow where everyone is getting a slice of the beef for content. and this thread sitting at 103 pages is proof of that, people love the beef. they like it when this dude makes Elon and Alex Jones seem like reasonable people, it's a trainwreck that's hard to look away from.

acknowledging he is both a bigoted douche and has mental health issues is just acknowledging a fact. it's not making excuses. i do not like people trying to control the discourse this way because i am immediately suspicious of it. as someone who is black and has had his mental health issues ignored up until he was 27. like there is a clear difference between Chappelle going on stage and coherently making transphobic jokes and Joanne Rowling doing the same shit on Twitter with a shit-eating grin. and Kanye wearing a fucking ski mask making no sense whatsoever, saying the craziest shit on every podcast imaginable, and looking like a deer in headlights while he does it. this guy is lost.
 

wisdom0wl

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,188
god damn can some of y'all stop with mentioning him having BPD and being off his meds. Shit is beyond annoying at this point

None of that makes him a piece of shit, it's just who he is. I loved his music too but it's over. Wrap it up man. Fuck.
 

Truly Gargantuan

Still doesn't have a tag :'(
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,034

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,203
Columbus, OH
god damn can some of y'all stop with mentioning him having BPD and being off his meds. Shit is beyond annoying at this point

None of that makes him a piece of shit, it's just who he is. I loved his music too but it's over. Wrap it up man. Fuck.

honestly, should be warning/ban worthy at this point. it reeks of ableism and it's really hurtful for those that have/deal with BPD on a normal basis.

My SO is aghast at Kanye's behavior. She has BPD. If she stops taking her meds, is she suddenly going to become an anti-semite?

Literally the worst defense/rationalization ever.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,786
He's bi polar and off his meds- not making excuses- but things are certainly heading in a very dark direction. I feel sorry for his young children.

Nazism is NOT a mental illness, nor a symptom of any mental illness. It can be impressed upon people by other Nazis and extremists, but it is not a condition. It is a learned, influenced, or chosen behavior.

Stop making excuses.
 

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,480
Michigan
True. You're right there.

I think a lot of white people don't recognize the artistry in "their own" music at times as well. A lot of extremely popular commercial artists that had a unique and artistic spin on popular music just being disregarded as music to listen to when you're drunk or trailer music.

But also I just never pass up a chance to mention Black Elvis or Doctor Dooooom.
I mean most people just think of the Beach Boys as a novelty act thanks to Mike Love instead of one of the most influential groups in modern popular music, so yeah, you're probably right.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,786
So they just showed a clip on my local news of Kanye on the Alex Jones show with a black mask over his head, talking about liking Hitler. First time I saw this.


Is that really Kanye? Why is he wearing a mask over his head?

And why is Alex Jones still doing a show at all when he owes millions of dollars to Sandy Hook families?

The hell is wrong with the world?
 

JoJo'sDentCo

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,812
So they just showed a clip on my local news of Kanye on the Alex Jones show with a black mask over his head, talking about liking Hitler. First time I saw this.


Is that really Kanye? Why is he wearing a mask over his head?

And why is Alex Jones still doing a show at all when he owes millions of dollars to Sandy Hook families?

The hell is wrong with the world?
The answer to your questions: the world is full of horrible sickos.
 

Bengraven

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Oct 26, 2017
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I mean most people just think of the Beach Boys as a novelty act thanks to Mike Love instead of one of the most influential groups in modern popular music, so yeah, you're probably right.

I was part of the detractors for a bit. Grew up with a certain demographic playing The Beach Boys as their distraction/drinking music so I started associating the band with lower class white people getting drunk at the lake.

When Brian Wilson started putting out critically beloved albums that my cultured (or just straight up pretentious) friends were obsessed with I didn't believe it was "the beach boy" at first until a Spin article.