I think I also read somewhere that previous games were not balanced with XP share in mind, but Sw/Sh was?
I'm not sure where I read/heard this from....
I'm not sure where I read/heard this from....
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It is kind of hard to play older pokemon games after playing Sword/Shield.
- Thread starter rrost
- Start date
I actually didn't mean to quote you too, it was still in the draft from earlier and didn't notice before I hit reply
Its still an enjoyable game but there is so many flaws that previous titles didn' t have that are apparent.
It was a game I enjoyed my time with but everytime I think back to it I just constantly dislike it more and more.
That sounds like bs as SW/SH didn't have a single difficult encounter.
The HM thing is one that's just baffling playing older titles. Like the intended design is for multiple Pokémon in your party to be saddled with shit moves (for the most part), and that includes having an HM slave holding 4 of them.
There's no gameplay justification for it at all imo.
There's no gameplay justification for it at all imo.
OP
OP
Yes, I was thinking of Ultra Sun, since that is the one I am playing now haha.
So just anecdotally I'd say that is probably true. I played through Gen 2, using only my started pokemon, and at times I was 15-20 levels above the other trainer. Even with the exp share in SwSh, and mainly only using my starter, I found that I would usually only end up with a couple pokemon 5-10 levels higher. Might be different for the different gens but that was my experience with 2.
E: Ignore this: probably a bad comparison.
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Gen 7 is absolutely balanced with xp share on in mind, and people turning it off did to intentionally have a greater challenge. It was fine. Loved getting into Poni island and having some real tough spots for a change
Gen 8 isnt balanced by any sense. Its incredibly easy from the get-go and got so many mechanics that can break it into billion pieces that you actively need to avoid and not use and the only way to not overlevel the major fights you get through the story is to actively avoid fighting and playing the game
Are you really surprised that by using only one pokemon you end up overleveled and is comparing it with using a bunch in the new games to say it was worse? Are you even arguing in good faith? Specially because gen 2 is notoriously stingy with xp and people complain of the opposite
Awesome! Will plan to pick up Brilliant Diamond at some point then.
I've learned my lesson to never post in a pokemon thread again.
I guess I mis-remembered this then.
Didn't mean to get everyone (more) mad in this thread...
it's fine, the fires of the pokemon war will keep raging for several other reasons, you did no harm
and you probably heard what you heard about gen 7, Sun/Moon are definitely balanced with having it on
Jesus christ. I started with 'anecdotally'. I didn't try to hide that I used my starter almost exclusively in gen 2, and I said I did mostly the same in Gen 8. I said that it seems like modern gens feel balanced around having it on (so I don't get where the 'it's worse' is coming from). And to the contrary I prefer using only my started in gen 2 precisely because it can be stingy with XP midgame.
It might have just been a bad comparison or I might be misremembering somewhat, but I'm not arguing in bad faith and there's no need to accuse me of such. I'm just recounting my (extremely anecdotal) experience to the best of my recollection.
I will agree that even though the peak level gap might not be as large SwSh felt a bit easier, maybe down to have abuseable the dynamax mechanic is. But towards the end of the game there were a couple tough moment(s).
Pokémon's difficulty has always been this low, we were just younger and so it felt harder.
There's a reason people have always set their own challenges to make it "difficult"
Gen 8 is balanced too, but balanced around you not sitting and grinding raids in the Wild Are
Oh, no problem then. I understand that SwSh is loved by a ton of people. Most players, actually. But for me, having religiously played through every single entry several times since 1998... I just couldn't bring myself to finish it. Game Freak takes more and more away each entry and replaces it with something that for me is shallow and uninspired. I don't need Pokémon to be Dark Souls (it never was hard, even if I was 9 when I started playing), but at least it needs to accommodate different playstyles and approaches. You could do it with the older titles because they were flexible enough for you to tailor the experience in a way that made sense for you. But not anymore. The games are very hand-holdy, linear and, dare I say it, blatantly easy. They don't challenge you. They give you everyting in a platter.
Unless you have only one pokemon at hand in gen 8, its not the same. the way exp share works and cant be turned off makes it completely different. if all that xp went to just the one pokemon you have, just like it was in gen 2, you would be far more overleveled in gen 8 (since it gives extra xp on top of the base xp you would normally get). And thats not even taking into account all the other things you can do to make the gap even bigger (using candies, camp bonuses, etcetera)
Its just not a good comparison at all. Gen 8 is "balanced" around you ignoring most of its features, items, not fighting too many fights and rotating your team constantly so you can keep an even level with everything else. That's hardly balancing anymore when it requires you to jump so many hoops and basically dont play your game.
Reviewed decently as one of the worst averages in the series for a while? and sales for Pokemon are meaningless to defend a game as any metric of quality. The Switch as a console has stuff like Ring Fit doing double million digits and a port of Mario Kart in like 40m. All you mostly have to do is slap a name on a switch box and it sells.
The game is one of the worst ones in the series, the reception to it is all over the place (Ive seen more people dislike it than liking it) so it is what it is.
I am someone that finds it hard to go back to a lot of old games in general, and I think I hear you about a lot of the in between stuff being cut out of Pokemon in particular just making it a better experience for you.
That being said, the good Pokemon ROM hacks totally hit the right way. Cutting out HMs, always being able to run around, a general tendency towards killer and away from filler typically make them pretty good!
That being said, the good Pokemon ROM hacks totally hit the right way. Cutting out HMs, always being able to run around, a general tendency towards killer and away from filler typically make them pretty good!
Ita been easy for a long time, but I disagree that it's always been this easy.
Playing RBY on the VC around when they launched on the 3DS, and those games are very evidently a significant amount more challenging than anything from Pokémon in a longgg time. Both in level design and how much the game expects the player to be worn down between areas.
The newer games aren't vastly easier. I feel like people think that the games are easier these days is because the exp share cuts out any required grinding from older games. I'm playing through hgss right now, and it feels more difficult because I am so underleveled. The longevity of certain routes and how each route has fight after fight is what feels like its harder.
If that were true Let's Go would have sold much better than… worse than ORAS.
Thats not "feeling its harder", that is being harder. Non linear routes, more attrition, more item management, more investment to make your pokemons stronger, less tools to ignore type disadvantages, less freebies that break the game, restricted access to the stronger moves and pokemon, everything is tied to difficulty. Pokemon was never hard, but it was never as easy as from the 3DS games onwards either, thats a disingenuous misdirection
Sword and Shield isn't that easy but I remember buying many potions and hyper potions in old PK games because you can go a long while without hitting a PK Center.
13.57m for like the 4th return to Kanto in a non-traditional sorta Pokemon game? Thats like super good for it but doesnt make the game any better either.
Thanks for the clarification. I was definitely not as aware of the exp share mechanics in SwSh. I might have also not battled all the trainers and stuff I came across either. Idk.
Yeah I think this is lost a lot. The older games weren't Dark Souls by any means but they felt like they had generally more challenge than newer ones. BW2 can be horrendous if you're levelling a full team, as can endgame Gen 4.
There are some standout difficulty moments in later gens though. Totem Lurantis, Ultra Necrozma and Leon were reasonable to pretty significant challenges.
Honestly really loved the level bump in USUM.
I do think the easiest thing would be for GF to add a sanctioned hard mode, that locks the style to set so you don't get to exploit the opponent as easily, randomizes trainer pokemon order, and makes the AI a bit more punishing. Boosting levels runs into the issue where your pokemon just catch up faster. Other things could be limited item usage per battle, stop the nonstop healing npcs everywhere, and no box anywhere system until you've beaten the game.
You're seeing people in your echo chamber. I see a wide variety from across all spectrums
And no, sales aren't meaningless if they keep selling. People enjoy the game and it does well. Yes it's the "lowest" on metacritic for quite a while but it's not reviewed badly or mediocrely.
And no, many Switch games still bomb or don't do well. Many Pokémon spin-offs have not done well.
One of the most consistently asked for things in pokemon is for a higher level difficulty. And outside of one time they had a harder difficulty level in Gen 5 (In one of the weirdest ways ever that it's it own thread discussion on a consistent basis) they haven't done much to make it trickier since then. So I see why it's mentioned a lot.
Games have been balanced to finish instead of pushing for challenge. Pretty much always have. There are some games that individually harder than others. But it's not a linear curve. I'd argue Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon is probably the hardest game in the series due to it's Totem Bosses and the absolute wall that is Ultra Necrozma (But only with the EXP Share Off, otherwise it's probably Platinum or Black and White that's the hardest game in the series).
Just be prepared for the tidal wave of responses of people saying they weren't always this easy because whilst you can super easily break the old games with X-Items all the way back in Gen 1, it's a lot easier to unintentionally do it in the more recent games with stuff like the EXP Share changes and the Affection Buffs that let you dodge moves you shouldn't dodge, shake off status ailments, survive lethal attacks and boost your EXP further.
I do consistently see Gen 6 get marked the most due to being the game with the new EXP Changes them throwing at you Mega Lucario and Mega Latias/Latios at you midway through the game, pokemon that can easily solo the games by themselves.
There's also stuff like just being able to see which moves will do Super Effective damage on the UI now, no issues with that in particular though, helps having to remember a chart, and there's still the discovery phase with new pokemon as well. Helps for pokemon with weird typings like Drapion.
Gonna be interesting to see how BDSP handles with difficulty. I'm still wanting to see what they do with the EXP Share in that game. Hopefully there's a setting to mirror how it worked in original Diamond and Pearl, because I've not been a major fan of the new EXP System for the mainline stories as it's often resulted in having an overleveled team that never really gets challenged.
Yeah I get that. However, Pokémon games have consistently been easy, just sometimes with a level spike which requires you to grind or struggle. That's not difficulty, that's poor game design. Heck, people say the games were more open. They weren't. Even places like Rock Tunnel, Mt. Moon, Viridian Forest etc. are pretty much a straight line, just with a couple of little offshoot areas to confuse you.
I also agree that USUM are the hardest in the series. If you hit
Ultra Necrozma
The "level spikes" can absolutely be beaten without grinding or struggling, just smart team management or just smart strategies in case of nuzlockes where you dont get to pick your team anyway
But i guess this is what is bad game design is, not saying gen 8 is balanced as long as you ignore raids, candies, camps, staying in the wild area, fighting the trainers in your way and not using Dynamax.
big shrugs
Pokémon games from hardest to easiest: (main story only)
Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon
Sun and Moon
Black 2 and White 2
Black and White
Diamond and Pearl
Emerald
Platinum
Sword and Shield
Ruby and Sapphire
Red and Blue
X and Y
Gold and Silver
More or less how I remember them. Didn't include remakes cause then it gets a bit complicated.
Gen 2 is so easy it's crazy
Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon
Sun and Moon
Black 2 and White 2
Black and White
Diamond and Pearl
Emerald
Platinum
Sword and Shield
Ruby and Sapphire
Red and Blue
X and Y
Gold and Silver
More or less how I remember them. Didn't include remakes cause then it gets a bit complicated.
Gen 2 is so easy it's crazy
Was it? All I remember is that by the time you get the 8th badge your Pokemon are barely level 36 😂
Yeah you're constantly under level and… it's still so easy. I beat Red whose team is around lv 80 with a team that was barely lv 45
Gold & Silver have so many problems, and that is definitely one of them
Sun/Moon/USUM are garbage to play through because the games won't get out of your way, but other than that I greatly enjoy all the older games more than SwSh. SwSh route design is ass, there aren't any dungeons, and the game is just ugly. At least the DS games hold up well to me because of the art style, especially BW/BW2. HGSS/BW are the games I go back to the most in the series, absolutely love them.
Despite the level curve I don't really mind it while actually playing, it's very relaxing. HGSS fixed everything else except the small selection of Pokémon available, so they're at the top of my favorites
I think Sword/Shield streamlined things too much. The QoL updates are great for postgame, I love that I can create a PVP-ready Pokemon in like 10 minutes now. But for the main game it has flattened things too much. I'm someone who believes that there can be value in inconveniencing the player to a point, which is why I usually don't agree with a lot of the "improvements" to RPGs people propose on this forum, and Pokemon is a good example of that.
You can rotate your party on the fly, you have access to dozens of Pokemon through the Wild Area before Gym 1, you can see most wild encounters beforehand, letting you always slot in the Pokemon that best counters it, the escape rope is unlimited, (not that you'll ever need it) you can do raids and get access to strong TR moves right off the bat... it's like impossible for the game to ever put you in a fail state. It feels like playing Pokemon with hacks.
And while I don't think Pokemon was ever really "hard", it was built around that old Dragon Quest-like DNA of managing resources between checkpoints that I loved about this genre. Sword/Shield on the other hand, feels like it's almost uninterested in itself, like it just wants to hurry you to the credits so you can get to raiding and PVP.
That said I do like Sw/Sh--I have by far the most hours in the series on it and I'd probably put it in top half of the series in terms of enjoyability overall. But IMO if they're gonna streamline things to this degree I think they need to rethink the core game design.
You can rotate your party on the fly, you have access to dozens of Pokemon through the Wild Area before Gym 1, you can see most wild encounters beforehand, letting you always slot in the Pokemon that best counters it, the escape rope is unlimited, (not that you'll ever need it) you can do raids and get access to strong TR moves right off the bat... it's like impossible for the game to ever put you in a fail state. It feels like playing Pokemon with hacks.
And while I don't think Pokemon was ever really "hard", it was built around that old Dragon Quest-like DNA of managing resources between checkpoints that I loved about this genre. Sword/Shield on the other hand, feels like it's almost uninterested in itself, like it just wants to hurry you to the credits so you can get to raiding and PVP.
That said I do like Sw/Sh--I have by far the most hours in the series on it and I'd probably put it in top half of the series in terms of enjoyability overall. But IMO if they're gonna streamline things to this degree I think they need to rethink the core game design.
It does seem like they're rethinking the basics, because of Legends. Obviously not everything will carry over in the future but the loop will have to be different to accommodate what sticks
I actually don't really like it as a difficulty because it's just really a wall of stats to overcome. It has 4 different moves, if you are weak to one of them you are probably going to get fainted due to it. After that it's a battle of attrition.
I think Totem Lurantis is the right level of difficulty for the game and what the series should aim for. Just to review it.
It's probably going to start the match with Solar Blade, an insanely damaging move, and it has a Power Herb to show you instantly how strong it is so you know to be careful, it also teaches you the power of held items if you haven't been using them already. But it just gets it the one time, so you get a bit of a reprieve when it's charging it up... but then it's allies come in, and the allies can set up the sun. Allowing it to drop Solar Blade turn after turn on you. It even blocks statuses and gets better healing off synthesis. It shows the power of Sun and weather effects, but as you learn, Lurantis doesn't have the ability to set up the sun itself, so it tells you to prioritise taking out the support... but you can also use the sun to your advantage as well, Lurantis is grass type, so if you have a fire type, you can do more damage to it in the sun as well.
It's one of the best designed fights in the series just due to what it teaches you about the game, and the only let-down for it is with the EXP Share on you may just have a fire type like your Torracat one shot it with Max Flare before being able to see any part of it.
It's what I want to see key gym leader fights be like in pokemon, but Sw/Sh let me down on this front because outside of like, Maybe Raihan with his weather based gym done entirely in double matches, you don't get anything close to how cooly setup this is. In fact you have actively bad matches like Piers who seems to initially be based teaching you about abilities with bringing attention to them in his song lyrics, as he leads with a Scrafty that he says will Intimidate the opponent, which is does. But then he brings out Malamar and he tells you to watch out for it's Contrary Ability and has... no moves whatsoever that activate Contrary for it at all (It's the 7th gym, you can give it Superpower at this point to show off that cool interaction). Then he just tells you two moves the Skunktank has and tells you absolutely nothing about his Obstagoon. It doesn't flow anywhere near as well as the Lurantis does. Doesn't help that Spikemuth gym is one of the more plain gym designs in the series just being a single straight line that you fight goons in, and I get the beat-them-up theme they are going for, but why do you have regular Mr Mimes if you are later going to establish that Mr Mimes in Galar became more Ice LIke Tap Dancer... this is getting sidetracked at this point I feel, in brief, more stuff like Totem Lurantis, less stuff like Piers.
Yeah I'm interested in seeing how Legends will feel. From what I've seen it's not personally the direction I'd like the series to go in, but at the very least it probably won't feel like it's at war with itself.
Oh I'm totally with you here. Totem battles got brutalI actually don't really like it as a difficulty because it's just really a wall of stats to overcome. It has 4 different moves, if you are weak to one of them you are probably going to get fainted due to it. After that it's a battle of attrition.
I think Totem Lurantis is the right level of difficulty for the game and what the series should aim for. Just to review it.
It's probably going to start the match with Solar Blade, an insanely damaging move, and it has a Power Herb to show you instantly how strong it is so you know to be careful, it also teaches you the power of held items if you haven't been using them already. But it just gets it the one time, so you get a bit of a reprieve when it's charging it up... but then it's allies come in, and the allies can set up the sun. Allowing it to drop Solar Blade turn after turn on you. It even blocks statuses and gets better healing off synthesis. It shows the power of Sun and weather effects, but as you learn, Lurantis doesn't have the ability to set up the sun itself, so it tells you to prioritise taking out the support... but you can also use the sun to your advantage as well, Lurantis is grass type, so if you have a fire type, you can do more damage to it in the sun as well.
It's one of the best designed fights in the series just due to what it teaches you about the game, and the only let-down for it is with the EXP Share on you may just have a fire type like your Torracat one shot it with Max Flare before being able to see any part of it.
It's what I want to see key gym leader fights be like in pokemon, but Sw/Sh let me down on this front because outside of like, Maybe Raihan with his weather based gym done entirely in double matches, you don't get anything close to how cooly setup this is. In fact you have actively bad matches like Piers who seems to initially be based teaching you about abilities with bringing attention to them in his song lyrics, as he leads with a Scrafty that he says will Intimidate the opponent, which is does. But then he brings out Malamar and he tells you to watch out for it's Contrary Ability and has... no moves whatsoever that activate Contrary for it at all (It's the 7th gym, you can give it Superpower at this point to show off that cool interaction). Then he just tells you two moves the Skunktank has and tells you absolutely nothing about his Obstagoon. It doesn't flow anywhere near as well as the Lurantis does. Doesn't help that Spikemuth gym is one of the more plain gym designs in the series just being a single straight line that you fight goons in, and I get the beat-them-up theme they are going for, but why do you have regular Mr Mimes if you are later going to establish that Mr Mimes in Galar became more Ice LIke Tap Dancer... this is getting sidetracked at this point I feel, in brief, more stuff like Totem Lurantis, less stuff like Piers.
Gen 2 has a borked level curve due to the split at Ecruteak. But those first few gyms are killers. Pidgeotto, Scyther (More HG/SS compared to OG GSC, but if it gets too many Fury Cutters off you will have a bad time), Miltank. They are all tricky to take down. And then here comes Morty with his Haunters and Gengar. Gen 6 doesn't even have anything come close to those matchup wise. And then the lack of EXP the region has can give you a tough time at the elite 4 as well. I'd probably put Gold, Silver and Crystal just under Ruby and Sapphire on the difficulty list.
That's what I said. They always fix some things, but there are always things left to fix for the next generation.
Can't say I have this issue, though I can sort of see where you're coming from.
I like Sword and Shield, but my heart's still glued to Gens 4 and 5 overall, with 7 not far behind.
I like Sword and Shield, but my heart's still glued to Gens 4 and 5 overall, with 7 not far behind.