Also I don't understand the hate here. Call me old fashioned but I enjoy looking at half naked sexualized character models of the opposite gender from time to time. I don't enjoy or agree with the sexualization of underage girls or of women with unrealistic proportions. But Quiet looks perfectly fine to me.
The real outrage should be that there are not enough sexualized men in games. The other gender should have something to look at too. I'm sure they are less prim about it than most members here.
The problem is that too frequently the primary role for women in media is to be ogled. It is a real issue that needs to be addressed. In a world where there were a wide variety of depictions of women in fiction, this would be less of a problem. Sure, things are getting better, but not fast enough. Especially the stuff coming out of Japan. Character designs coming out of Japan have gotten increasingly more objectifying over the years.
This type of shit, given the wider context, is dehumanizing and more than a little disturbing. Being old fashioned, in this regard, isn't quaint, it is an act of willful ignorance.
She's not even in the top 50, hell not even the top 500. There are some awful character designs out there you just don't see because the game's aren't as big as the game she was from.
She's honestly tame by comparison to at least 10 I can think of off the top of my head and these characters aren't even sexualized.
The problem is that too frequently the primary role for women in media is to be ogled. It is a real issue that needs to be addressed. In a world where there were a wide variety of depictions of women in fiction, this would be less of a problem. Sure, things are getting better, but not fast enough. Especially the stuff coming out of Japan. Character designs coming out of Japan have gotten increasingly more objectifying over the years.
This type of shit, given the wider context, is dehumanizing and more than a little disturbing.
I understand the problem. IMO it's not dehumanizing. I think men should be objectified just the same. Of course I'm talking about fictional characters only.
What is dehumanizing are the disrespectful reactions of some people (mostly men) who consume media with these sexualized characters. But that is the problem of men and not the media itself IMO.
Also I don't understand the hate here. Call me old fashioned but I enjoy looking at half naked sexualized character models of the opposite gender from time to time. I don't enjoy or agree with the sexualization of underage girls or of women with unrealistic proportions. But Quiet looks perfectly fine to me.
The real outrage should be that there are not enough sexualized men in games. The other gender should have something to look at too. I'm sure they are less prim about it than most members here.
Not even close, at least she is an adult, unlike the many wack ass JRPG designs I have seen. Now Quiet is still bad and the reasoning is stupid, but I would take her over the large number of shit like what Xenoblade 2 has for example.
Nah. I mean, I don't think it's a good design, and Kojima's excuse for it was hilariously awful but some of the XB2 designs already posted are painful just to look at.
I Googled the moon rabbit thing and there's a huge discrepancy between whatever the fuck that big tittied monstrosity is and the actual mythology and legend. I love Xenoblade 2 but the characters are all embarrassing, cringey bullshit.
Living in a foreign land, surrounded by people she could barely communicate with, Stefanie Joosten was lonely.
www.vg247.com
Similar to what I wrote in my post here about Quiet. She understands the criticism but it doesn't bother her cause Quiet has a good arc etc. I agree with her but sure I know people won't.
I feel the same way about Xenoblade 2 tbh... I get that the designs are questionable but I really ended up liking Pyra, Mythra, etc. I can't say the same for no character development and tits on a screen that is Cindy in FFXV.
Going through this thread, it reminded me of these Twitter threads,
A lot of unpractical female characters outfits would be easier to stomach if they were fashionable, chic, and/or aesthetically pleasing instead whatever the hell jrpg girls are wearing.
+1'ing this post mainly because it highlights a core issue being highlighted by a lot of the posts ITT: the "inmates running the asylum" recursiveness of nerd-centric industries where incoming creators who are solely mega-fans of a particular medium (and solely in a consumerist sense) take roles in said medium and proceed to create what they themselves would consume.
If the only thing about female character design you know of is a list of sexy anime waifus then no doubt your approach to female character design is going to revolve around sexy anime waifus.
+1'ing this post mainly because it highlights a core issue being highlighted by a lot of the posts ITT: the "inmates running the asylum" recursiveness of nerd-centric industries where incoming creators who are solely mega-fans of a particular medium (and solely in a consumerist sense) take roles in said medium and proceed to create what they themselves would consume.
If the only thing about female character design you know of is a list of sexy anime waifus then no doubt your approach to female character design is going to revolve around sexy anime waifus.
I really like Quiet as an idea, as a character, but her design and behavior in the helicopter and during the shower/rain scenes is just... ugh. It's beyond cringey.
Xenoblade 2 is another one, I really enjoy that game's story, world, and even some of the characters! It's a good game! But it's one I have a very hard time recommending to others and the horrible character design is a big part of it.
Ditto for Nier Automata. Love that game, easily my favorite game of the 2010's, but 2B and A2's designs make it difficult to recommend to others. :(
Living in a foreign land, surrounded by people she could barely communicate with, Stefanie Joosten was lonely.
www.vg247.com
Similar to what I wrote in my post here about Quiet. She understands the criticism but it doesn't bother her cause Quiet has a good arc etc. I agree with her but sure I know people won't.
I feel the same way about Xenoblade 2 tbh... I get that the designs are questionable but I really ended up liking Pyra, Mythra, etc. I can't say the same for no character development and tits on a screen that is Cindy in FFXV.
Oh the actual characters in Xenoblade 2 are generally pretty good. I was surprised how much I liked Pyra. But the thread is about character designs and not character as in character arc, etc. I actually think the in-game model for Pyra is a lot worse than the image people often show of her. Since I was picking the game back up in prep for the remaster of 1 coming out, I was very aware what this thread was about to turn into. lol.
But I feel like we've covered lots of ugly, sexualized characters. Give me more Wander shots!
I understand the problem. IMO it's not dehumanizing. I think men should be objectified just the same. Of course I'm talking about fictional characters only.
What is dehumanizing are the disrespectful reactions of some people (mostly men) who consume media with these sexualized characters. But that is the problem of men and not the media itself IMO.
The entire point is that we do not live in a world where it is equal, it is dehumanizing because women are constantly and constantly objectified to directly appeal to the male audience. They are used as a sexual focus to sell a product.
All due respect, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Yes, in an ideal world it would be great if we could explore sexuality positively as that can be a wonderful thing, but as it is right now? Women are specifically objectified and sold directly to the male gaze, and that's not deniable.
"Sexy bunny girl" is neither fun nor creative. Also, it quite fails as being an interpretation of a rabbit - the rabbit elements are way downplayed compared to the sexualized elements. I just showed the art to my GF and a few friends we have over, and none of them noticed it was supposed to be a rabbit until I pointed out the tail and some other elements. To be frank, anything that might read as "rabbit" here gets buried behind about 400 pounds of "look like something you'd see in an ad on PornHub".
I think maybe they tried to spin this overused design trope by attempting a "refuge in audacity" - Making her SO overly sexualized it no longer reads as sexualization. This of course doesn't work at all, because when it comes to sexualization in games the situation is so dire we have a full-on Poe Law thing going - The designs are so whack, you can't even parody them or exaggerate without it reading as sincere.
That's your opinion though, and one you can rightfully have. It's understandably an over-the-top design that everyone won't like. But I personally do, and the woman who designed Dahlia must have had some creative thoughts coming up with her design since she has hair that braids down into floppy ears, claws that protrude out into heals, or snowflakes that lattice into a dress. I mean, I've drawn a "sexy" dragon lady before - and I felt pretty creative drawing it and had fun.
I think the ears are the biggest giveaway about her design, and the large animal hands. You can tell she's not meant to be a simple human character. Though her official art has a weird angle that might make the perspective seem a little off at first, but her in-game model is much more apparent.
I don't quite understand the Poes Law thing you mentioned, but all I know is that Dahlia is intended to be something fantastical, over-the-top, creative, unrealistic, fun, distinct, imaginative, etc. She fits in with the world she's a part of and she's her own unique character.
I didn't post that drawing to justify anything. It was just a cute drawing I thought I'd add in and another example of how a rabbits dewlap could be creatively interpreted as breasts.
A lot of the time it actually does. Oftentimes the rules of character design are thrown out in favor of the designer's personal fetishes. Which they speak about openly in interviews and such. When you see a character like Link, every aspect of his design tells you about his role. Every little belt, piece of equipment, pouches, etc. you get the full picture:
meanwhile, sexualized character designs often look like an almagation of the designer's fetishes and/or designed to appeal to a presumably straight male audience's fetishes:
ok so the designer clearly likes
-catgirls
-knee high boots
-high heels
-revealing outfits that make no sense
-broken spines
Oh.. she has a witch hat, she must be a witch, now if only the other aspects of the outfit reflected that.
It's a poor approach to character design especially since it's such a one sided affair.We've gotten some fantastic character designs when it comes to designers putting in effort beyond "Well my fetish=x so this character needs that." The end result are character designs that all fit the bill of their job description as a result in the same way Link does.
Ostracised queen turned assassin:
Parkour expert in a futuristic dystopian city:
Former pilot turned superhero:
Struggling Survivor in a zombie apocalypse:
Inquisitor who hunts jedi and works for the empire:
An assassin in Ancient Egypt:
Let's go full circle:
A mage/witch in a fantasy game:
Quiet's outfit tells me nothing about the character because that's not it's intent first and foremost. Which just tells me that it's bad character design for a poorly written character. 👏
I vote yes. It's one of the only time in my gaming experience when I was more than happy to dress a female character with an alternate costume. Her exposure is ridiculous.
A lot of the time it actually does. Oftentimes the rules of character design are thrown out in favor of the designer's personal fetishes. Which they speak about openly in interviews and such. When you see a character like Link, every aspect of his design tells you about his role. Every little belt, piece of equipment, pouches, etc. you get the full picture:
meanwhile, sexualized character designs often look like an almagation of the designer's fetishes and/or designed to appeal to a presumably straight male audience's fetishes:
ok so the designer clearly likes
-catgirls
-knee high boots
-revealing outfits that make no sense
Oh.. she has a witch hat, she must be a witch, now if only the other aspects of the outfit reflected that.
It's a poor approach to character design especially since it's such a one sided affair.
Yeah. You can even see it in how the characters are posed in their artwork. Link there has the camera looking up at him, as he stares determinedly off at something with an arrow nocked. He's not tense, but he's alert, an armed and confident adventurer. That... witch cat thing. The facial expression is one of passive, barely-there disinterest. The spine-cracking pose while sitting is only to increase the percentage of total space focused on her chest and thighs, which are also the section with the contrasting pattern of missing material designed to draw the eye.
This aspect of art direction, how the user's eye is guided by pose, camera, framing, gait, body language, expression and animation, is related to the character designs but often a missing context when a viewer looks at a dumb sexualised design and goes 'its not that bad', without seeing how the camera constantly focuses on their chest while they lean forward in cut scenes.
A comparison I always remember is Heavy Rain. When a female character takes a shower, the camera is in there with her, zooming around her in a voyeuristic fashion. When the male character takes a shower, the camera is static and on the other side of the room where it can't see as much, like a security camera. Guess which one they wanted the presumed male player to see as a 'sexy' scene and which one they wanted them to see as 'sterile functional routine'.
Yeah. You can even see it in how the characters are posed in their artwork. Link there has the camera looking up at him, as he stares determinedly off at something with an arrow nocked. He's not tense, but he's alert, an armed and confident adventurer. That... witch cat thing. The facial expression is one of passive, barely-there disinterest. The spine-cracking pose while sitting is only to increase the percentage of total space focused on her chest and thighs, which are also the section with the contrasting pattern of missing material designed to draw the eye.
This aspect of art direction, how the user's eye is guided by pose, camera, framing, gait, body language, expression and animation, is related to the character designs but often a missing context when a viewer looks at a dumb sexualised design and goes 'its not that bad', without seeing how the camera constantly focuses on their chest while they lean forward in cut scenes.
Also I don't understand the hate here. Call me old fashioned but I enjoy looking at half naked sexualized character models of the opposite gender from time to time. I don't enjoy or agree with the sexualization of underage girls or of women with unrealistic proportions. But Quiet looks perfectly fine to me.
The real outrage should be that there are not enough sexualized men in games. The other gender should have something to look at too. I'm sure they are less prim about it than most members here.
Interestingly there's very little of this kind of stuff in MGS1-3. Things started to get weird in MGS4 and then V. Then Death Stranding went back to having very little pervy stuff (Mostly naked Norman Reedus). Kojima can't seem to decide on the appropriate amount of titillation in his games, guy keeps flip-flopping.
Interestingly there's very little of this kind of stuff in MGS1-3. Things started to get weird in MGS4 and then V. Then Death Stranding went back to having very little pervy stuff (Mostly naked Norman Reedus). Kojima can't seem to decide on the appropriate amount of titillation in his games, guy keeps flip-flopping.
My understanding (and I could be completely wrong) was that with the earlier games, he had other people, either on his team or from Konami/etc., that kept him somewhat in check. With 4 and V, he had more leeway, and we know how that turned out. If this is truly the case, then I can only hope that the lack of it in Death Stranding is him maturing at least a little (Reedus punching the screen because you dared to look at his crotch notwithstanding).
Interestingly there's very little of this kind of stuff in MGS1-3. Things started to get weird in MGS4 and then V. Then Death Stranding went back to having very little pervy stuff (Mostly naked Norman Reedus). Kojima can't seem to decide on the appropriate amount of titillation in his games, guy keeps flip-flopping.
MGS1 has little tricks that let you get to see Meryl in her underwear, MGS2 has all those pin-up model posters in the locker, MGS3's camera looooves Eva. Always seemed pretty consistent across the series.
There was at least enough for someone to make a 7 minute long video about pervy moments in the series before MGS V even came out
MGS1 has little tricks that let you get to see Meryl in her underwear, MGS2 has all those pin-up model posters in the locker, MGS3's camera looooves Eva. Always seemed pretty consistent across the series.
Yeah, but that stuff was treated as mostly goofy easter eggs. And Eva is legitimately one instance of a sexualised that makes sense in the story, being a femme fatale spy and all. It got a lot more "in your face" with the Beauties and Quiet for whatever reason.
Quiet's design is fine, I just wish her personality matched the confidence that Shinkawa art gives off, would have been a great character.
Even then, it's good for a character's design to tell us things about them but not every character design follows that rule. Sometimes a needless amount of detail, a sense of style that isn't practical/doesn't get commented on or even sex appeal is just fun. If something succeeds at being appealing to look at then it can't really be considered a bad design to me.
Boring character design is worse than self indulgent design to me. Bland Armor that prioritizes detail over style, characterization or practicality and just turns into some bland mush. The same white guy with a buzzcut leading the charge etc.
Also I don't understand the hate here. Call me old fashioned but I enjoy looking at half naked sexualized character models of the opposite gender from time to time. I don't enjoy or agree with the sexualization of underage girls or of women with unrealistic proportions. But Quiet looks perfectly fine to me.
The real outrage should be that there are not enough sexualized men in games. The other gender should have something to look at too. I'm sure they are less prim about it than most members here.
For me it's not so much her design, which isn't that much worse than other sexualized female characters in games, it's her idle goddamn animations in the helicopter, where she presents like a cat in heat among other ridiculous nearly-pornographic poses.
Yeah and in this thread we constantly confuse different things like Quiet's design and questionnable ways of framing Quiet during the game. It's needless to say that the design can be good or justified but some scene in the game or some camera angle can be atrocious/offending.
If a design is bad (for various reasons) its has to be visible in every bit of character exposition.
Otherwise we need to acknowledge that the design isn't only in the character but in its animations, the cinematography, the framing etc. Even in the commentary and analysis the game provokes. From this point of view I genuinly like Quiet's design because it fits the character, the gameplay and the overall narrative of the game (exactly like 2b)
Quiet isn't great, but whether or not you think she or similar characters are the worst depends on if you hate weirdly horny design more than other negative factors
For example if you put a gun to my head and made me choose between the poorly justified bikini warrior babe and the scruffy middle aged brunette white dude with a gun, I'd probably choose the first category even if I don't exactly think it's good
Quiet isn't great, but whether or not you think she or similar characters are the worst depends on if you hate weirdly horny design more than other negative factors
For example if you put a gun to my head and made me choose between the poorly justified bikini warrior babe and the scruffy middle aged brunette white dude with a gun, I'd probably choose the first category even if I don't exactly think it's good
The difference is that 'weirdly horny design' aimed at straight guys is usually boring templated design that is also objectifying women in a background of constant objectification, whereas generic bloke with a buzz cut is just boring templated design. That both are terrible designs doesn't mean that one isn't also sexist tripe at the same time. That's what makes them considerably worse in terms of what they mean for wider representation. To say nothing of which one is a fantasy aimed at titillating guys, and which one is a power fantasy aimed at making them feel stronger. They really aren't comparable unless your only view of 'worse' is looking at them completely in isolation from wider trends in the industry and whether they contribute to really awful ones. Which almost all of the costume disasters in this thread do.
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