Is Kingdom Hearts the most willfully obtuse video game narrative?

NazoNazoXLR · May 19, 2020

I read American corporate superhero comics and am a fan of Type Moon's Fate multiverse and even I think KH is convoluted

Convoluted, and not complex. There are lots of different pieces that are all moving around, but there's not actually a lot of depth. Not that that's inherently a bad thing, but I do wonder if the dissonance that comes from the story is partly rooted in the fact that that it's a relatively straightforward story for kids, but they keep adding new pieces and layers that don't do much but clutter the toybox.

but at least it's not BlazBlue

Jerm · May 19, 2020

Mik317 said:
there is nothing to refute.

Its their opinion. It makes sense to me (again its told in a cluttered manner) and I can explain most of the fuckery. Again I have no clue about what happens in the mobile game but the moments in KH3 that were apparently referencing that...still worked despite that.

and again stop hiding being the almighty guise of "criticism" in which only negative impression seem to count. KH3 is not a perfect game. KH is not a perfect series BUT the constant pushing that everyone hates it is annoying as fuck to me. Not everyone bounced off of it like so many constantly claim. I am sure some did. Those who expected Kairi to do something probably are pissed. There are things to pick at but I take offense almost to those who basically wish for the series to be something completely different.

Please point to where anyone said everyone hates it. Many long time fans is not everyone. Many long time fans enjoyed it as well. It's not a personal attack on you. You're reading way too much into it, almost as if Kingdom Hearts is a part of your own identity.

If it makes sense to you, that's great, but to only say "well, it makes sense to me!!" in response to a relatively thorough post on things that do not make sense adds nothing. You're not fleshing out your opinion in the slightest or pointing out any merits of the series. You're really just saying "you're wrong because I didn't have that experience", which is exactly what you feel like you're being personally attacked for throughout the thread.

Mik317 · May 19, 2020

piratethingy said:
Man you guys just really love to straw man. Who said everyone hates KH? People are not bending on claiming the story is convoluted, so you put words in their mouths.

The Real Jeremy said:
Rereading this thread, I can't believe the number of people that take any criticism of this series personally enough to feel attacked. Many long time fans had issues with how everything panned out, whether you want to admit it or not. That's where the criticism and questioning comes from, it's nothing directed at you lol. Take that passion and put it towards refuting OP and other members' criticisms to explain why they're wrong.

This idea that the most vocal people speak for everyone is what I was calling out

but fuck it you guys win...this is a waste of everyones time. Minds are already made up

Deleted member 33533 · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
The reason the majority of people like Kingdom Hearts is the Disney appeal alongside heartfelt, adorable original characters. People watch the story for sea salt ice-cream and spending the last days of summer hanging out with their friends. But then you've got all this obtuse, nigh-incomprehensible nonsense thrown in constantly on-top that distracts from the actual appeal of the series. I don't get it, why does Nomura keep adding complexity that no one sane wants? You could even somehow excuse it if it was a tightly written, intricate narrative such that the complexity makes sense, like a rulebook, that you could have fun predicting shit. But its not, nothing is ever really followed and will be undone for the sake of emotion. Its LOST level of writing except far worse. You can theory-craft all you like, but it doesn't make a lick of difference when Nomura laughs in your face and just trolls the entire narrative with some new shit that gets retconned in.

A lot of people do like the off the wall craziness though. There are a bunch of KH fans who don't give a shit about the Disney parts. There are fans who just like the gameplay. It doesn't seem like you have a grasp of why people like KH. You think you do but you don't.

TradedHats · May 19, 2020

This narrative surrounding KH and its complexity is so tired. I've only just played the games starting in 2018 and can't imagine how those who have been in the fanbase longer have had to keep hearing what has essentially become a meme for the past decade. It's on the same level of irritation as people complaining that KH3 is confusing after only playing 2 nearly 14 years earlier and then skipping all of the other games.

PhoenixSFT · May 19, 2020

It's obtuse to the point that even the fun gameplay and Disney worlds can't make up for it. I shouldn't have to play the spinoffs (which seem more like core games) on every platform available to get the story in the main entries. They should be nice bonus info, not required reading.

Wispmetas · May 19, 2020

The Real Jeremy said:
Please point to where anyone said everyone hates it. Many long time fans is not everyone. Many long time fans enjoyed it as well. It's not a personal attack on you. You're reading way too much into it, almost as if Kingdom Hearts is a part of your own identity.

If it makes sense to you, that's great, but to only say "well, it makes sense to me!!" in response to a relatively thorough post on things that do not make sense adds nothing. You're not fleshing out your opinion in the slightest or pointing out any merits of the series. You're really just saying "you're wrong because I didn't have that experience", which is exactly what you feel like you're being personally attacked for throughout the thread.

Why should we engage the thread that way, when the OP goes the extra mile to basically say "I don't CARE that you can explain these plot points." or "You're not sane if you enjoy this."?

Also why is the experience of someone that finds the story confusing more valuable than the experience of someone who doesnt? You do know every single question OP asks has an explanation that is seen in game right? Not just theories.

Now, the main thesis of the OP is "KH is overly confusing for a series that "should" be simple. Why does Nomura get away with it?"
And that in itself is flawed, because:

1st of all, a game should be the way its director wants it to be. KH since the beginning had these confusing characteristics. And that in a way defines it. So KH is exactly the way it should be, and is a great success for SE.

2nd, at least some part of the fandom (I'm assuming this looking at the popularity of the series as a whole troughout its history) likes this specific part of the series, I for one do, and sorry if I don't like OP calling me not sane for doing so. As I Said before, it's part of its identity and its why we can have fun stuff like a fucking Noctis impersonator fighting on a shibuya Skyscraper with sora. ON A DISNEY GAME. I love this shit, and its what keeps me coming back. I can't wait to see what comes next.

So yeah, I like it. And i did not have the experience OP had. And I hope it does not change in the future.

Deleted member 62078 · May 19, 2020

Conciliator said:
when a plot is needlessly convoluted, that means it's smart and good

Don't think I don't see through your disguise, Hideo.

Swift_Gamer · May 19, 2020

How many shitting kh threads are going to be made about the same subjects?

The Last One · May 19, 2020

Swift_Gamer said:
How many shitting kh threads are going to be made about the same subjects?

At least this one called anyone who likes the craziness of the story "insane". So now we're getting thread where people can just needlessly offend the fans and get away with it =)

Good times.

Swift_Gamer · May 19, 2020

Whatislove said:
People LOVE to hate on KH. I'll never understand why people insist that something they don't enjoy must be bad.

So they don't think they're missing out. That's it. But to be honest, those people hate the game yet play all them. There's a name for that.

Swift_Gamer · May 19, 2020

The Last One said:
At least this one called anyone who likes the craziness of the story "insane". So now we're getting thread where people can just needlessly offend the fans and get away with it =)

Good times.

I honestly can just think that people that have a hard time understanding KH have a really interpretation and attention problem... The story is extremely easy to follow.

Demon Lizardman · May 19, 2020

I used to like the story in KH until they added all the time travel stuff, since then I've been more into the gameplay. It's like FF7, fans see the game series as a reflection of themselves and are incredibly insecure about any criticism that anyone makes toward it. They treat it as a criticism of their taste and their own self which really makes it sad. It's like most fandoms actually, even movie ones. Thing is, I used to be like this in my teen years but I grew up and realized the things I love dearly have problems as well and respected other people's opinions. Let people like what they like and let people dislike what they dislike, don't call them out for it, we're here to have a discussion, not to fling shit everywhere.

Nothing is perfect, but it's also fine to like things that are trash. Kingdom Hearts story, in my opinion, is pretty fucking bad and is now more about fanservice and self indulgent wankery then actual compelling, well thought out narratives.

Nall · May 19, 2020

Swift_Gamer said:
How many shitting kh threads are going to be made about the same subjects?

Seriously, It's weird. Like I'm not a fan of the Souls series. I've played some of the games, determined that I didn't find them fun , so I shelved them and moved on with my life. I don't make threads about how bored I was. I understand that KH is weird and divisive, but these threads are so tiring.

Swift_Gamer · May 19, 2020

Demon Lizardman said:
I used to like the story in KH until they added all the time travel stuff, since then I've been more into the gameplay. It's like FF7, fans see the game series as a reflection of themselves and are incredibly insecure about any criticism that anyone makes toward it. They treat it as a criticism of their taste and their own self which really makes it sad. It's like most fandoms actually, even movie ones. Thing is, I used to be like this in my teen years but I grew up and realized the things I love dearly have problems as well and respected other people's opinions. Let people like what they like and let people dislike what they dislike, don't call them out for it, we're here to have a discussion, not to fling shit everywhere.

Nothing is perfect, but it's also fine to like things that are trash. Kingdom Hearts story, in my opinion, is pretty fucking bad and is now more about fanservice and self indulgent wankery then actual compelling, well thought out narratives.

Nah, you're wrong. It's that every time I open Era, there's a shitting KH thread and the arguments are all the same ad nauseum. It's tiresome, it's boring, it's annoying, it's getting old.

BossAttack · May 19, 2020

SuperiorTrashTalk said:
A lot of people do like the off the wall craziness though. There are a bunch of KH fans who don't give a shit about the Disney parts. There are fans who just like the gameplay. It doesn't seem like you have a grasp of why people like KH. You think you do but you don't.

Um, I still like KH, I think. I don't care about the Disney parts. I play and stay interested for this:

Demon Lizardman · May 19, 2020

Swift_Gamer said:
Nah, you're wrong. It's that every time I open Era, there's a shitting KH thread and the arguments are all the same ad nauseum. It's tiresome, it's boring, it's annoying, it's getting old.

There's a different between criticizing a game and criticizing people who like said thing, I agree that OP maybe should've not said that people who like it are no sane, but he and others are allowed to have a thread what he doesn't like about it. You and others are not gatekeepers from others not liking it, same goes with vice versa.

EDIT: Also, if this kind of thread keeps popping up, then maybe accept that there are others who just don't enjoy what you enjoy and that there are a lot of people who have problems with this storytelling. If you want, you are free to make a thread about your feelings on the game.

scare_crow · May 19, 2020

The Last One said:
Oh year, suuuure. Thats what people are meaning.

I realize that some people are being dumb here, but most are not.

Also, there are going to be people who think anything is stupid. Anything and everything. It does suck, but... who cares? Take that glorious high road and just ignore it.

Swift_Gamer · May 19, 2020

Demon Lizardman said:
There's a different between criticizing a game and criticizing people who like said thing, I agree that OP maybe should've not said that people who like it are no sane, but he and others are allowed to have a thread what he doesn't like about it. You and others are not gatekeepers from others not liking it, same goes with vice versa.

You're still not getting. The problem is not the criticism itself. It's the frequency of it and the use of the same arguments:
Every single week there's a new thread shitting on the game with the same users using the same arguments to shit on the game.
That's the problem.
We are going to call these people out.

The Last One · May 19, 2020

scare_crow said:
I realize that some people are being dumb here, but most are not.

Also, there are going to be people who think anything is stupid. Anything and everything. It does suck, but... who cares? Take that glorious high road and just ignore it.

Sure, let's just let some people be offensive.

This forum has been amazing lately lol

Mik317 · May 19, 2020

Demon Lizardman said:
I used to like the story in KH until they added all the time travel stuff, since then I've been more into the gameplay. It's like FF7, fans see the game series as a reflection of themselves and are incredibly insecure about any criticism that anyone makes toward it. They treat it as a criticism of their taste and their own self which really makes it sad. It's like most fandoms actually, even movie ones. Thing is, I used to be like this in my teen years but I grew up and realized the things I love dearly have problems as well and respected other people's opinions. Let people like what they like and let people dislike what they dislike, don't call them out for it, we're here to have a discussion, not to fling shit everywhere.

Nothing is perfect, but it's also fine to like things that are trash. Kingdom Hearts story, in my opinion, is pretty fucking bad and is now more about fanservice and self indulgent wankery then actual compelling, well thought out narratives.

Maybe its just me but being told that something I like it comparable to trash or shit is not ok lol. KH is a silly nonsense at times but I will never call it or anything I enjoy trash. I know thats not your intention but please understand "this thing is trash" does not read as "I don't like certain aspects of it lol" but more so "You like eating trash lol". Words are weird lol.

So yeah people tend to get defensive when something they enjoy is compared to fucking feces. Whodathunk it? Its not about being a reflection of oneself or any of that shit. I don't identify as a gamer or a geek or whatever but if someone was to say many games are such trash while knowing I like to play games....Its hard to go "well thats your opinion" because it infers that I indulge in something that is trash. Idk maybe I am not explaining it too well but I simply find people's word choices to be poor and it leads to feeling inflammatory even when its not I guess. There are tons of series that I can no longer go into threads about because I know it will be full of people who fell off and yet still want everyone to know they hate the thing...I just don't get why people put so much effort into rehashing the same points, yknow? It ends up that the only time one can talk about the not bad things is in the OT and the initial reveal threads....which is lame IMO. So much space is wasted on tons and tons of threads about how I hate this thing in particular don't you agree? But people are so depth with it they use the veil of criticism to ward off anyone who doesn't agree as defensive fanboys who don't know any better.

Its just draining as fuck lol. I am only engaging now due to boredom but still...its gets rough to talk about games anywhere without people constantly reminding you of their distaste and how everything should change for them....when I know that wouldn't fly with other games/things. Imagine this going on with some less weeby games? I think the TLOU2 shit is blown out of proportion and I don't even give a fuck about that game but it is rightfully protected when people driveby post it (not saying people are doing that here...this is a fair topic btw...just saying I don't agree tho).

oh well...to each their own I guess

PhoenixSFT · May 19, 2020

Swift_Gamer said:
I honestly can just think that people that have a hard time understanding KH have a really interpretation and attention problem... The story is extremely easy to follow.

Okay so what's the story?

MrConbon210 · May 19, 2020

scare_crow said:
I think you need to separate yourself from the game a bit. If someone says, "that game sucks" it doesn't mean they're saying "you suck."

OP says that the story is bullshit and that the story drags down the game. So when I say that I enjoy the story I get a, "that's cool. The story is still bad" essentially invalidating that myself and other people do enjoy the story.

BossAttack · May 19, 2020

MrConbon210 said:
OP says that the story is bullshit and that the story drags down the game. So when I say that I enjoy the story I get a, "that's cool. The story is still bad" essentially invalidating that myself and other people do enjoy the story.

Damn, I said that. Where?

I never said that take your straw-man elsewhere.

MrConbon210 · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
Damn, I said that. Where?

I never said that take your straw-man elsewhere.

"Please stop, I don't want to hear your long-winded explanation about how this replica allowed Roxas to come back and whatnot, its bullshit and we both know it."

"But then you've got all this obtuse, nigh-incomprehensible nonsense thrown in constantly on-top that distracts from the actual appeal of the series."

Maximus · May 19, 2020

MrConbon210 said:
As many users have pointed out, this is the shit that is annoying and smug. Why can't a person enjoy something without being looked down upon for it?

I wasn't looking down on you or saying you can't enjoy it. Just because you like something, doesn't mean that everyone else should agree.

Maximus · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
obtuse
difficult to comprehend
:
not clear or precise in thought or expression

I almost thought I fucked up, but I didn't. Whew.

I just went through the entire thread and so far this is the only post that comes close to "insulting" fans:

No one has insulted the fandom. Criticizing the overtly convoluted story is not an attack nor is stating that the overall story is not well written.

I added clarification to that post. I wasn't intending to insult anyone, just in the past I've had people tell me the story does make sense and don't want to understand how it's objectively not good. I don't want anyone to feel attacked, nor was I attacking anyone.

Lunar Wolf · May 19, 2020

Blent said:
The thing about Kingdom Hearts is that it's all the Disney stuff, yet they insisted on all this ridiculous story

What is even the fucking point of paying all that money to have Disney stuff and making up all that Heartless bollocks when that could've been done in its own game?

Unfathomable waste

$$$$$

Mik317 · May 19, 2020

Maximus said:
I wasn't looking down on you or saying you can't enjoy it. Just because you like something, doesn't mean that everyone else should agree.

they goes both ways no?

yet it damn sure doesn't feel that way.

Like even if someone were to explain in detail the story , people will still go "nah thats dumb and doesn't make sense"...so really what is the point of the thread beyond "Kingdom Hearts is dumb" which in turns means you want everyone to agree with you because it didn't hit for you.

Again I keep bringing it up. I did not enjoy Horizon Zero Dawn. I could make a thread right now in the same vein as this one. I hated the controls and combat. And if someone was to say well this is how or why they are the way they are, I could go "well thats cool but it still sucks". What would the response be then? I am 100% sure someone would not be happy with that and I'd be an asshole for creating a thread and not wanting any real discussion beyond "yeah it sure does suck". Again I am not saying KH is perfect and has no flaws, I just don't agree with the idea that it is a mess that needs to be altered, is all. Being called a liar or insane because of that is what I am talking about. You can dislike KH all you want really. Yeah some of the dialogue in KH3 was fucking awful lol. So I get it. I really do. I just cannot stand for this weird better than aura people constantly use when someone does not agree with them that something is trash. i am again not saying you have to like it but maybe don't infer (again maybe not intentional) that those who do are lesser?

Liking or not liking a game should not be a positive character trait.

Mik317 · May 19, 2020

There is no such thing as an objectively bad story imo.

all of that shit is subjective. Twilight sure seems dumb from what little I know of it but if someone found it enjoyable (maybe inspite of its flaws?) then I wouldn't consider it objectively bad (its message potentially being problematic withstanding).

This is where you get the push back. I think Nomura does write by the skin of his pants in a haphazard gotta make cool shit way but I think that is just as valid of a style as ND super seiral method. I avoided GOT because I don't enjoy grim dark everyone dies storytelling...this does not mean it is objectively bad either...it just means I don't like it. To state that your opinion is objective is asinine and is exactly why people like me come off as defensive as fuck because no it doesn't work that way. People have the nerve to say we are trying to make it so everyone agrees with us when the opposite is happening.

wtf

BossAttack · May 19, 2020

MrConbon210 said:
"Please stop, I don't want to hear your long-winded explanation about how this replica allowed Roxas to come back and whatnot, its bullshit and we both know it."

"But then you've got all this obtuse, nigh-incomprehensible nonsense thrown in constantly on-top that distracts from the actual appeal of the series."

Yes?

The contrived convoluted stuff is bullshit which takes away from the appeal of the series, the character STORIES. Kingdom Hearts is good when its just childhood characters engaging in the power of friendship, this core good part is then obfuscated by sheer utter nonsense that only serves to distract and pull emotion from the actual good parts of the story, the characters.

Mik317 said:
There is no such thing as an objectively bad story imo.

You're basically getting into the idea that all art is subjective which is just an offshoot of the idea that objective reality does not exist. Listen, we have ratings for a reason. Shit can be classified as either good or bad based on the general consensus, especially the consensus of experts in a field such as literature or film. KH by that metric is an objectively poorly told story, that doesn't mean it can't be liked.

MrConbon210 · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
Yes?

The contrived convoluted stuff is bullshit which takes away from the appeal of the series, the character STORIES. Kingdom Hearts is good when its just childhood characters engaging in the power of friendship, this core good part is then obfuscated by sheer utter nonsense that only serves to distract and pull emotion from the actual good parts of the story, the characters.

The appeal is different for each person. It's bullshit for you but not for others. For you, the appeal are the charecter's and their stories. Others skip every cutscene and only plays for the gameplay. Or me who enjoys the complexity and outlandishness of the narrative.

Wispmetas · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
Yes?

The contrived convoluted stuff is bullshit which takes away from the appeal of the series, the character STORIES. Kingdom Hearts is good when its just childhood characters engaging in the power of friendship, this core good part is then obfuscated by sheer utter nonsense that only serves to distract and pull emotion from the actual good parts of the story, the characters.

The character stories are heavily tied to that bullshit you talk about.

How would you have roxas or xion without them? You know, 2 fan favorite characters

Let me use the Roxas example, his whole story and struggle is heavily tied to being a nobody. His story just would not work if that stupid of a term did not exist. Same goes for Xion and her whole existential debacle being something created out of sora's memories. Same for Namibe, Terra, Aqua, Ventus. Everyone's story is heavily tied to something you complained about on the OP.

These good parts you talk about simply would not work if you erase everything that make KH, well KH!

BossAttack · May 19, 2020

Wispmetas said:
The character stories are heavily tied to that bullshit you talk about.

How would you have roxas or xion without them? You know, 2 fan favorite characters

Let me use the Roxas example, his whole story and struggle is heavily tied to being a nobody. His story just would not work if that stupid of a term did not exist. Same goes for Xion and her whole existential debacle being something created out of sora's memories. Same for Namibe, Terra, Aqua, Ventus. Everyone's story is heavily tied to something you complained about on the OP.

These good parts you talk about simply would not work if you erase everything that make KH, well KH!

As I stated, KH2 is as complicated as the series should have gotten. Introducing time travel hearts, Keyblade Masters that existed just 8 years before KH1, Dream Worlds, Half-Xenahorts, and all other stuff just made the series and characters worse.

Roxas and Namine should have never come back to life.

Chivalry · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
. I just don't understand why Nomura keeps adding complexities upon complexities (many of which should have earth-shattering philosophical questions that are just waived over) to what should be a simple and clean story about friendship, adolescence, and growing up

Nomura is a Chuunibyou.

Deleted member 33533 · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
Um, I still like KH, I think. I don't care about the Disney parts. I play and stay interested for this:

My point is that people like KH for many different reasons including the story and all the heartless/nobody/hearts stuff. I just think it's weird to say "KH fans like this, not this". You're oddly defining what KH fans like about the series based on your own feelings.

Niosai · May 19, 2020

Brawly Likes to Brawl said:
MGS catches shit for its story all the time

I don't disagree, but it's not discussed or complained about nearly as often.

Mik317 · May 19, 2020

Dragon's Dogma sits at a 78 on Metacritic. RDR2 sits much higher.

I enjoyed the former more than the latter (i liked the latter too). But because the latter's rating is higher it is objectively better?

I don't get this mentality at all. Not everyone is going to enjoy the same things about the same products. KH is a great example. I don't get it but many enjoy it JUST for the gameplay. That personally sounds like a miserable experience but still. The issue with changing things to appeal to one group means you alienate another...and thats when you create this friction. If the next KH game is taken out of Nomura's hand is just a safe reboot with more emphasis on Disney and basic "understandable" plot. I'd be let down big time because that's not why I care about the series. I'd probably still check it out and maybe even enjoy it but thats not why I play KH yknow? I imagine many others would take to it a lot worse than I. I mean look at DmC. I thought it was fine and the DE fixes many of the gameplay issues I had.... but it still alienated the core base in chase of appealing to others to not great results. DMC5 came through and crushed the buildings.

The time to alter what KH is has loooong past. You have had a decade to realize that it is not for you and to move on. And if that kills the franchise then so be it. This idea that everything has to be a certain way makes for a boring as fuck industry IMO and its why we have so many open world games with rpg elements and crafting and loot and less balls to the wall insane concepts imo. I doubt this forum is that powerful but still i hate to this suppression of different or insane storytelling because some don't like it is all.

Again you can like or dislike whatever just stop acting like whatever you say is the law. This goes both ways and If I came off like that my bad

Deleted member 13798 · May 19, 2020

Purposefully obtuse is debatable but I would certainly say that it and MGS are both what I would call celebrations of excess in storytelling.

I think that's what makes game series like that so long lasting and memorable though. There's been many games with very streamlined and basic storytelling that are completely forgettable even if they're good. Sometimes doing something dramatic pays off, even if it's also kind of annoying.

Mik317 · May 19, 2020

also KH is a long running connected franchise

so yeah there are a lot of moving parts. MGS is the same. Hell people were losing their shit over the Zelda timeline.

Other long running series don't have this problem because they have less entries, story matters less, or they aren't connected. KH1 was the most ground by virtue of being the first one (I'd argue against that because I still don't know what Kingdom Hearts is and it took until like 2 games later to figure out who the cloaked guy was). Again by virtue of how long Nomura was on Versus, delaying KH3 forever and filling in the blanks with spinoffs is what truly muddied the water but even that is overstated outside of DDD (never add time travel brehs) as most of those could be summed up in a quick paragraph imo. Most of the confusion comes from a lot of backstory being stretched into their own games on various systems over the span of a loooong time imo. AGain not the best way to do things but it kept the fanbase semi satiated and allowed them to theorize on shit; many of which came true which is hell of a lot better than just having nothing for all those years IMO.

but thats just me I guess

King Kingo · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
As I stated, KH2 is as complicated as the series should have gotten. Introducing time travel hearts, Keyblade Masters that existed just 8 years before KH1, Dream Worlds, Half-Xenahorts, and all other stuff just made the series and characters worse.

Roxas and Namine should have never come back to life.

Yeah, time travel was a breaking point for me, but, it wasn't so detrimental to the point where I actively gave up on the series because I'm far too invested in the cast of original characters at this point to really care about their story devices. I just want to see the gang further develop.

And Nomura's adamance to keep Kingdom Hearts characters alive is for one reason only, marketing. A permanently dead character just doesn't move affiliated merchandise and products anywhere as well as a character that's still alive and has potential for further storytelling opportunities.

scare_crow · May 19, 2020

The Last One said:
Sure, let's just let some people be offensive.

This forum has been amazing lately lol

There are different levels of "offensive." Knocking Kingdom Hearts or even its fans is pretty low on the scale. It is not worth engaging in or getting defensive about. It's just not.

MrConbon210 said:
OP says that the story is bullshit and that the story drags down the game. So when I say that I enjoy the story I get a, "that's cool. The story is still bad" essentially invalidating that myself and other people do enjoy the story.

Sorry folks, I think you're getting way too wrapped up in a product here. That is not invalidating you as a person. Personal attacks are not called for, I'm in agreement with you both on that. But if someone says, "The KH story suuuuuucks" that is allowed. It's not a personal attack.

ILikeFeet · May 19, 2020

Plum said:
One thing that often gets left out of these discussions is the fact that Kingdom Hearts is, you know, a Disney game. Like it's honestly baffling to me that the only modern-day big-budget representation of multiple Disney franchises in gaming is of... this. If some kid wants to adventure with Elsa or have fun with Buzz and Woody then they've got to deal with all this convoluted action-RPG 'made for 30+ year old fans' anime nonsense.

I... I just don't get it. Gaming is sometimes just so ridiculous to me.

there was Disney Infinity

yea...

nintendoman58 · May 19, 2020

BossAttack said:
The reason the majority of people like Kingdom Hearts is the Disney appeal alongside heartfelt, adorable original characters. People watch the story for sea salt ice-cream and spending the last days of summer hanging out with their friends. But then you've got all this obtuse, nigh-incomprehensible nonsense thrown in constantly on-top that distracts from the actual appeal of the series. I don't get it, why does Nomura keep adding complexity that no one sane wants?

Because there wouldn't be a game otherwise?

Canucked · May 19, 2020

KH is fun but the OP nailed the description on the story 100%

Nothing says "Willfilly Obtuse" like naming two mysterious characters Ansem, but just coincidentally.

gfbandito · May 19, 2020

Guys, the KH story is complete unadulterated crazy anime bullshit, and the fact that you have to constantly explain that "no it's actually not that complicated, you just gotta play this gameboy advance game, to know what happened between these two ps2 games, then this DS game over here which takes place during part of the gameboy advance game, and this other DS game which is a port of a japanese mobile game we never got, and also this other japanese mobile game we never got and watch this e3 trailer, oh and you're gonna need to play the 3DS game too, and NOW you can understand the plot of the PS4 game" just proves it.

But that's ok! Just admit it! Even the individual components of the stories have their own complications. Time travel, norts, ai programs, the humongous cast being a clone of like 3 fucking people + Donald and Goofy are there, and now we're getting alternate dimensions, and dude's sneaking in his precious ff versus whatever.

Like, I always thought it was super obvious the writing process for these games was "what crazy shit can I have this trio of doofuses get up to, also I really like hooded leather coats" and that's all I needed out of it.

For fucks sake, they had to add dlc to show what happened off screen in the latest game. The whole series has been a couple main games with a whole lotta shit that happened, well, on a different screen. Multiple different screens.

MGS doesn't have this problem cause MGS fans own the fact that they're in it for the crazy.

But for some reason, with Kingdom Hearts it's 4D chess 2smart4u.

sonicmj1 · May 19, 2020

No one has tried to explain Blazblue yet and I want to know more.

All I remember from Calamity Trigger is that the game's world seemed to be in a dense nest of time loops, which I think meant that at least two pairs of characters are the same person at different points in time?

I have no idea how things developed.

Lunar Wolf · May 19, 2020

Canucked said:
KH is fun but the OP nailed the description on the story 100%

Nothing says "Willfilly Obtuse" like naming two mysterious characters Ansem, but just coincidentally.

Well that's not true. One just stole the others' identity.

DatManOvaDer · May 19, 2020

gfbandito said:
Guys, the KH story is complete unadulterated crazy anime bullshit, and the fact that you have to constantly explain that "no it's actually not that complicated, you just gotta play this gameboy advance game, to know what happened between these two ps2 games, then this DS game over here which takes place during part of the gameboy advance game, and this other DS game which is a port of a japanese mobile game we never got, and also this other japanese mobile game we never got and watch this e3 trailer, oh and you're gonna need to play the 3DS game too, and NOW you can understand the plot of the PS4 game" just proves it.

But that's ok! Just admit it! Even the individual components of the stories have their own complications. Time travel, norts, ai programs, the humongous cast being a clone of like 3 fucking people + Donald and Goofy are there, and now we're getting alternate dimensions, and dude's sneaking in his precious ff versus whatever.

Like, I always thought it was super obvious the writing process for these games was "what crazy shit can I have this trio of doofuses get up to, also I really like hooded leather coats" and that's all I needed out of it.

For fucks sake, they had to add dlc to show what happened off screen in the latest game. The whole series has been a couple main games with a whole lotta shit that happened, well, on a different screen. Multiple different screens.

MGS doesn't have this problem cause MGS fans own the fact that they're in it for the crazy.

But for some reason, with Kingdom Hearts it's 4D chess 2smart4u.

wow u actually gotta play all the games in a connected story to understand the story?
crazy

Deepwater · May 19, 2020

I think if you find it confusing because you refuse to play the games across the wide variety of platforms, then that's fair and your prerogative. But I'm not sure if that makes it intrinsically obtuse. If you watch season one of a show and skip to season three, then of course the plot will be "obtuse".

KH is definitely anime bullshit, but I think people like to rag on the story because the whole story wasnt conveniently available to their platforms of choice. You can't play through, (and pay attention to) KH1, COM, 2, BBS, DDD, and not understand where the plot is in 3. If you don't , you just kind of played the other games on auto pilot without regard for the narrative. Which again, is your prerogative. But your failure to pay attention does not make the story obtuse.

Is Kingdom Hearts the most willfully obtuse video game narrative?

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