Is Kingdom Hearts the most willfully obtuse video game narrative?
- Thread starter BossAttack
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Kingdom Hearts after KH1 is what Square does in literally all the direct sequels to their games. Final Fantasy IV, for instance, is very similar to KH1 in how it starts with a relatively simple narrative and clear bad guy, then goes off the rails by the end when it introduces some nonsensical moon wizard who is somehow the real villain behind everything. Final Fantasy IV: The After Years then goes full in on the moon wizard nonsense and convoluted lore, just like KH2 did with Ansem/Not-Ansem and the nobodies and data world. It's just not nearly as noticeable with Square's other games as it is with Kingdom Hearts since stuff like direct Final Fantasy sequels tend to be only one or two games long and they don't get anywhere near as much attention as the original games did.
With that in mind, I firmly believe that Square is at their best when they're creating new content and at their worst when revisiting their old properties.
With that in mind, I firmly believe that Square is at their best when they're creating new content and at their worst when revisiting their old properties.
I keep reading about people being attacked for liking KH but all I see is some people saying the story is dumb and some people saying they like it?
OP
OP
Weird persecution complex also good ol' not reading.
Note how I didn't say I disliked the characters but that the nonsensical story hinders the core appeal of KH. Then you got people coming in like I killed their dogs, falsely claiming I hate the series and if everyone could just shut up and let them like what they like. I still don't remember ever telling anyone that can't like the game or its nonsense story.
I will say that the overarching plot does make some kind of sense up until DDD, then it all goes a billion percent off the rails.
And yes he whole thing is just Nomura thinking of cool scenes and then retconning everything that gets in the way of them happening.
And yes he whole thing is just Nomura thinking of cool scenes and then retconning everything that gets in the way of them happening.
I think Metal Gear Solid is close if you actually count V and give full credence to all of the dumb shit squirreled away within it, but otherwise it's not even in the same ballpark.
It's basically the prequel trilogy method of writing. Gotta get to the podrace. Gotta get to the Obi-wan/Anakin lightsaber battle, etc. Clearly there was something in the air in the early 2000s.
I'm hoping that now that the "Xehanort Arc" is over Nomura is going to downsize a bit on the stage of the narrative but severely cutting down on OCs that clones/copies/different versions of another character. It makes the casts bloated and it's completely played the fuck out. Write some new characters that interesting for reasons other than being an aspect of someone else.
And the OP has called people who don't agree with him liars.
I am tired of people calling things they don't like shit made by hack frauds and then go hide behind "oh its just criticism bro...wow what a persecution complex".
You can not like KH. I think its memed out but yeah the story can be obtuse at times (I still say it simply has too many moving parts that seem important but really isn't) but that doesn't mean the series should warp and change to appeal to you. Neither way is outright correct...but so many constantly act like it. I hated Horizon Zero Dawn. Shit was boring as fuck coming off of Nier and BOTW. That doesn't mean I think the game is shit and that the devs suck and I am pretty sure if I did post that, I'd be banned for trolling lol. I also don't think the next game should alter itsself to appeal to me.
I am defensive because there aren't many KHs out there anymore...especially of the budget they get behind it. So when every single KH thread on this place is constantly full of people going "man I fucking hate this series , it should change because of that" annoys me to no end. I know this place is more of a echo chamber of the loudest voices who in the end have no impact but still it sucks that every thread for KH devolves into the same thing.
like is it really new ground that Kingdom Hearts story sure is wacky lolololol. Everyone is Sora hurrr durr hurrr. Like we get it.
At this point you're just arguing that you need to know the story of preceding games to fully "get" the sequel. I understand that frame of mind about self-contained experiences but in a 15+ year series (and conclusion of its entire arc no less) I'm not really sure that should apply so heavily. Even for UX revelations it's just something for people who are aware of those events to appreciate. You don't need to get 100% of everything all of the time. Someone who doesn't know much about UX can still understand the basic idea of what is being conveyed. Hell, a lot of the more obscure plot-points in the series get reiterated when they become more relevant.
In regards to the actual question in the thread, there are plenty of weird games with more obtuse narratives but KH is generally a more mainstream example for people to target, further puffed up through memes. The actual gist of the overall story is pretty straightforward, but then obviously the finer details get more complicated and you get the various mysteries which keep the more hardcore fanbase engaged between the games. Yet I will say that I feel some people tend to take certain plotpoints, which in fairness are convoluted and can be confusing, but then wrap it up in some weird false extra logic to justify KH's status as omega confusing.
If you're interested in knowing basically while she was lost from everyone's memory the Org still had her "specs" in Vexen's data which they stumbled upon so they decided to make what was essentially a factory-reset Xion. At the big clash Xion's heart and memories within Sora leaked back into the new body. KH isn't really that dark of a series and the return of all the characters was extremely telegraphed by the narrative for a long time. You either like the positive spirit or you don't at that point tbh.
op literally called people who disagree with him not sane lol
I really wish they chose to do a soft reboot after 3. I don't know what more they can do with Sora and the gang. All their story arcs are over. The ice cream trio are reunited and so are the wayfarer trio. Let them all ride off into the sunset. How many more times can Riku fight his inner darkness? Is he going to be in his 60s and still dealing with his teenage angst? Kairi is beyond repair at this point. Sora is... Sora. He's enjoyable but Im not clamoring for another long arc with him at the center of it. I want a new cast. New original locations. I wouldn't mind a Force Awakens style reboot that distilled why people fell in love with the series in the first place.
I genuinely wonder if the fan base at this point is heavily skewed older and made up mostly of people who grew up with the series. Feel like the series could be so much bigger but is marred by how big of a commitment it is to understand everything.
I genuinely wonder if the fan base at this point is heavily skewed older and made up mostly of people who grew up with the series. Feel like the series could be so much bigger but is marred by how big of a commitment it is to understand everything.
KH3's secret ending and Re:Mind does all but outright scream that going forward we're starting off a new plot.
OP
OP
Yes, to people saying the story is not convoluted. You can like the story all you like, but it is objectively convuluted.
+1 to this. All the best parts in three were the Pixar worlds since Pixar wasn't anywhere near as strict with Normura's team as Disney was.
Eh... I'm pretty sure Sora and Riku are still heavily involved in matters going forward. It's going to center around the Black Box, which ties into the hefty lore of the mobile game. Yes, they are hinting at one new character but it's carrying tons of baggage from the Xehanort saga. Everything is intrinsically tied to the damn Foretellers.
This is true, but their a lot of opportunity to cut the fat. As you said, the other trios storylines are tied up. What I'm worried about is that Nomura won't feel at home in the new story arc without going nuts on introducing new clones again.
My opinion is that the end result of having visually-identical-but-disparate characters, characters who share names (or adopt other names), having the same character exist in two places at once with different personalities thanks to time travel, all that convoluted stuff, it's all the result of writing intrigue for intrigue's sake and rarely having any place meaningful in mind to eventually land with it when it comes to resolving them.
It provides several servings of speculation per entry though, which can be communally enjoyable.
It provides several servings of speculation per entry though, which can be communally enjoyable.
Actually, it is apparently Nomura who requests that the stories of the Disney worlds be reenactments of the movies with Sora and co thrown in. Pixar, meanwhile, requested that the worlds based on their movies use a new story.
I have a fondness for Kingdom Hearts purely because it's a perfect case study as to why it is better for each new FF to be it's own unique narrative.
It's a game of its time. It's actually impressive how Nomura has managed to continue to rope fans game after game, horrible narrative after horrible narrative, almost purely based on the promise of narrative payoff for the next game.
It's a game of its time. It's actually impressive how Nomura has managed to continue to rope fans game after game, horrible narrative after horrible narrative, almost purely based on the promise of narrative payoff for the next game.
except all of the things did get wrapped up in KH3....so that narrative payoff happened.
also why is it that people cannot fathom that maybe just maybe not everyone finds the narrative horrible? This is the shit I am talking about. Maybe it was not intended but there is this weird constant smug aura around peoples posts that basicaly goes "anyone who enjoys this is being misled or tricked into liking it...because I don't".
I am going to have a mental fucking breakdown lol.... I don't get why people feel the need to subliminally diss people for liking things they don't. Why does everything you don't like have to be trash or shit and the fanbase sheep who can't think for themselves....when the reality is that the product did not hit for you for whatever reason and thats that. I don't get ERA's idea of criticism being this constant stream of viritrol to be the wave. It is legit the worst part of this forum. Not saying you have to like everything and never dislike things. I shit on Spiderman 3 and Wolverine Origin a ton wih friends for example. I fucking hate those films lol...BUT I am not going to say people who like it are liars or not sane or just blinded by "nostalgia" or are too stupid to know any better...which is yes exactly what some of yall are doing (again maybe not on purpose) when you call things shit (this is not a good substitution for "things I don;t like" because no one likes being told the thing you like is trash or shit because that infers that you enjoy shit...and outside of certain...uh fetishes..no one likes shitty things (well not unironically)).
but whatever...its just me yelling into the void at this point. Gotta add KH to the many franchises I will never talk about on this forum I guess....because "criticism, bro".
They all have the code name Snake but they're all separate entities with clear character arcs. It's Big Boss, his 3 clone children and the man Big Boss set up to take the heat off him. There's a lot of timeline retcons in metal gear but the story in the end all made sense.
Theres a trend I notice where people say the story is extremely confusing and hard to follow but then they follow it up with them saying they purposely skipped entries
pretty interesting
pretty interesting
I understand why you feel this way, and I am sorry for coming off, and actually just straight up being, an asshole. But I must add, this is a thread that was positioned as an entirely critical view at the IP, it was always going to bring in a ton of people who dislike KH, especially when the critique of the game is framed as being narrative in nature in the actual OT name. I think it's horrible when neutral or outright positive OT's are hijacked by people trashing the IP the OT concerns, but this is not one of those cases.
Still, I agree the "stringing fans along" is demeaning, and out of line. It was distasteful, and rude. I'm sorry.
I agree with you OP, it really sucks. KH is a franchise with such potential yet it is constantly bogged down with this shit. Kingdom Hearts 1 was pretty close to perfect. Just the right amount of this crap, to the degree where it was still completely unobtrusive. Then it went completely off the deep end... and somehow kept going deeper. There's no way back now unfortunately and the franchise basically has become self-parody.
Also pretty disappointed that the core concept of a FF and Disney crossover has eroded over the years for this bad nonsensical anime story.
Also pretty disappointed that the core concept of a FF and Disney crossover has eroded over the years for this bad nonsensical anime story.
KH is like the world of Harry Potter in that the more you think about it the less sense it makes. And I say that as a fan of the series.
There are a lot of things like "heart" "light" and "darkness" that aren't ever really concretely explained and it makes the internal logic pretty wishy-washy. Even when reading the in-game explanations of these concepts, it's hard to actually visualize them and form a concrete picture in your head of how everything actually works.
Like no one knows what hearts are made out exactly, but it seems like they're made out of light and dark...so are light and dark tangible? And if characters in this world have the technology to create fully functioning clones and entire virtual realities...why exactly can't they figure out the makeup of these omnipresent hearts? And so clearly this heart isn't the same thing as a human heart that is made of cells and pumps blood...but do the characters in KH have that heart too? Do they even have cells and blood at all? You can go on and on...but you will never come away satisfied. And while of course any fantastical story requires suspension of disbelief from the consumer, it can be disorienting to experience a story like KH where it's like you can't apply any real-world logic to it at all. But I don't want to sound too negative about KH because despite everything I do think it's interesting in a way to have at least one major on-going series that is THIS abstract and allegorical with its storytelling and concepts. I just think the trick is to just accept things and not think about it too much lol.
Compare it to something like FF7. While that game's story does take some strange turns and gets silly and hard to follow at times, the core concepts like mako energy and the process of creating SOLDIERs are very easy to understand and apply real-world logic to. Despite all the crazy stuff that happens in this made-up world, there's still no doubt that Cloud and Tifa etc. are humans made of skin and bones who more or less act, think, and operate the same way that real humans do.
There are a lot of things like "heart" "light" and "darkness" that aren't ever really concretely explained and it makes the internal logic pretty wishy-washy. Even when reading the in-game explanations of these concepts, it's hard to actually visualize them and form a concrete picture in your head of how everything actually works.
Like no one knows what hearts are made out exactly, but it seems like they're made out of light and dark...so are light and dark tangible? And if characters in this world have the technology to create fully functioning clones and entire virtual realities...why exactly can't they figure out the makeup of these omnipresent hearts? And so clearly this heart isn't the same thing as a human heart that is made of cells and pumps blood...but do the characters in KH have that heart too? Do they even have cells and blood at all? You can go on and on...but you will never come away satisfied. And while of course any fantastical story requires suspension of disbelief from the consumer, it can be disorienting to experience a story like KH where it's like you can't apply any real-world logic to it at all. But I don't want to sound too negative about KH because despite everything I do think it's interesting in a way to have at least one major on-going series that is THIS abstract and allegorical with its storytelling and concepts. I just think the trick is to just accept things and not think about it too much lol.
Compare it to something like FF7. While that game's story does take some strange turns and gets silly and hard to follow at times, the core concepts like mako energy and the process of creating SOLDIERs are very easy to understand and apply real-world logic to. Despite all the crazy stuff that happens in this made-up world, there's still no doubt that Cloud and Tifa etc. are humans made of skin and bones who more or less act, think, and operate the same way that real humans do.
Oh, definitely; "deep" is not an adjective you'll see applied to KH's story very often, except when it's followed by "-ly nonsensical".
The funny thing is that even if you do understand KH3's narrative, it's still a pretty meh story because of how underused so many of the characters are, and how utterly STILTED the dialogue is. For a game that has such insane demands of the players to engage with its narrative (having to have played a god damn mobile game for crucial plot points, I mean come on lol) it's absolutely crazy how much expository dialogue the game has, and how much of that is actually just reaaaaally bad.
Somehow the game's narrative both felt rushed and drawn out - the at times almost meaningless dialouges seem to go on forever, but all the actual plot developments are dumped in the fnal hours of the game.
I'm really hoping that whatever comes next, it will be more straightforward and more focused. Having a bazillion characters and spending most of you dialogue budget on reminding players who they are when they pop up out of nowhere is detrimental to storytelling and pacing. I actually went back to KH1+2 a while after finishing 3 and found them to be so much more charming and fun.
Somehow the game's narrative both felt rushed and drawn out - the at times almost meaningless dialouges seem to go on forever, but all the actual plot developments are dumped in the fnal hours of the game.
I'm really hoping that whatever comes next, it will be more straightforward and more focused. Having a bazillion characters and spending most of you dialogue budget on reminding players who they are when they pop up out of nowhere is detrimental to storytelling and pacing. I actually went back to KH1+2 a while after finishing 3 and found them to be so much more charming and fun.
I honestly think it is one of the most ridiculous stories for a game out there. Granted it is a series spanning over 10 years and it went from: Okay this is weird but understandable to WTF IS GOING ON!?! The combat is great, some of the worlds are amazing, and the music is phenomenal. So that helps offset the fact the story is shit.
Also, has there been any other game where the main protagonist knows as little as the player? Throughout KH3 Sora is confused about almost every fucking thing and honestly I was right there with him in that confusion.
Also, has there been any other game where the main protagonist knows as little as the player? Throughout KH3 Sora is confused about almost every fucking thing and honestly I was right there with him in that confusion.
Disney / Pixar IPs is literally the only reason I care about KH. I do agree that they should separate it from the ridiculous convoluted faux-deep anime-crawling-up-its-own-ass stuff so that each audience can have what they want, because frankly I don't think there's a lot of overlap.
Whatever works for you, that's good you can enjoy it. Objectively, it's not good though.
Indeed. It happened for me when I finished 3. Good riddance.
I mean. The OP is ofensive and the last page has someone calling people who defends the story "a joke".
I come for the Disney tie-ins and I lose my sanity with everything else. I think KH3 was one of the most disappointing games I've ever played. The entire back half of the game when you run out of Disney worlds to go to is complete nonsense.
I see fans of the series upset that people would call the story objectively bad. Think what you want about the story I don't care, but I can tell you the direction IS objectively bad. I don't know how the Japanese games are, but it's like Square's localization team has never heard two human beings talk to each other. Why is there a 5 second gap between every line of dialogue (a problem in DQ11 and FFVII as well). Why are there major plot moments with characters only referred to as pronouns? There's nothing wrong with telling a convoluted story, but when you make no effort to make that experience enjoyable for the average player then you've failed, and I'm sorry, but there's no one here that can convince me that they made that effort (no, re-releasing all the games prior to the launch of KH3 doesn't count and isn't what I mean).
I see fans of the series upset that people would call the story objectively bad. Think what you want about the story I don't care, but I can tell you the direction IS objectively bad. I don't know how the Japanese games are, but it's like Square's localization team has never heard two human beings talk to each other. Why is there a 5 second gap between every line of dialogue (a problem in DQ11 and FFVII as well). Why are there major plot moments with characters only referred to as pronouns? There's nothing wrong with telling a convoluted story, but when you make no effort to make that experience enjoyable for the average player then you've failed, and I'm sorry, but there's no one here that can convince me that they made that effort (no, re-releasing all the games prior to the launch of KH3 doesn't count and isn't what I mean).