Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,529
I understand where you're coming from OP but for some reason I still love following it. It's ripe for theorizing because anything is possible and even your most insane predictions can't be shot down. I care about the characters, but the series has never made me feel any emotion other than "aww that's sweet" or "awww that's sad" like I'm never super devastated.

kinda like MGS, except MGS (mainly 1-3) actually can be broken up and taken as their own narratives with separate themes, the lore didn't really bog the series down until 4. And even that, PW and V had their own central themes that were much more resonant than KH. But yeah, with MGS I never felt they were super character driven
 

Benzychenz

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,471
Australia
Yeah I've been a fan since the very first game as a kid and I still couldn't explain to you how the realm of light and darkness and inbetween worlds and gummi space and everything works. it just is because Nomura wrote it that way.

The more you think about the universe the more it doesn't make sense.

That's not even getting into how the plot flows. The power in waking in KH3, what is it? Whatever the plot demands, that's what!

That said, I still love this crazy ride and I live for the twists.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,529
There are 5 different characters named Snake
Nah, simply for the fact that there's no time travel and magical body snatching (sans Liquid Ocelot I guess) in MGS, that alone makes it way less to parse through than KH.

it's odd because they don't release the games in timeline order, but if you go through it all it can be pieced relatively easily into a linear narrative, as crazy as it can be sometimes.
 

Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,670
I think the difficulty is trying to apply "rules" to it when the series doesn't care that much about rules. Just try to follow the emotions of the scenes without thinking too hard about the physical basis for what's going on. Characters die and come back depending on whether it makes for a good emotional punch, not depending on whether it should happen logically. If you approach the series in that way, I think you'll see it's not complicated at all, it's actually rather simplistic.

I'm not saying it's good writing, but I think that is the best you can get out of it.
 

Blent

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,361
East Midlands, England, UK
The thing about Kingdom Hearts is that it's all the Disney stuff, yet they insisted on all this ridiculous story

What is even the fucking point of paying all that money to have Disney stuff and making up all that Heartless bollocks when that could've been done in its own game?

Unfathomable waste
 

Jon God

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,342
The thing about Kingdom Hearts is that it's all the Disney stuff, yet they insisted on all this ridiculous story

What is even the fucking point of paying all that money to have Disney stuff and making up all that Heartless bollocks when that could've been done in its own game?

Unfathomable waste

This.
 

dskzero

Member
Oct 30, 2019
3,410
I haven't played it but I figured it probably isn't as obtuse as Bloodborne or Silent Hill 1.
 

Winston1

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,119
Also, has there been any other game where the main protagonist knows as little as the player? Throughout KH3 Sora is confused about almost every fucking thing and honestly I was right there with him in that confusion.
Only other game I can think of is Silent Hill 1. Most of the protagonists dialogue is just him saying that he doesn't understand anything that's happening. Which is probably what a first time player would be thinking due to the extremely vague, seemingly incomprehensible storytelling. In fact, one of the characters in the game even spouts a bunch of Kingdom Hearts-esque nonsense like "The town is being devoured by darkness", and the protagonist just goes "What are you talking about? I don't understand a word of this."
 
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King Kingo

Banned
Dec 3, 2019
7,656
This is one franchise that absolutely needs to be rebooted story wise due to it being convoluted for the sake of being convoluted.

Come on, this is a Disney and Square Enix mashup that clearly has a successful formula. It'd be creatively and financially stupid to reboot now when the series has reached peak popularity. Era's hate for this series is such a small but vocal bubble.
 

Zeal543

Next Level Seer
Member
May 15, 2020
5,887
KH's plot is truley abhorrent after the initial game. it's a shame because it could have been good, just have ansem team up with disney/square villains and litter the game with heartless. Instead we got all this dumb shit about the organization and whatever else is happening now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,382
Everytime I see a video or read a piece about how convoluted KH's story is I'm glad I was never invested in this franchise. It seems to be a zombie franchise at this point.
 

Wispmetas

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,550
Good to see we have already reached the point where people act like fans only care for KH because of the disney stuff, and the original stuff is an hindrance
 
Feb 13, 2018
3,864
Japan
It gets less confusing if you only pay attention to the main plot. You won't understand some specifics but the overall story is manageable. 1, CoM, 2, 358/2, BbS, 3D, and 3 are the important ones and CoM is summed up well enough in 2. I'd even say you can skip 258 and still get the gist of what happens with the summary in KH3.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,413
The thing about Kingdom Hearts is that it's all the Disney stuff, yet they insisted on all this ridiculous story

What is even the fucking point of paying all that money to have Disney stuff and making up all that Heartless bollocks when that could've been done in its own game?

Unfathomable waste

To rope people in. You come in for the Disney stuff, you stay for the sea salt ice cream and Yoko Shimomura.

Anytime your brain starts to fry the game just goes, "sshhhh, just listen to some nice, emotional music."




I haven't played it but I figured it probably isn't as obtuse as Bloodborne or Silent Hill 1.

Nah, its far more obtuse.

As many users have pointed out, this is the shit that is annoying and smug. Why can't a person enjoy something without being looked down upon for it?

Who is looking down on you?
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,349
After watching a variety of youtube story recaps that were all at least 30 mins, it's all bullshit. The naming conventions are stupid and everything is needlessly complex regardless of how shallow it actually is, not to mention it is all delivered via the most stilted cartoon dialogue that begs you to laugh at it.
 

The Last One

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,585
I think you need to separate yourself from the game a bit. If someone says, "that game sucks" it doesn't mean they're saying "you suck."

Oh year, suuuure. Thats what people are meaning.

I don't get it, why does Nomura keep adding complexity that no one sane wants?
Anyone who defends the KH story is a joke, just like the story. It's terrible and it sucks that it was allowed to get so bad.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,741
I enjoyed KH1 and KH2 back in the day up to a point, but the story is such a mess now there's no hope for me to ever come back to this franchise. And apparently they did nothing to ease lapsed players into KH3? lol
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,834
Oh year, suuuure. Thats what people are meaning.
naw you see thats just criticism bro. stop being so defensive

i will never understand why people who something obviously doesn't appeal to spend so much time being upset over it.

I get that KH brand of storytelling is not for everyone...but thats ok but nope so much of KH threads are people who fell off desperately wanting it to change for them....despite them falling off. Its like if I went into a FPS game thread and went...this should be a platformer and anyone who doesn't agree with me is insane. I enjoy a good "okay I believe you" meme like the next guy but holy shit certain franchises are just allowed to be trolled to death by people who just simply aren't the intended audience.

where they do that at?
 

MonadL

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,907
At some point I figured the convoluted plots in KH were basically parodies of how ridiculous JRPG plots had gotten during that era and KH3 takes it to its logical conclusion. There were some moments where the game is clearly in on the joke.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,985
The fact of the matter is that past KH2, Kingdom Hearts was an elaborate attempt by Nomura to get FFXIII Versus made
 

Nall

Member
Oct 25, 2017
377
Kingdom Hearts is like the Gaming side's Naruto. You all hate it so much, but you just can't stop talking about it. Just "Let it Go."
 

Deleted member 9972

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
684
One of my biggest problems is that everyone is seemingly immortal. I kill a Nobody, it becomes a completed person, which is basically a Nobody without superpowers and a hood. The completed person then says "I wanna become a Nobody because I like superpowers and a hood" and then becomes a Nobody and now I get to fight them again. Then I kill them and they play sad music and I sit here wondering why I care about any of this because there's absolutely no consequences to anything.
 

RLCC14

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,447
KH is basically the ramblings of a 40 year old chuuni given too much money and power. Either you accept that and roll with it or not. Simple as that.
The thing about Kingdom Hearts is that it's all the Disney stuff, yet they insisted on all this ridiculous story

What is even the fucking point of paying all that money to have Disney stuff and making up all that Heartless bollocks when that could've been done in its own game?

Unfathomable waste
Because KH is a modern adventure shonen and the disney worlds are shorthands for the locations of each arc. Think of the disney worlds as the equivalent of early One Piece islands. Self contained with their own plots that our heroes go to, help out, and then move on to the next. Because they're abridged versions of things we already know, they don't have to waste time developing the world and can have Sora and the gang get in/get out quickly before going to the next world.
 

Jerm

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
5,885
I love the responses that are like "it's not that hard to understand/makes complete sense" without any type of coherent explanation on why that is, relative to OP's breakdown. I would love for any of these people to give their own concise explanation that doesn't seem like "it's good because I like it/you're just a hater" lol.

Like, no shit it's a popular topic here, we're on a video game enthusiast forum. It's fair to question what the fuck happened or the logic behind making a successful series off-putting to most everyone who grew up with it when it could have taken a coherent route and been celebrated. It's not a conspiracy or people attempting to drag the game down just because you like it or "understand".
 

King Kingo

Banned
Dec 3, 2019
7,656
The thing about Kingdom Hearts is that it's all the Disney stuff, yet they insisted on all this ridiculous story

What is even the fucking point of paying all that money to have Disney stuff and making up all that Heartless bollocks when that could've been done in its own game?

Unfathomable waste


This sort of argument is weak when you realise that Kingdom Hearts is the only Disney video game series to stand the test of time. How relevant is Epic Mickey? How relevant is Disney INFINITY? Kingdom Hearts is as popular as it is because of its original content and how said original content sample Disney's feature film content.

I'm not denying that the story direction is a turn off for some people because of how convoluted it can get. But to say that it shouldn't have any sort of identity of its own whatsoever is a disservice to the many elements about Kingdom Hearts that fans love. Again, this is a successful franchise.

I haven't played it but I figured it probably isn't as obtuse as Bloodborne or Silent Hill 1.

Everytime I see a video or read a piece about how convoluted KH's story is I'm glad I was never invested in this franchise. It seems to be a zombie franchise at this point.

You can purchase The Story So Far and have a feel as to whether Kingdom Hearts is for you or not.



It's dirt cheap and the volume of content is worth the price. Even if the story's not for you then maybe the gameplay will be?

At some point I figured the convoluted plots in KH were basically parodies of how ridiculous JRPG plots had gotten during that era and KH3 takes it to its logical conclusion. There were some moments where the game is clearly in on the joke.

Alex literally says the word plot-points so it's clear that the writers of the series are self-aware of how convoluted the franchise is.
 

seroun

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
4,519
No need to throw people who enjoy something others don't under the bus, you can dislike the story without insulting the people who like it.

This whole thread feels like just another excuse for people to rally around their shared intense "hatred" for a game series they don't enjoy, and eventually exaggerate their opinion to the point where they start picking on people who don't share their frustrations.

It happens every freaking Kingdom Hearts thread and it's so repetitive. Why is it so legitimately hurtful for people? Why is it that the ones who only have an issue with the story are willing to let others bully people trying to refute stuff? Even a poorly worded response that's just trying to point out the unfair dicotomy gets picked apart and set upon like a pack of vultures.

I never understood why people tribalize around a story being bad. Yeah, I like the story, so my opinion has some level of bias that is hard to ignore, but taking that out of here for a second, the level of consistent vitriol that shows up in these topics from the same people again and again is so tiring.

At least keep other people out of it and don't insult others. Criticism of the story and a frustration is understandable and acceptable to talk about, provided it doesn't spill into rudeness and insults. This stuff gets out of hand way too quickly, and feels like a group venting session that quickly bullies dissenting opinion.

Videogames are important until they aren't, and that definition fits the intent of the one making the distinction.

I'm caught between caring too much to let this stuff go, and caring too little to imagine getting this rude about not liking something. This same dichotomy fits criticisim of the "bad" story, and how "dumb" people are to protect it.

Keeping it (simple and) clean and fostering thoughtful discussion, wether positive or negative, should be a prime consideration, and the way most folks speak about Kingdom Hearts certainly doesn't inspire hope for that.

In conclusion, we get it, the story doesn't make sense. Heartless = Heart, Nobody = Body, Brain = Conniption.

There is a sea of games to enjoy that aren't Kingdom Hearts, so remove yourself from this thing that you hate, and use that to find or enjoy something you love.

Probably best post in this whole forum.
 

Nakenorm

"This guy are sick"
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
22,732
keep people on the hook forever...but there is a point where people stop caring lol

Lol, yeah. I bowed out when they started doing "spin-offs" on every damn platform available.
Still bought the collection and 3 but at that point I did so only for the gameplay, I really couldn't care less about the overall story or characters.
 

Chumunga64

Member
Jun 22, 2018
14,624
Every now and then I play though the series and the difference between 1 and the rest of the series is staggering

The characters are a lot less "philosophical" and sora, riku, and Kairi actually act like friends.

It benefits from being relatively stand alone and without too much Nomura influence

Lastly, the cutscenes direction is way better (just compare the sephiroth intro cutscene in 1 and 2) thanks to Jun Akiyama
 

GoldStarz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,040
It is not simple to understand. Just because you understand it and it can be explained to someone after three hours doesn't mean it's not confusing. Please explain the nature of Roxas and how he returned in KH3 and then tell me that is "easy to understand."
1) When Sora is a baby, he accepts Ventus' broken heart into his body.
2) Years later, Sora sacrifices himself and his heart and body are split becoming a heartless and nobody respectively.
3) Because Ventus' heart is still sleeping in Sora's body, it influences his nobody, causing it to become a separate entity from Sora
4) Meanwhile, Kairi uses her Princess of Heart powers to purify Sora from being a heartless, this doesn't return his body though and he is essentially a walking heart
5) Roxas 're-grows' his heart over time, as Nobodies do.
6) When Roxas reunites with Sora, what remains of his heart lies dormant in him as well.
7) They put the heart in the replica and now he has a body.

KH's problem isn't (generally) that the information is obtuse but the mechanism of delivery is, with a lot of information of varying importance being stashed in lore books or the mobile game. This question though is literally just right there in the games.

dont ask me to explain xion tho i still dont really get that one even after playing the dlc
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,413
obtuse
annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

abstruse
difficult to understand; obscure.

obtuse
difficult to comprehend
:
not clear or precise in thought or expression

I almost thought I fucked up, but I didn't. Whew.


No need to throw people who enjoy something others don't under the bus, you can dislike the story without insulting the people who like it.

naw you see thats just criticism bro. stop being so defensive

I just went through the entire thread and so far this is the only post that comes close to "insulting" fans:

Anyone who defends the KH story is a joke, just like the story. It's terrible and it sucks that it was allowed to get so bad.

No one has insulted the fandom. Criticizing the overtly convoluted story is not an attack nor is stating that the overall story is not well written.
 

Jerm

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
5,885
Rereading this thread, I can't believe the number of people that take any criticism of this series personally enough to feel attacked. Many long time fans had issues with how everything panned out, whether you want to admit it or not. That's where the criticism and questioning comes from, it's nothing directed at you lol. Take that passion and put it towards refuting OP and other members' criticisms to explain why they're wrong.
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,834
fam you called anyone who didn't agree with you not sane.

And when someone attempts to explain it to you, you go "naw thats dumb"

so wtf do you even want beyond "yeah you are right".

I'm not even saying its the pinnacle of storytelling and again I think Nomura muddies the water so to speak with all of the moving pieces (which honestly came about due to him juggling Versus for so long and filling the gaps inbetween with so many spinoffs that he made seem deeply important but outside of BBS could really just been summed up in a paragraph...like in DDD Xenonart comes back and we learn of the power of waking....thats it lol) but its pure chaotic energy is exactly why I am in to it. The best part of each of the games IMO isn't the Disney parts (The One Piece island comp is very apt) but the moments when shit gets fucking nuts logic be damned. Scalling Skyscrapers that were thrown at you is the hypest shit. Mickey Mouse 1 V 13 motherfuckers is the hypest shit. Thats why I play KH....and to see people constantly ask for a more grounded series because they don't feel like engaging annoys me to no end because not many series brings it like this...flaws and all.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,413
fam you called anyone who didn't agree with you not sane.

And when someone attempts to explain it to you, you go "naw thats dumb"

so wtf do you even want beyond "yeah you are right".

Yes, to people saying the story isn't convoluted. It is. To say otherwise is to either be unable to face reality or to be mistruthing.

The series is convoluted, you can like it all you want but it is convoluted. I
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,834
Rereading this thread, I can't believe the number of people that take any criticism of this series personally enough to feel attacked. Many long time fans had issues with how everything panned out, whether you want to admit it or not. That's where the criticism and questioning comes from, it's nothing directed at you lol. Take that passion and put it towards refuting OP and other members' criticisms to explain why they're wrong.
there is nothing to refute.

Its their opinion. It makes sense to me (again its told in a cluttered manner) and I can explain most of the fuckery. Again I have no clue about what happens in the mobile game but the moments in KH3 that were apparently referencing that...still worked despite that.

and again stop hiding being the almighty guise of "criticism" in which only negative impression seem to count. KH3 is not a perfect game. KH is not a perfect series BUT the constant pushing that everyone hates it is annoying as fuck to me. Not everyone bounced off of it like so many constantly claim. I am sure some did. Those who expected Kairi to do something probably are pissed. There are things to pick at but I take offense almost to those who basically wish for the series to be something completely different.
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,834
Yes, to people saying the story isn't convoluted. It is. To say otherwise is to either be unable to face reality or to be mistruthing.

The series is convoluted, you can like it all you want but it is convoluted. I

Its convoluted to YOU. Stop acting like your viewpoint is law and anyone who disagrees is an insane person.

This shit is subjective as fuck.

why is this such a hard concept to grasp
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,413
Its convoluted to YOU. Stop acting like your viewpoint is law and anyone who disagrees is an insane person.

This shit is subjective as fuck.

why is this such a hard concept to grasp

No, it is convoluted.

The ability to understand something does not make it suddenly not convoluted. Astrophysics is not simple to understand, it is convoluted. The fact that it is understandable and perhaps even "simple" To Neil DeGrasse Tyson doesn't change the fact that it is a complicated field of study.

I like MGS, I once in an insane moment made a thread saying it wasn't convoluted. I was wrong as I suddenly thought back at the numerous retcons and relationships between characters built up over the series. MGS isn't anywhere near as convoluted as KH, but the fact that clones and weird sci-fi magic exists already necessitates that it be classified as convoluted.
 

piratethingy

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,428
and again stop hiding being the almighty guise of "criticism" in which only negative impression seem to count. KH3 is not a perfect game. KH is not a perfect series BUT the constant pushing that everyone hates it is annoying as fuck to me.

Man you guys just really love to straw man. Who said everyone hates KH? People are not bending on claiming the story is convoluted, so you put words in their mouths.