We'll simply agree to disagree there. I honestly didn't see anything innovative in the combat system that hadn't been done a million times before in other megaten games. It's refined over the original, but these improvements are somewhat minor.
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I love turn-based battles
- Thread starter Liquid Plejades
- Start date
We'll simply agree to disagree there. I honestly didn't see anything innovative in the combat system that hadn't been done a million times before in other megaten games. It's refined over the original, but these improvements are somewhat minor.
For Divinity, it takes time to unlock the options that really open the game up.
I'm playing with two lone wolf rogue/ranger hybrids that have access to all the high mobility moves, elemental arrows, daggers, invisibility - the works. It's really fun. You end up zipping around the battlefield like a ninja, which I haven't had from any other TB system. The mechanics and possible builds are wide ranging and robust, which I don't think you'll really see in the initial 90 minutes.
Unfortunately, it's XCOM2's strategic layer that lets it down for me; it pales in comparison to OG XCOM. Back then, it felt like you were playing against a diabolical AI. All Firaxis XCOMs lack that. In my opinion, the tactical layer is a massive step up in (pretty much) every way.
Did you ever play the original back in the day? The level of destruction was insane.
Except this is actually demonstrably bullshit because Action RPGs are pretty much just as old as turn based ones. For example the first Ys game came out months before the first final fantasy
I love turn-based combat. Old school RPG's like FF are great.
That being said, there's a whole new generation of turn based games, usually rogue likes. This year, I loved Star Renegades and Convoy.
That being said, there's a whole new generation of turn based games, usually rogue likes. This year, I loved Star Renegades and Convoy.
Really. How many people were in your party for the first Ys game? How many people were in your party for the first FF game?
What was the release date for Dragon Quest II? How many people were in that party? What were the release dates for Wizardry 1, 2, and 3? How many people were in those parties? What form of combat did those games use?
I can't choose between Valkyrie Profile 2 and Resonance of Fate. I love the mix of turn based, action prompts and movement strategy in their systems.
I hate that so many modern jRPG's have transitioned to an action style type of combat. Played through Xenoblade Chronicles 2 last year and there's just no fun in battles without the strategic element of turned based.
I love turn-based battles, but the bar has been raised dramatically since the 90s. If you want me to spend 60+hrs on this system, it needs to be well-designed and not a slog to get through. Mechanics like Bravely Default and fast UI like Persona 5 contribute greatly to those areas.
Yep, love it. Hate when developers think they're improving a series by going from turn-based to action.
Dragon Quest XI S sets the standard here IMO. It's so quick and snappy, an absolute joy to play.
It's why I love Bravely Default so much too. Speed up battles, customize moves and repeat actions. You can do some awesome stuff in Bravely Default to speed up basic battles - just max out brave and nuke your opponent in one turn.
The Shin Megami Tensei games get it right too. With variations on a press-turn system, you get advantages when you hit a weak point (but so do your enemies!), with modern SMT games having auto battle and even auto weakness moves to speed things up.
Pokemon hasn't been as strong IMO for various reasons, the games feel a bit sluggish in comparison, even though the core gameplay is fine, I just find the EV value system a bit flawed - you're better sticking with your earliest pokemon that you've trained rather than catching new pokemon, so there isn't much incentive to change your party up much.
I've soured on Final Fantasy over the years as it continues to reinvent itself constantly. FFXII story was great and my favorite in years, but the gameplay put me to sleep... FFXV gameplay was the worst yet I don't really understand what I'm meant to be doing, it seemed great at first, but I realized it's mostly flashy and has no depth. TBH my problems with FF go beyond the gameplay systems and are more with story and direction. I've yet to play FFVII remake.
Dragon Quest XI S sets the standard here IMO. It's so quick and snappy, an absolute joy to play.
It's why I love Bravely Default so much too. Speed up battles, customize moves and repeat actions. You can do some awesome stuff in Bravely Default to speed up basic battles - just max out brave and nuke your opponent in one turn.
The Shin Megami Tensei games get it right too. With variations on a press-turn system, you get advantages when you hit a weak point (but so do your enemies!), with modern SMT games having auto battle and even auto weakness moves to speed things up.
Pokemon hasn't been as strong IMO for various reasons, the games feel a bit sluggish in comparison, even though the core gameplay is fine, I just find the EV value system a bit flawed - you're better sticking with your earliest pokemon that you've trained rather than catching new pokemon, so there isn't much incentive to change your party up much.
I've soured on Final Fantasy over the years as it continues to reinvent itself constantly. FFXII story was great and my favorite in years, but the gameplay put me to sleep... FFXV gameplay was the worst yet I don't really understand what I'm meant to be doing, it seemed great at first, but I realized it's mostly flashy and has no depth. TBH my problems with FF go beyond the gameplay systems and are more with story and direction. I've yet to play FFVII remake.
You know what, that's fair, but Sorcerian was an ARPG with a party that was released literally two days after FF1
I can only really stomach turn based battles when there's some kind of action required of me beyond "press this to attack".
Like in the Mario RPG games you have the "press A at the right moment to double damage!" Or whatever. Or as a different example, how in Mother you have the Rolodex system, meaning you have to stay on your toes with your speed and timing.
If a game doesn't have some form of that, I WILL get bored.
Like in the Mario RPG games you have the "press A at the right moment to double damage!" Or whatever. Or as a different example, how in Mother you have the Rolodex system, meaning you have to stay on your toes with your speed and timing.
If a game doesn't have some form of that, I WILL get bored.
To be fair, I think what most people end up not liking about turn based combat is that "turn based RPG" at some point became synonymous with "fight the exact same group of enemies 40 times in a row". A process that is boring in both turn based and real time games but significantly harder to push yourself through in a turn based game.
I think this is why you don't (or at least I don't) see too much people have a problem with Fire Emblem being turn based. In a SRPG usually every encounter is completely unique and require unique strategies so it rarely feels like you're wasting time.
I think this is why you don't (or at least I don't) see too much people have a problem with Fire Emblem being turn based. In a SRPG usually every encounter is completely unique and require unique strategies so it rarely feels like you're wasting time.
Round-based like pre-11 dragon quest >> regular turn-based like FFX >> ATB >>> ATB in the middle final fantasies
I won't even bother with arpgs
I won't even bother with arpgs
I'm still salty that a FFVII Remake game didn't come with some form of all-in turn-based combat. I wish so badly that the game would have been designed from the ground up to be a stylized game from Midgar to the Northern Crater in one package.
Just because something doesn't innovate, or do something wildly new, it doesn't mean it's not great.
You don't always have to reinvent the wheel. Just be a great wheel.
On a separate note: XCOM style turn based combat is a major weakness for me. I'm like a moth to a light when I see that combat.
Dragon Quest II was party based and released in January of 1987 on the famicom, months earlier than all of those.
The Dragon Quest series was directly inspired by turn based party roleplaying games like Ultima and Wizardry.
Those games go back to 1979 and were turn based out of necessity. Real time combat (especially not for a party) could not be done for technical reasons at that time.
I enjoy turn based games but I have issues with it.
Mostly when the games don't know when to take breaks from battles.
Take the old JRPGs as an example. You walk around this huge world and keep running into enemies. Sure you can escape but you will need to grind at some point or else you will be under powered. It gets even worse when you have to transition to and out of the battles. This makes it feels too... clunky and bloated?
In a lot of games you have these huge dungeons that overstay their welcome and are basically not fun. You keep exploring and looking for key items to advance and while this is going you have random battles so the dungeon just feels so long if you don't know what to do. To be fair though, some non turn based games have this issue like FF7R (but more so length wise as there is no real random encounters) but by and large I felt this issue in turn based games.
I really enjoy the games that attempt to combat this. Persona 3 as an example made it so enemies themselves start running away from you if you are way too strong compared to them. This made the dungeons less of a hassle and more fast paced.
Old Yakuza used to have this issue as well but in brawling form during free roam (the long battles though were a blast as it was seamless). Yakuza on the PS3 used to make you get into random fights so you had to wait for the game to transition to battles then beat the goons up in a few seconds. This sucked but they improved it with the later games and you could basically escape without issues. Then the Dragon engine was introduced and it became seamless so there were no more issues... until 7 changed into a turn based game and the old issues returned.
I am not sure how they can break the barrier as some people do enjoy the transitions and the random encounters.
Mostly when the games don't know when to take breaks from battles.
Take the old JRPGs as an example. You walk around this huge world and keep running into enemies. Sure you can escape but you will need to grind at some point or else you will be under powered. It gets even worse when you have to transition to and out of the battles. This makes it feels too... clunky and bloated?
In a lot of games you have these huge dungeons that overstay their welcome and are basically not fun. You keep exploring and looking for key items to advance and while this is going you have random battles so the dungeon just feels so long if you don't know what to do. To be fair though, some non turn based games have this issue like FF7R (but more so length wise as there is no real random encounters) but by and large I felt this issue in turn based games.
I really enjoy the games that attempt to combat this. Persona 3 as an example made it so enemies themselves start running away from you if you are way too strong compared to them. This made the dungeons less of a hassle and more fast paced.
Old Yakuza used to have this issue as well but in brawling form during free roam (the long battles though were a blast as it was seamless). Yakuza on the PS3 used to make you get into random fights so you had to wait for the game to transition to battles then beat the goons up in a few seconds. This sucked but they improved it with the later games and you could basically escape without issues. Then the Dragon engine was introduced and it became seamless so there were no more issues... until 7 changed into a turn based game and the old issues returned.
I am not sure how they can break the barrier as some people do enjoy the transitions and the random encounters.
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Depends.
If its just two parties standing in a line, facing each other, and chucking stats back-and-forth, then meh. Might as well make it real-time so I can get it over with faster.
But if its like Into The Breach, Vakyria Chronicles, or X-Com, where there is a full map in play, and an actual 'puzzle' to figure out, then yea, that stuff can be great fun.
(I get that sometimes the 'standing in a line against each other' type can have a puzzle element to it, but I've never found it to be anywhere near as engaging as an actual full-grid battle-map)
If its just two parties standing in a line, facing each other, and chucking stats back-and-forth, then meh. Might as well make it real-time so I can get it over with faster.
But if its like Into The Breach, Vakyria Chronicles, or X-Com, where there is a full map in play, and an actual 'puzzle' to figure out, then yea, that stuff can be great fun.
(I get that sometimes the 'standing in a line against each other' type can have a puzzle element to it, but I've never found it to be anywhere near as engaging as an actual full-grid battle-map)
Again I gave you an example of a real time party based game that came out in the same year. And if we ignore the fairly pointless restriction of "party based" action based combat in video games and even rpgs is actually about as old as turn based if not older
I love the HEX system in Wild Arms and the battle system in Grandia III.
The feeling when pull off a long card combo like this is so satisfying.
The feeling when pull off a long card combo like this is so satisfying.
Turn based RPGs are great. My favorite battle systems are SMT and Persona. Very snappy and satisfying to play.
I'm a big fan of Dragon Quest too. Maybe not the most exciting but the enemy design and the way the battles themselves have little fat really make them nice to me.
I find them very relaxing in general so I like playing them to destress.
I'm a big fan of Dragon Quest too. Maybe not the most exciting but the enemy design and the way the battles themselves have little fat really make them nice to me.
I find them very relaxing in general so I like playing them to destress.
You assumed when I said that turn based combat was a compromise born out of necessity that I was talking about FF1, and gave me an example from 1987 to prove me wrong.
I wasn't talking about FF, or even Dragon Quest. I was talking about Ultima and Wizardry which predated those games and go back to the late 70s. Citing a party based game from 1987 to prove I was "wrong" that real time combat couldn't be practically done in 1981 or 1982 when Wizardry and Ultima were blowing up doesn't make sense.
When controlling a party, especially on hardware THAT old turn based was a necessity. Real time combat couldn't be done.
And it should be obvious, but game development was WAY shorter in the 80s. Months, not years. Sorcerian likely didn't begin development until after DQ2 was on shelves, which is why I pointed out that one of those was in December and the other was in January.
I like traditional roguelikes, stuff like XCOM, board games... just generally not traditional JRPGs. Them being turn-based isn't pushing me away.
Don't sleep on South Park The Stick of Truth.
It has really great turn based battles, and pokes a lot of fun at RPG tropes.
It has really great turn based battles, and pokes a lot of fun at RPG tropes.
none of ya'll are wrong about FFX
only FF game I've beaten and it was so so so good
playing through VIII right now
only FF game I've beaten and it was so so so good
playing through VIII right now
I'll need to check out the new Yakuza game when it hits PS5 next year. I tried to get into the series with 4, but it didn't click with me, but maybe this new version will.
Turn-based games are fantastic. You have good ones and bad ones, just like real-time. I love systems like DQ and FFXIII that push you to use your entire range of spells/abilities. I'm talking buffs, debuffs, defensive abilities, offensive - everything.
Real-time games are great too, but I feel like it's a bit harder to hit those high notes of a truly satisfying combat system and really good encounter/boss design. When a game does hit that though? It's bliss.
Turn-based games are fantastic. You have good ones and bad ones, just like real-time. I love systems like DQ and FFXIII that push you to use your entire range of spells/abilities. I'm talking buffs, debuffs, defensive abilities, offensive - everything.
Real-time games are great too, but I feel like it's a bit harder to hit those high notes of a truly satisfying combat system and really good encounter/boss design. When a game does hit that though? It's bliss.
So here's the thing: even if it was originally conceived as a way of compensating for hardware (which is still wrong because real time combat in games is still older than turn based when you stop restricting yourself to rpgs and games like wizardry and ultima were turn based because they were directly trying to ape Dungeons and Dragons, not because they were trying to make a fantasy adventure and couldn't think of a way to do it with real time combat) that doesn't make them inferior. Seamus's morph ball in Metroid was originally conceived because crawling and crouching animations were hard on the NES, good ideas can be born because people were trying to get around limitations
If you're looking for an arty/open-world take on Final Fantasy: Tactics, make sure you check out "Tenderfoot Tactics" - it's got FF:Tactics' job system, but starring magical goblins in a mythic, psychedelic world encroached upon by a menacing fog.
It unfortunately doesn't have line-of-sight/cover mechanics, but it *does* have massively deformable/dynamic terrain that gives a lot of depth to the combat. I've been having a riot dropping ice meteors onto my enemies which blow large, water-filled holes in the earth for them to traverse, but I've also started playing with creating hedges as barriers to slow enemy melee, which I subsequently light on fire when the time is right
Lots of ways to control turn order too. It's a pile of fun, and I find it gorgeous to look at, personally (the art style is apparently based on the paintings of the Group of Seven - it's low poly and very stylized)
It unfortunately doesn't have line-of-sight/cover mechanics, but it *does* have massively deformable/dynamic terrain that gives a lot of depth to the combat. I've been having a riot dropping ice meteors onto my enemies which blow large, water-filled holes in the earth for them to traverse, but I've also started playing with creating hedges as barriers to slow enemy melee, which I subsequently light on fire when the time is right
Lots of ways to control turn order too. It's a pile of fun, and I find it gorgeous to look at, personally (the art style is apparently based on the paintings of the Group of Seven - it's low poly and very stylized)
If that were the case we wouldn't have seen turn based combat progressively abandoned as hardware improved, which we did throughout the 80s, 90s, and later. Turn based systems used in those games were done primarily for technical reasons. They aren't anymore.
It does make them a compromise. As we have seen, devs (especially western devs) rarely if ever use turn based systems for their games once hardware caught up to a point where real time combat was practical for party based systems. Turn based has its uses, but in most cases it's possible and even preferable to implement a real time solution, or a real time/turn based hybrid at this point.
Turn-based RPG's are great. They're not for everyone and that's okay. With that being said, people who are of the opinion that this specific style of gameplay is antiquated, and should be abandoned, are people with very little in the realm of patience I feel.
It's on my list. The visuals look sooooo good. Pixel art has come such a long way.
It's on my list. The visuals look sooooo good. Pixel art has come such a long way.
Persona 5 Royal is probably my favorite turn-based system
Other notable ones:
Final Fantasy X
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
Mario & Luigi series
Bravely Default
Xenogears
Other notable ones:
Final Fantasy X
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
Mario & Luigi series
Bravely Default
Xenogears
I feel a dagger in my heart whenever someone says turn-based combat is "obselete". I will die on this hill.
A solution that I know a lot of people aren't going to like would be to significantly cut the business inbetween meaningful encounters. Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne for example is a game that's almost entirely boss fights and I think it's safe to say that boss fights are what people like the most in these games. There's still random encounters for sure and they can even be annoying but the next boss is never far away and in some cases you'll fight a boss and then walk down the next hallway and run into the next one. It's relentless but it mostly feels meaningful.
I mean if you ignore indies and the like and that there might be reasons a dev might not want to use turn based games beyond the quality of the system. A reminder that there was a long period where nobody wanted to make 2D games when 3D was first a thing, but now they're being made again and many are incredibly well received
Also it's telling you specified that the abandonment of turn based is largely a thing in western AAA games and nowhere else because it comes off as incredibly narrow minded and possibly a bit racist
Never liked them as a kid and I don't like them now.
That's why Super Paper Mario is the best in the series.
That's why Super Paper Mario is the best in the series.
Yeah this sounds way better IMO.
SMT3 is one of my favorite turn based games for those reasons. I wish more games would focus more on crafting fun encounters instead of randomized ones that always feel like filler, especially if they are in a huge dungeon.
OP
OP
Both turn based and real time offer different experiences and I like both at different times. Acting like only real time is valid anymore has always been narrow minded. Thankfully plenty of devs don't listen to these people and we have loads of options for turn based gameplay out there if you look outside of AAAs.
Yes, I love me some turn-based! Battles are an engaging puzzle to solve instead of a test of reflexes. I judge those who don't "get them" very harshly.
We lost Final Fantasy to these idiots! :)
We lost Final Fantasy to these idiots! :)
Yes turn based was created out of compromise, so what though? Sprites were also used because of technical limitations as well, but many games still use that style because it's still beautiful. In many ways, that limitation enhances creativity.
