I hope Lara Croft's personality is more in line with the classic games in the future and not as whiny as the Crystal Dynamics latest trilogy

[DanielG123]

Eh, I like reboot Lara, especially in Rise. She's an incredibly flawed person that has selfish tendencies, and a very tunnel vison mindset, but recognizes these flaws in her character either after someone (Jonah, lol) calls her out, or on her own. She then tries to go about fixing herself and being better. I haven't finished Shadow yet, but so far, it seems that those cracks and imperfections are being stretched to their limit in that game, and I'm invested in seeing how Lara overcomes them. Yeah, making characters vulnerable and open is never the end all be all for storytelling, but in this particular case, with this trilogy, seeing Lara having to overcome her personal struggles to claim victory, and being humbled along the way has kept me invested in her as a character, and how she'll hopefully grow.

 

[Deleted member 5127]

I don't hate reboot Lara but that posh sassiness needs to come back, she's had three games now to grow into a less insecure role. So more of a mix of the two.

 

[808s & Villainy]

Only guys are allowed to be sassy lol

 

[Agamon]

Flawed characters are bad? So, what, do we need more mary sues? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Buttonbasher]

This thread just reminds me of how when Bend was focus testing Uncharted: Golden Abyss, the people invited to played the game regarded Chase as whiny, "bitchy" and other such things. I believe there's an excerpt in there about how Amy Hennig warned them about how people receive female characters unfairly in that regard and how they would need to pay extra attention to that aspect, unfortunately.

On topic, I think the writing in the third game is extremely mixed in quality, but I feel like if Lara had been a man in the games the conversation might have been about how he subverts expectations and is surprisingly flawed.

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Totally agree with you. Uncharted does a similar plotline of a reckless adventurer who is hurting those around him in the pursuit of treasure, and got heaps of praise for it.

This thread bums me out, as someone who found the Reboot character to be the only interesting Lara.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Yes, because Lara should go back to be a one-dimensional sex symbol.

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You probably skipped this paragraph:

Yes those outfits wouldn't fly in 2021, some men drooling over her would just be too cringe nowadays and you can tell there wasn't a single woman in the room when those games were written. But my god did she have an actual personality.

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In no way did i ever say the tone of the game should remain the same. Same for those outfits and how people looked at her.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Flawed characters are bad? So, what, do we need more mary sues? Inquiring minds want to know.

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Totally agree with you. Uncharted does a similar plotline of a reckless adventurer who is hurting those around him in the pursuit of treasure, and got heaps of praise for it.

This thread bums me out, as someone who found the Reboot character to be the only interesting Lara.

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The Uncharted series knows exactly what to do with their characters and isn't a series or multiple ideas clashing together.
There isn't a dissonance between cut-scene Drake and gameplay Drake like there is with Tomb Raider.

It's not against flawed characters. It's about how those flawed characters are written.

You're not really trying to even compare the writing on Tomb Raider with Uncharted...right?

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Only guys are allowed to be sassy lol

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She was way sassier in the original games which i'm defending right now, so i don't get your point?

 

[Mik317]

My thing is that its at odds with the gameplay and just general role of the character. People keep bringing up the sex symbol shit when its not about that at all. OG Laura gave no fucks and considering the era for a female lead that was rare as fuck IMO. You can call that a generic action hero but there aren't many if any female leads that are "just generic action heroes...er heroines" either. And for a game that is tasking you to end a gazillion lives while exploring ancient tombs with death traps....i think the generic action hero type fits more than "idk if I can do this" type before you get sick head shots.

thats just me tho

 

[Buttonbasher]

The Uncharted series knows exactly what to do with their characters and isn't a series or multiple ideas clashing together.
There isn't a dissonance between cut-scene Drake and gameplay Drake like there is with Tomb Raider.

It's not against flawed characters. It's about how those flawed characters are written.

You're not really trying to even compare the writing on Tomb Raider with Uncharted...right?

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Writing and storytelling are different beasts entirely.

I will say I completely disagree with the notion that cutscene Drake and gameplay Drake aren't effectively different characters. That always pushed me away from those games, and is a pretty common complaint.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

My thing is that its at odds with the gameplay and just general role of the character. People keep bringing up the sex symbol shit when its not about that at all. OG Laura gave no fucks and considering the era for a female lead that was rare as fuck IMO. You can call that a generic action hero but there aren't many if any female leads that are "just generic action heroes...er heroines" either. And for a game that is tasking you to end a gazillion lives while exploring ancient tombs with death traps....i think the generic action hero type fits more than "idk if I can do this" type before you get sick head shots.

thats just me tho

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Thank you.

 

[Gestault]

Context: In the above cut-scene Lara had just caused an entire village to disappear. And yet she's screaming and yelling about going "after the box" because Trinity can't get there first and that she's "the only one that can do it", totally ignoring the damage she had just done and barely even taking a look at the people in the village.

Even Joah has to scream at her and say "not everything is about you" That's how you know Lara as a character is totally lost.

It always rubbed me the wrong way that cutscene. And honestly? The entire segment.

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The point of the scene is that you're supposed to see she's lost any meaningful connections, and cares more about "winning" against Trinity than actually helping people. Jonah is the voice of reason in that scene, and Lara deserves the side-eye from the audience. Fiction showing a character doing something bad doesn't mean the "text" of the narrative is saying it's good. Obviously there's tons of room for taste about the execution, but the editorial intent is clear.

(If you're just sharing it as an example of what someone could see as whining, I get you, but that moment was one of the extremes, and is supposed to be her at her worst/most selfish.)

 

[ghostcrew]

There isn't a dissonance between cut-scene Drake and gameplay Drake like there is with Tomb Raider.

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I actually feel like that's been a massive complaint about the Uncharted games forever.

Christ, Uncharted 4 has a trophy titled 'Ludonarrative Dissonance' for killing 1,000 enemies, in tribute to the conversations that Uncharted spawned.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

I've only played the first game out of the new trilogy, but what hit me is how Lara lacked the confidence. She did all by herself, she saved her friends, killed dozens of guys, climbed mountains, survived this and that etc. and yet she still was "I can't do this!", "what am I going to do?!" for most of the game. So even if you can't describe her as "whiny", she really lacked self confidence, the sass and the feeling of being in control from the old games (both Core 's and Crystal Dynamics'), even though in-game she was basically a super heroine. It clashed really hard.

 

[Nooblet]

I really liked the Legends Trilogy Lara, especially in Underworld.

Can we start off by making her atleast be in her 30s? Lara Croft I feel is a character that now needs to be older. We have old dudes as heroes all the time, why not make an iconic character like her older too? Especially when she used to be older.

 

[Linus815]

That's not the case here. You're talking to someone that spent god knows how many hours online defending Walter White's wife's character back when Breaking Bad was on because everyone kept calling her "a bitch" and "insufferable" when everything about her made sense. Now that's how you create a flawed and interesting character. That's what's like to have a decent writing team with you.

Maybe i shouldn't be mixing videogame writing and a tv show, but i'm trying to make a point.

You don't need to make Lara almost raped and getting beat up for 3 games to be interesting and to have depth. (which she never did have anyway).

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She doesn't get "almost raped" in 3 games, the hell are you on about? It's implied at the start of the first game when she gets captured and some guy makes a move on her, this never repeats in any shape or form. Rise and Shadow also MASSIVELY reduced the amount of time Lara gets beaten up or hurt by something.

The Uncharted series knows exactly what to do with their characters and isn't a series or multiple ideas clashing together.
There isn't a dissonance between cut-scene Drake and gameplay Drake like there is with Tomb Raider.

It's not against flawed characters. It's about how those flawed characters are written.

You're not really trying to even compare the writing on Tomb Raider with Uncharted...right?

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Uncharted has far worse ludonarrative dissonance than TR. Yes, UC has better quality writing, but the game's general light hearted tone completely clashes with the fact that YOU KILL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE each game lmao
ND even made fun of this by putting a trophy in UC4 referencing this

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

I actually feel like that's been a massive complaint about the Uncharted games forever.

Christ, Uncharted 4 has a trophy titled 'Ludonarrative Dissonance' for killing 1,000 enemies, in tribute to the conversations that Uncharted spawned.

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And yet Tomb Raider did it even worse.

 

[Buttonbasher]

And yet Tomb Raider did it even worse.

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Agree to disagree.

 

[NeoRaider]

You really tried it here OP. But reboot Lara is more than a "whiny" girl. But if you want to see her as that sure you will find some specific scenes that make her look whiny. For example "I don't think i'm that kind of Croft" in the first game. But don't forget that it's a game where Lara is still inexperienced, stranded on the island and where she does her first animal and human kill after being attacked. Rise and Shadow Lara is really not whiny. While she might not smile all the time and she is not as charismatic she is not whiny. She is much more humanized and overall better, more relatable character compared to classic Lara. Also let's not forget the tone of all 3 reboot games, they are all very gloomy and dark.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Agree to disagree.

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Well...yes. Forums are about discussions. We can't always agree :D

 

[Agamon]

She was way sassier in the original games which i'm defending right now, so i don't get your point?

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The original Lara is from a time when having a game with a female protagonist that isn't bewbs with bad dewd personality won't get made. Good riddance to that, I say.

 

[BackwoodsAltar]

She's a horrible person, but I'm not sure if whiny is the right word. Selfish probably works better, she's not likeable by the third game (which is almost beyond parody).

 

[alphacat]

I don't like classic or modern Lara.

I hope they go for a new direction in the next game. Aloy from Horizon is one of my favorite protagonists in gaming. I wish they would take a few ques from Guerilla.

 

[Liam Allen-Miller]

That's not the case here. You're talking to someone that spent god knows how many hours online defending Walter White's wife's character back when Breaking Bad was on because everyone kept calling her "a bitch" and "insufferable" when everything about her made sense. Now that's how you create a flawed and interesting character. That's what's like to have a decent writing team with you.

Maybe i shouldn't be mixing videogame writing and a tv show, but i'm trying to make a point.

You don't need to make Lara almost raped and getting beat up for 3 games to be interesting and to have depth. (which she never did have anyway).

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Oh definitely, Skylar is a much better character than any given Lara Croft, haha. I also do strongly agree about some of the gendered stereotypes they fell into with new Lara, bearing in mind I worked on the first game and played it a ton. I just sort of think the problem is mediocre writing rather than Lara specifically being whiny or some such.

 

[Hyun Sai]

 

[Jaded Alyx]

They had it right with Legend Lara.
#bringherback

 

[tacocat]

OG Lara looked ridiculous but she was bad ass and I loved her attitude. Sure I was a child playing those games but I have fond memories of exploring and enjoying Laras quips. I played the first game of the reboot and Lara's character didn't resonate with me. I just didn't enjoy dark gritty Lara as much as Tomb Raider 2 Lara. They definitely rebooted the series but I hope they move back to the more campy style of the original. Not necessarily her physical design but I liked here attitude and the lighter mood much more in the originals.

 

[KORNdog]

I hated everything about the reboot Lara. I can't stand the voice work for her. Breathy elongated pronunciation in a failed attempt to sound dramatic. Devoid of any evolution across the 3 games. She never reached a point where she seemed to enjoy adventuring. Which is a complete misstep. She never moved an inch towards what her character was. She just started as whiny posh kid and the trilogy ended with her being a whiny posh kid.

And that's just the issues I have with the character.

I don't need a green tank top and skimpy shorts. I don't necessarily even need backflips and duel pistols. I just want a Lara that has that plucky adventurer personality...verging on cocky. I've said it before. But Chloe in lost legacy is a better Lara Croft than "Lara Croft" was across 3 games. It's just sad what they did to the character.

 

[Deleted member 81119]

I'm playing Rise of TR right now and she's not whined once. She's a bit too nice though, a bit bland. But I wouldn't describe her as whiny.

 

[Deleted member 511]

I'm incredibly confused as to what is the issue here. If anything this is one of the best cutscenes in the entire trilogy. It shows Lara's unhealthy obsession and selfishness better than any other scene in the game. I'd go as far as to say it's a shame they didn't commit to THIS Lara through the entire game, instead of backtracking a few hours later.

She is a flawed person... and this cutscene showcases that.

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Agreed. This is one of the....better scenes from Shadow because its actually self-ware about who Lara is.

I think the issue with Reboot Lara is that Rise and Shadow should've just been one game. As they are now, they feel....redundant I guess. Both games are about Lara's unhealthy obsession with chasing leads/trying to be the 'hero'/etc, both games deal with her unresolved issues with her parents' death, both games have Lara playing the savior to some isolated group of people, both games tease Lara finally becoming the 'Tomb Raider' and then it never actually happening, etc, etc. They both hit on a lot of the same exact beats with the writing getting progressively worse with each game on top of that. I think that's the true problem with the reboot trilogy more than anything else.

I found Lara constantly talking about her dad in Rise annoying but if I were to look at Lara herself in these games....she's fine? They play her kind of too serious at times (but that's a reflection of the stories itself being ultra serious tbh) and I wish she had more sass/wit like classic Lara but other than that she's fine. Again, I think the problem is more so the stories she's placed in and the bad writing more so than the character herself being bad but that's just me. I do agree that I'm tired of her fucking parents being the main motivation for what she does and it needs to stop going forward.

 

[dapperbandit]

Yep, "vulnerable" Lara is very trite at this point. The disconnect between her butchering mobs in gameplay and her character portrayal is jarring. There should have been development after the initial reboot.

To put it another way, if you're gonna slaughter endangered wildlife and plunder ancient civilisations and their descendants, at least be a boss about it.

 

[Squarehard]

Or somewhere in the middle.

 

[Deleted member 17388]

OG Lara was basically a Tony Stark-type character, an arrogant billionaire who does as pleases but everything around suffers the consequences. Like, AoD was going to be her Demon in a Bottle-moment.

Since the Jolie movie introduced her parents as a crux of the character, sadly the character became too reliant on her past and stunted from growth. The burden of her past ad nauseam kills any joy she had with exploring (And what players could feel alongside) to put it simply. It was a terrible idea to look at Nolan's Batman trilogy and James Bond movies as some kind of inspiration for this character. Too grounded and no developed enough. They needed to check more superhero-ey stuff, yeah, but more fantastical in tone.

Having said that, I really think they need to scrap a lot of the character to make her work in 2021 going forward.
She can be still an asshole, like in the original games, and make her have fun with raiding tombs should be a must...

However, a white savior in a colonial fantasy setting isn't going to fly as gratuitous as it was in 1996. I really think they should go way back to her original concept of Laura Cruz, a Peruvian explorer...

But, I still think Tomb Raider has bigger problems with the concept of the game itself.
Better protagoinist or not, if it isn't interesting to play it's gonna continue to be an irrelevant game.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Oh definitely, Skylar is a much better character than any given Lara Croft, haha. I also do strongly agree about some of the gendered stereotypes they fell into with new Lara, bearing in mind I worked on the first game and played it a ton. I just sort of think the problem is mediocre writing rather than Lara specifically being whiny or some such.

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Maybe whiny wasn't the best word, but since english isn't my main language (clearly), some things might get a bit lost.
I actually don't think the problem was with the first game. (just how she became a mass murderer out of nowhere)
Most of her insecurities make sense on that island. She's also fighting for survival. She was flawed, but overall, she did it to survive.

After 3 games killing everyone and she's still wondering if she can do that or not...that's the issue. Her insecurities get to a point that don't even make sense anymore after everything she has already done, and having her wondering if she can do it or not for a millionth time...that's what's whiny for me.

I'd say that if she were a man as well.
But maybe you're right, whiny wasn't the best word and it's a shame that overall it seems like my OP was ruined because of a single word.

 

[Thera]

The reboot trilogy is an interesting case study in humanizing a character that almost inherently cannot be humanized.

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They also tried (and completly failed for me) with Kratos too.

 

[ket]

I've played the new reboot games and I don't understand why ppl call her "whiny". Bland? Sure. But she barely complains throughout all three games?

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

OG Lara was basically a Tony Stark-type character, an arrogant billionaire who does as pleases but everything around suffers the consequences. Like, AoD was going to be her Demon in a Bottle-moment.

Since the Jolie movie introduced her parents as a crux of the character, sadly the character became too reliant on her past and stunted from growth. The burden of her past ad nauseam kills any joy she had with exploring (And what players could feel alongside) to put it simply.

Having said that, I really think they need to scrap a lot of the character to make her work in 2021 going forward.
She can be still an asshole, like in the original games, and make her have fun with raiding tombs should be a must...

However, a white savior in a colonial fantasy setting isn't going to fly as gratuitous as it was in 1996. I really think they should go way back to her original concept of Laura Cruz, a Peruvian explorer...

But, I still think Tomb Raider has bigger problems with the concept of the game itself.
Better protagoinist or not, if it isn't interesting to play it's gonna continue to be an irrelevant game.

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Agree with everything you posted.
My OP was only about how her personality has changed through the years.

I agree the game concept will need to change. a rich white english woman blowing stuff up, killing wild animals in their habitat, ruining old civilizations would NEVER fly in 2021.

 

[Good4Squat]

I'm just not really a fan of the voice they chose for her, something about it gets on my nerves a bit. That is totally a me problem though.

 

[Futaleufu]

Original Lara is an adventurer having fun. New Lara is a psycho.

 

[Linus815]

I've played the new reboot games and I don't understand why ppl call her "whiny". Bland? Sure. But she barely complains throughout all three games?

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it's honestly real fucking bizarre. She is only "whiny" in TR13 and mostly at the start. What's not done well is her transformation from survivor to killing machine, it happens far too swiftly, probably due to gameplay. But either way, she pretty much stops complaining after that.

She is far more confident and driven in Rise, and then even more so (to the point of obsession) in Shadow. It's completely untrue that sh edoesn't change between games.

Yeah, the writing in all 3 games have issues, and I wish they went further with her obsession in Shadow than they did, but to say that she is a "whiny kid" in all 3 games like a poster did above is a complete and utter lie.

 

[Meg Cherry]

They also tried (and completly failed for me) with Kratos too.

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The GoW reboot is definitely attempting something similar, but I think it is a little bit better at its goal - because it does attempt to confront the past games directly. It's a continuation of that narrative, and makes the disconnect between the two eras of the character into a point of development for Kratos. It's explaining how a video game character could grow into a believable human. Rather than the situation the Tomb Raider games found themselves in, where they had to explain how a normal human being turns into a video game character.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

I thought she was pretty damn likeable in TR2013. I remember so little about the stories in the two sequels that I won't comment on those. But I really enjoyed her character in 2013.

 

[Hey Please]

Having never played the old Tomb Raider titles and only seen bits of them of YT as well as after having played the first two titles of the reboot, I came away finding Lara unappealing. In the first game there was a massive moment of ludonarrative dissonance when she visibly looks sick after killing the first person in game as part of a cutscene. What follows after is a tour de force Rambo-esuqe expedition without a hint of hesitation or remorse thereafter because that would hinder with "gameplay". People do not work that way and it was a large failing owing to them designing Lara's character progression that way in cutscenes.

As for the second game, I barely remember the details because the story was, to me, utterly unsatisfactory. Lara was shown to be in her element by this game, albeit unremarkable.

Overall, the new Lara felt like a cornucopia of ideas thrown together to perhaps eventually build to her to similar to the OG version whilst humanizing her past. And yet because they refused to manifest evolution of character traits by way of gameplay mechanics, the ludonarrative dissonance and overall bland characterization of the new Lara precipitated to the surface.

And there are ways to show vulnerability in a character and I can live with "whininess" of Lara. But chucking her off high places for impalement is a touch too try hard and looks especially poor when paired with trope laden commentary from devs about "protecting Lara".

 

[Jaded Alyx]

She never reached a point where she seemed to enjoy adventuring.

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This is it for me.

I will always remember early in Tomb Raider Legend, after you jump through a section of spinning blades and other death traps, Lara says "ah I love Bolivia!" like she didn't almost just get cut in half.

 

[Iron Eddie]

More puzzles (that require actual thinking) and platforming please, less gunplay.

 

[Thera]

It's explaining how a video game character could grow into a believable human. Rather than the situation the Tomb Raider games found themselves in, where they had to explain how a normal human being turns into a video game character.

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Both "makes no sense", no matter in what order you do it.

 

[Mediking]

More puzzles (that require actual thinking) and platforming please, less gunplay.

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Shadow actually had some pretty tough puzzles that people had to go on YouTube to figure out...

 

[unknownspectator]

She was a one dimensional sex doll in the old games

She wasn`t really whiny in the new ones

You're wrong

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NuLara had no agency of her own, it was always about fulfilling her dad's wishes. She hardly grew in the trilogy and the whole "you'll want to protect her" in the first one was...yeah.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

Having never played the old Tomb Raider titles and only seen bits of them of YT as well as after having played the first two titles of the reboot, I came away finding Lara unappealing. In the first game there was a massive moment of ludonarrative dissonance when she visibly looks sick after killing the first person in game as part of a cutscene. What follows after is a tour de force Rambo-esuqe expedition without a hint of hesitation or remorse thereafter because that would hinder with "gameplay". People do not work that way and it was a large failing owing to them designing Lara's character progression that way in cutscenes.

As for the second game, I barely remember the details because the story was, to me, utterly unsatisfactory. Lara was shown to be in her element by this game, albeit unremarkable.

Overall, the new Lara felt like a cornucopia of ideas thrown together to perhaps eventually build to her to similar to the OG version whilst humanizing her past. And yet because they refused to manifest evolution of character traits by way of gameplay mechanics, the ludonarrative dissonance and overall bland characterization of the new Lara precipitated to the surface.

And there are ways to show vulnerability in a character and I can live with "whininess" of Lara. But chucking her off high places for impalement is a touch too try hard and looks especially poor when paired with trope laden commentary from devs about "protecting Lara".

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I assume you're talking about Tomb Raider Anniversary, not the original TR1? Yeah that scene in Anniversary was so badly done.

 

[Iron Eddie]

Shadow actually had some pretty tough puzzles that people had to go on YouTube to figure out...

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Were they near the end? I don't recall but I never finished it.