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Honestly, Lies of P ended up being better than many FromSoft games for my tastes
- Thread starter ScOULaris
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It's better than demons souls, dark souls 1, 2 & 3. Not 100% sure about the first dark souls as that was a pretty special game at the time but I'd rather replay Lies of P if I had to play one of them again.
It's better than all of them except Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne (though it's been a while since I've played both of those).
Time has not helped DeS-DS2 and Sekiro doesn't count.
Time has not helped DeS-DS2 and Sekiro doesn't count.
It's great, I enjoyed it so much that I immediately started another run after finishing it, which I usually don't do.
The level design is far from From Soft quality though. Areas are small and formulaic, there's hardly any optional locations and no reasons to explore. And the amount of shortcuts is laughable with levels that small, killing off any tension. This is the part where Lords of the Fallen excels. The perfect new non-From Souls-like would be Lies of P and Lords of the Fallen combinded.
The level design is far from From Soft quality though. Areas are small and formulaic, there's hardly any optional locations and no reasons to explore. And the amount of shortcuts is laughable with levels that small, killing off any tension. This is the part where Lords of the Fallen excels. The perfect new non-From Souls-like would be Lies of P and Lords of the Fallen combinded.
Most of the bosses are good but the level design, and monster animation tells are all pretty mediocre across the board. Especially dealing with tentacle attacks from the Corrupteds. Pair that with enemy tuning feeling weirdly easy to the point where mindlessly overpowering them was usually the play and I didn't stick around.
I ended up dropping it around the caves in Chapter 9. Maybe I'll revisit it as anything other than Dex, but eh.
I ended up dropping it around the caves in Chapter 9. Maybe I'll revisit it as anything other than Dex, but eh.
Lords of the Fallen has better world design than LoP and From games, Bar probably Bloodborne. It even has better MP functionality, Of which LoP doesn't even have any.
No experience is individual lol
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I just can't compare new games in the subgenre with the originals soulsborne because they invented the wheel.
The first Dark Souls is like Street Fighter 2 to me. SF6, Tekken 8 and MK1 can do better objectively in every aspect, but are they actually better than SF2?
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Honestly, I think Lies of P has level design that is at best mediocre. The really stand-out thing in souls games is level design, and for some reason every single game that's trying to be a souls game fails in that regard. It's all bosses, shiny effects, multiphase fights. That's really why lies of P left me wanting. The focus is just misplaced. Narrative and boss design are great, but they don't really make or break games for me.
Even Dark Souls 2 has better level design overall, and it's the weakest souls entry on that front (at least until the DLC; where it becomes superb)
Lunacid shows all of the non-from soulslikes up in level design, it's kinda sad. And it's not even trying to be a Souls game, it's trying to be a King's Field.
Even Dark Souls 2 has better level design overall, and it's the weakest souls entry on that front (at least until the DLC; where it becomes superb)
Lunacid shows all of the non-from soulslikes up in level design, it's kinda sad. And it's not even trying to be a Souls game, it's trying to be a King's Field.
hmmmm... nahhh.
i mean, i have to absolute commend them for their first try being this good, def it's the best souls like other than FromSoft.
but i can't explain but the game don't have that certain something that From has (yes, even dark souls 2 which is a very good game btw).
i mean, i have to absolute commend them for their first try being this good, def it's the best souls like other than FromSoft.
but i can't explain but the game don't have that certain something that From has (yes, even dark souls 2 which is a very good game btw).
I wouldn't say Lies of P is harder than Sekiro just playing it solo but the inclusion of Specters basically guarantee that Lies of P is easier than Sekiro. You can beat most, if not all, of the game with specters, wish cubes and throwables.
besides what you said, i also found the lore, especially the itens descriptions and dialogue to be really lacking in P.
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Yeah, this matches what I was going to say in my reply. Lies of P is the easier of the two, especially if you use spectres on bosses you're struggling with. You can't go wrong with either, but Sekiro is still king for me.
In fact, Sekiro is at the top for me with LoP right behind it.
At the very least I think I'd put it above DS3, which is probably my "least favourite" FromSoft game (still a great game, obviously, which itself speaks to how highly I rate LoP), and I certainly wouldn't judge anyone harshly for putting it over anything else.
I definitely agree about preferring the story/lore being much more straight-forward as an improvement. And they even managed to make a poison swamp that didn't utterly drag!
At the very least, it's definitely up there, which is mighty impressive for a first crack at things. Certainly looking forward to seeing how they continue on.
I definitely agree about preferring the story/lore being much more straight-forward as an improvement. And they even managed to make a poison swamp that didn't utterly drag!
At the very least, it's definitely up there, which is mighty impressive for a first crack at things. Certainly looking forward to seeing how they continue on.
Specters help with most bosses, but there are some bosses where the specter does fuck all. And you can't summon a specter for minibosses btw.
The reason why I think LoP is more difficult is because I have not been able to master the parrying despite making it all the way to chapter 10. With Sekiro I was bossing in the late game.
I certainly don't agree with this. Few games convey as much meaningful information with as much variety as FromSoft games. Just look at Central Yharnam + Old Yharnam and all the ways in which the world teaches you about itself & its history. From the level design, to the enemy composition & their behavior, to the items, NPCs, and their locations, to countless small details & bits of ambient storytelling. Virtually everything has some sort of connective tissue with something(s) else and feeds back into the whole.
They've been doing this since Dark Souls 1. It's a dead/decaying world, sure, but climbing from the sewers & slums of the Undead Burg to the shimmering opulence of Anor Lando paints a stark socio-economic picture of the world that was.
They are*. Best is not the same as most important or more influential.
* I mean, they can be. I'm not really into fighting games.
I certainly don't agree with this. Few games convey as much meaningful information with as much variety as FromSoft games. Just look at Central Yharnam + Old Yharnam and all the ways in which the world teaches you about itself & its history. From the level design, to the enemy composition & their behavior, to the items, NPCs, and their locations, to countless small details & bits of ambient storytelling. Virtually everything has some sort of connective tissue with something(s) else and feeds back into the whole.
They've been doing this since Dark Souls 1. It's a dead/decaying world, sure, but climbing from the sewers & slums of the Undead Burg to the shimmering opulence of Anor Lando paints a stark socio-economic picture of the world that was.
I'm not talking about composition, though. I'm talking about building a believable setting where actual people could've existed. You never spend an instant of time in Anor Londo, and even the castle you do explore doesn't feel like a real place. Everything in the game world exists solely for its gameplay function and the lore is twisted around that. At no point in the entire Dark Souls trilogy did I ever feel like I was exploring a real world, I always felt like I was dreamwalking through something that looks vaguely like a setting but fails to feel like a place where anyone actually ever lived or could reasonably live.
Bloodborne was better at this. The three Dark Souls and even Elden Ring, not so much.
I don't know what you expect a fantasy mega-castle to look like, but I assure you From does their research when it comes to creating absurd but somewhat believable architecture. My friend who is an engineer mentioned this while playing through Armored Core 6 how some of it looked insane but had a lot of thought put into how its built.
Elden Ring is like, not even similar to anything on Earth so im not sure how that works, but it still follows its own internal lore and feels very cohesive despite how imaginative it is. To me, creating something wild like that and having it all feel coherent in that way is art direction at its best.
Which parts of P felt real to you? Surely not the giant tower on a remote island with nonsensical elevators. The furnace which doesn't really make much sense with its engineering? the whole world revolving around compartmentalized hallways that link up through electronic door locks? The entertainment district looks great, because it looks like an imaginative old timey street, but its all set dressing on a fairly linear path.
I liked Lies of P a lot and it was definitely the best non From Soulslike game but it's still far below them in my opinion. Still a great game.
I found their parry windows pretty similar, and Lies of P offers more defensive options if you can't master the parry. Sekiro basically forces you to master it by the end.
And the wish stone that heals your Specter basically turns them into another player, especially once you unlock multiple charges. I didn't bother with them much until NG++ and there I had them take most of the aggro for Manos and stay alive for the entire battle. I view them as an accessibility option for players and think they're a positive for the game. Specters plus the easy environmental difficulty make Lies of P the most accessible Soulslike IMO.
The Dark Souls games and ER are dark/high fantasy settings though. Bloodborne and Lies of P are direct Victorian settings with horror elements too it, BB also has the whole cosmic deities stuff going later in the game where it becomes a fantasy of it's own.
Sekiro is another example (non-fantasy) of them nailing precisely that with the Hirata estate and main Ashina castle as prime examples of what you'd expect of a game based off the Sengoku Era setting.
Even then some areas like early DS3 look liveable enough, Llyendell is another example.
Not the poster but it has nothing to do with being "possible/real" in our world but more with the fact that :
In Dark Souls/Elden Ring, I see no way for people to actually live here, the landmasses we have access to ingame seem to be the entirety of the world or at least the habitable part, what did the people eat or drink ? Where did they get those sustenances ? And how did they construct all of those structures ? Where/How was the economy ?
In Lies of P all of these make sense.
I can see myself living in Krat before the Frenzy, I can't see myself living in any world of a From game.
For me, it doesn't matter one bit but I can still see that From just wants to paint a picture that's beyond human existence/comprehension while Lies of P is painting something closer to what we experience in our existence if that makes sense.
Elden Ring's internal lore feels like it was written on the spot, rather than something that really makes a lot of internal logical sense. I love Elden Ring, don't get me wrong, but there are tons of contradictions, blatant inconsistencies and ideas that just don't hold up to any real scrutiny if you think about them too long. In a lot of ways you can feel that ER's "script", if you want to call it that, is the product of several different drafts that don't all link together properly. Miquella and Malenia in general feel like characters who were much more important in an earlier draft of the script before most of Miquella was entirely cut, for example.
But back to my original point, the thing I'm getting at is that Krat (and to a lesser extent Yharnam) feels like a place where human beings actually could've lived before things went to shit. All of the settings of the Souls games, on the other hand, do not read to me as places. They read as dreams. Everything is based entirely on its gameplay function first, and as soon as you step outside of the bounds of "how does this serve the gameplay", everything starts to fray and become hazy, the same way that a dream does.
Take Elden Ring, for example. Aside from Leyndell (which is fairly small for the capital of the entire continent) and a little bit of the sunken city around Raya Lucaria, we don't really see any population centers. Limgrave, despite being a rather large province, doesn't actually have anywhere where people would live. It's just a castle surrounded by a bunch of cliffs and plains, with a few isolated houses or churches speckled across the landscape. And things are even worse in the "proper" Dark Souls games - Dark Souls 3's "world" feels literally like a confluence of various eras of time all stitched together into a dreamscape and then stacked on top of each other, because it is.
By comparison, I think Neowiz really took pains to make Krat feel like a setting where, if the Puppet Frenzy hadn't occurred, you could see an entire extant population living their lives. It's not just about gameplay function, it's about the way the setting is presented both in its lore and in its visual representation in-universe.
Maybe you felt that way but I didn't really think of that. The corridor and lock layout did the opposite for me, even if the streets look pretty convincingly contemporary(ish, in comparison). re; "where do they eat/drink" Its not like Stormveil or Roundtable hold don't have kitchens, mess halls and strung up meat (animal or sometimes human lol), its just laid out in a way that's interesting and surreal rather than purely logical.
Having facilities that fit the setting is good, necessary even, for presentation and they do a great job of that, but it still felt like a gamey game more than a world just because of the level design.
If it worked for you it worked for you I guess. Being railroaded had the opposite effect. Even the boss arenas felt game logic more than location to me being mostly flat cubic rooms with 1 entrance. I don't think you really need to frequently show barracks and stables in a dark fantasy to "show where people live", especially when half the buildings are either ruins or half submerged in a lake, sinking in lava, or just so massive in perceived scale like Nokron that id be shocked if anyone was going through that place thinking "but where's the beds?". There's a view of the whole of Krat and its surroundings from the top of the cathedral and it makes it look kind of small rather than a whole city, since the closer to reality your setting is the more readily its going to look off to the human mind it can get which can make fantastical locations easier to accept. I think its less anyone really going "but where are the toilets?" and more taking note of Lies of P's well presented world that's intended to be more relatable in time period like any steampunk type setting.
Im pretty sure being thrown into a confusing and scary world that you have to make sense of yourself is like the whole reason their games resonate as hard as they do with so many people. As posted above, the layout of the game world in Dark Souls 1 itself is an imagined caste system they developed with its own story that you're piecing together after its downfall, and im sure not a single person playing it was questioning where the blacksmiths live when the world itself is so atmospheric.
Despite all the claims of how believable a world is or isn't, the NPCs don't really have much of their own agency or variables. Like I said before, just having a NPC help you against a boss because they have beef with said boss makes the characters feel like they have a personality. This is part of the worldbuilding and being a place with purpose as much as anything.
They even fit the asynchronous online elements into the lore, so you always have emergent elements that are unique to your own playthrough.
Watching the echo of a player being killed in a funny way by an upcoming trap is something sorely missed in other games imo.
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It's better than Dark Souls 2 for sure. That game is bad though. The Mario Sunshine of the Souls series.
Combat is better than DS1 but DS1's level design is insanely perfect while Lies of P's is by FAR its weakest aspect. The moment you do your first loop and open the shortcut to the start of the level, you've seen the extent of Lies of P's level design.
Combat is better than DS1 but DS1's level design is insanely perfect while Lies of P's is by FAR its weakest aspect. The moment you do your first loop and open the shortcut to the start of the level, you've seen the extent of Lies of P's level design.
Loved Lies of P, but I think the Souls games are better. That said, by itself, Lies of P combat system is better than the one in Souls games except Sekiro. Indeed, Elden Ring would *greatly* benefit from a parry system similar to Lies of P (and Sekiro).
It might be better than demon souls that's about it though, I don't think the bosses are nearly as good as fromsoft though.
I don't think this is true. I think Sekiro's parry system makes the game's combat WAY too tunnelvision and focuses attack patterns entirely around being good at parrying. Trying to stick that into traditional Souls games would destroy the freeform nature of Souls combat.
When it comes to combat, I'd say Lies of P is better than Nioh, but not as good as FromSoft's best (Bloodborne, Sekiro).
I personally do not gel with the story or general aesthetic. "Gritty fairy tale" has always been meh to me.
I personally do not gel with the story or general aesthetic. "Gritty fairy tale" has always been meh to me.
I'd argue Lies of P proves otherwise. You can have both and let the players decide how to approach combat.
I'll address some points:
World/level design: this is unanimous I think. No way lies of P is better. Let's compare one of the better levels in LoP with one of the worst in the worst DS games (DS2): The Arcade vs. Shrine of Amana. In LoP the Arcade was such a great concept with lots of potential.. but in reality it's really just a bunch of corridors and rooms with window dressing. I was excited to see the wine room but it turned out to be a one room thing with no real idea behind it. Now in Shrine of Amana.. it's still a bad level but the expanse of it is great, the area demands curiosity, the subtle singing, the contrast to the previous levels.. etc. All of those are lacking in LoP.
Sound design: there's some good sounds and ambience but it's lacking and repetitive compared to Soulsborne. Enemy screams are just annoying tbh.
Lore/narrative: The NPCs are legit some of the blandest I saw in gaming. They look nice and the VA is great, but they're mostly shallow. The narrative being explained clearly takes a way a lot of the mystery and intrigue especially when it shouldn't be hard to piece out.
Overall, It's definitely the best Soulslike to date.. but I completely disagree on it being better than Soulsborne games. I got that impression immediately with the first level.
It came very close to touching DS2, but fortunately the DS2 DLCs did a lot of awesome Souls worthy content.
World/level design: this is unanimous I think. No way lies of P is better. Let's compare one of the better levels in LoP with one of the worst in the worst DS games (DS2): The Arcade vs. Shrine of Amana. In LoP the Arcade was such a great concept with lots of potential.. but in reality it's really just a bunch of corridors and rooms with window dressing. I was excited to see the wine room but it turned out to be a one room thing with no real idea behind it. Now in Shrine of Amana.. it's still a bad level but the expanse of it is great, the area demands curiosity, the subtle singing, the contrast to the previous levels.. etc. All of those are lacking in LoP.
Sound design: there's some good sounds and ambience but it's lacking and repetitive compared to Soulsborne. Enemy screams are just annoying tbh.
Lore/narrative: The NPCs are legit some of the blandest I saw in gaming. They look nice and the VA is great, but they're mostly shallow. The narrative being explained clearly takes a way a lot of the mystery and intrigue especially when it shouldn't be hard to piece out.
Overall, It's definitely the best Soulslike to date.. but I completely disagree on it being better than Soulsborne games. I got that impression immediately with the first level.
It came very close to touching DS2, but fortunately the DS2 DLCs did a lot of awesome Souls worthy content.
Nope (for my tastes).
Lol @ people saying this is better than Dark Souls 3 (or any of the DS games). Lies of P, while good and impressive for the dev's first attempt, is way too derivative, lacks memorable level design, only has a handful of great bosses, and doesn't feel as good to play as From Soft's recent entries.
Dark Souls 3, especially, is better in every conceivable way, and it's not even close.
That being said, I am hoping that Lies of P 2 (or whatever they end up making) is a big improvement and a bit more unique.
Oh, also, I played Lies of P via Game Pass on PC, and the performance was fantastic. That's definitely one of the areas where it's better than From's stuff (for me, at least).
Lol @ people saying this is better than Dark Souls 3 (or any of the DS games). Lies of P, while good and impressive for the dev's first attempt, is way too derivative, lacks memorable level design, only has a handful of great bosses, and doesn't feel as good to play as From Soft's recent entries.
Dark Souls 3, especially, is better in every conceivable way, and it's not even close.
That being said, I am hoping that Lies of P 2 (or whatever they end up making) is a big improvement and a bit more unique.
Oh, also, I played Lies of P via Game Pass on PC, and the performance was fantastic. That's definitely one of the areas where it's better than From's stuff (for me, at least).
It's really good and ranked high in my GOTY list, but I'm getting mildly annoyed at the hyperbole lately (mostly because I don't know why this game gets all the attention where more original takes on the formula get none lol).
And no, it's not better than From's games, the exploration is almost non-existent and the level design is generally fairly weak (serviceable, but not much more) and character customization is very limited.
And where the game does diverge from the formula, it shows its cracks. Like there's this cool idea idea like mixing and matching weapon parts... that is then completely undermined by having OP boss weapons. The lie/humanity system is also a neat idea but ultimately rather undercooked. And weird/useless systems like the cube and gold coin fruit etc.
Basically the game is at its best when imitating all the things of the From games, and it's highly polished and well-made, but zero chance I'd rank it higher than any of From's.
And no, it's not better than From's games, the exploration is almost non-existent and the level design is generally fairly weak (serviceable, but not much more) and character customization is very limited.
And where the game does diverge from the formula, it shows its cracks. Like there's this cool idea idea like mixing and matching weapon parts... that is then completely undermined by having OP boss weapons. The lie/humanity system is also a neat idea but ultimately rather undercooked. And weird/useless systems like the cube and gold coin fruit etc.
Basically the game is at its best when imitating all the things of the From games, and it's highly polished and well-made, but zero chance I'd rank it higher than any of From's.
Like this kind of take physically hurts my soul, what the actual fuck
Faith in Era Restored
Okay but have you considered that maybe Fromsofts time in the sun is over and they should instead just license their IP to Neowiz? /s
Lies of P just flows so much better than most From games, the way the levels unspool and fold back in with smartly placed shortcuts and checkpoints. You have constant aha moments and feelings of task mastery scouring each nook and cranny. Also, with many From games, I feel like I just end up tightly circle-strafing most of the bosses, but the blocking/parrying in Lies and the Legion arts (grappling over enemies, the Aegis counters, etc) felt more varied both in offense and defense. And just about everything you collect is not only useful, but immediately understandable in its utility.
What's especially impressive is this is their first outing. Can you even imagine how amazing the sequel will be now that they have so much of the groundwork and aesthetic and world established, not to mention they found an audience and GotY contender acclaim? The team must be feeling great morale, offering a refreshing take on the From formula with an even more engaging world and resonant characters.
What's especially impressive is this is their first outing. Can you even imagine how amazing the sequel will be now that they have so much of the groundwork and aesthetic and world established, not to mention they found an audience and GotY contender acclaim? The team must be feeling great morale, offering a refreshing take on the From formula with an even more engaging world and resonant characters.
Yeah, this is mostly how I feel. I haven't beaten it yet (am right before the ending, I think) but the more of it I play the more the "better than From" reviews are hard for me to understand. I was very bullish on it out the gate and up through the first 'real' boss, but everything since then has felt like Midjourney Souls—undifferentiated, grey (literally and figuratively), no peaks or valleys, nothing to see, no feeling of discovery, no substantial atmosphere or tone, very little enemy variety. Every minute of the game feels like every other minute.
I think it has some great boss encounter design, and that the parry system is generally well-implemented and fleshed out on. It probably is the best non-From 3D soulslike thing I've played in execution, but it absolutely does not have the From juice.
The level design is the stuff that really, really sinks it for me. Not just how dreary and meaningless everything is, but how often they recycle the same couple From tricks—especially ambushes and looping little shortcuts. It feels a little like someone designing a game off their memory of a From game. Like, we remember Souls ambushes and shortcuts because they were affecting and memorable, but they weren't actually a substantial part of the experience of playing those games in the moment. Every little level segment in P having 3 looping shortcuts and 12 enemies busting out of walls/dropping from tree branches/climbing from ledges/etc. is so exhausting and boring.
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You might not agree with my sentiments, but that doesn't make them hyperbolic. I think I did an okay job outlining why Lies of P is better than many (but not all) FromSoft games for my preferences.
It is derivative, yes, but the final result is executed so well that I enjoyed it more than probably about half of FromSoft's output. I'd really only put Sekiro and maybe DS3 slightly above it.
to be honest, Armored Core 6 (a From game but not necessarily a Souls game) has risen to be a close tie, or really a close second, with Elden Ring as my favorite From game and I've been playing since the first Demon's Souls on the PS3 (which I did not like). I may have just hit a difficulty wall (with janky platforming not combat, in late chapter 4) but so far Lies of P would be beneath those but a good contender for third.
Really confused by all the level design talk. Lies of P really has a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses of From level design (aforementioned platforming without a control/game feel appropriate for it; monster closets; trial and error puzzles, etc.) In any case, I was scared off of Seikiro because it sounded too hard even by From standards but hearing all the comparisons is making me think I skipped potentially another top From/Souls experience for me.
Really confused by all the level design talk. Lies of P really has a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses of From level design (aforementioned platforming without a control/game feel appropriate for it; monster closets; trial and error puzzles, etc.) In any case, I was scared off of Seikiro because it sounded too hard even by From standards but hearing all the comparisons is making me think I skipped potentially another top From/Souls experience for me.
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Definitely give Sekiro a shot. It's not only my favorite FromSoft game but also the easiest IMO. That last bit is highly subjective, of course.
Sekiro is amazing. I certainly don't think its the easiest, but I think if you can beat 'Lies of P' bosses then you should be able to manage Sekiro. I think Sekiro has the best bosses of any game, but I tend the prefer the more humanoid boss types and Sekiro has more of that than monster or colossus type of bosses.
FWIW, I do think people have a false impression of many earlier From game bosses. DeS, DS, and DSII especially when you revisit you tend to recognize that those bosses are much simpler in design and complexity then what From has done since.
Lies of P bosses in my mind are on a comparable level to more modern From games, which is pretty astonishing given its their first attempt.
Also, Lies of P bosses aren't finished. I made the same point for Elden Ring the other day, but several From games owe a lot of their boss reputation to DLC (especially Bloodborne) or at least were bolstered by DLC.
Lies of P bosses in my mind are on a comparable level to more modern From games, which is pretty astonishing given its their first attempt.
Also, Lies of P bosses aren't finished. I made the same point for Elden Ring the other day, but several From games owe a lot of their boss reputation to DLC (especially Bloodborne) or at least were bolstered by DLC.