Hideo Kojima on Joker: Folie à Deux: "Over the next 10 to 20 years, this films reputation will likely change"

[poptire]

Posted in the official Joker 2 thread, but my opinion shifted on it pretty quickly. I wasn't a huge fan leaving the theater, but then when I thought about how it is a 2 hour setup to just dump all over Incel Joker and his fickle fans I realized it was kind of amazing. Granted, it is a long and bland movie overall, but the punchline. I dunno, it just works for me.

 

[Donepalace]

I'll be honest. I had ZERO interest in ever watching the first Joker and still haven't to this day. But when I saw how much people hated this one and looked into why I found two answers "one, it's a musical" and "two, it's plot seems to be a direct attack on the first film's fans". I find both of these things amusingly interesting and it kinda makes me want to check it out one day. Based on that alone I can see this film finding a cult fanbase down the road, so maybe he's right.

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I'm no fan of this franchise but the idea that only angry loner incel types loved the first movie is kinda stupid , people can be fans of the first movie and be very well adjusted, happy individuals who just like seeing the carnage and mayhem ensued onscreen. To completely flip that is kinda silly , it's like a Friday the 13th sequel where Jason just wanders around and takes in the view instead of killing , which is what people want and pay for

 

[MadDogTannen]

No one will even remember it by then

 

[Besiktas]

I said exact same thing. People have pleb taste usually, most movies that were frowned upon on release later became cult classic. This movie has a lot of reedeming qualities unlike morbius or whatever other comic flop movies.

Joker 2 posts the worst second weekend drop of any comic book movie

I seriously think this movie will be cult classic that people judged too harshly at release. It does what it wanna do very good , people are just mad that it isn't joker 2 electric boogalao or people already hated joker 1 without seeing it. It's about Arthur dealing with joker persona and how...

www.resetera.com

I seriously think this movie will be cult classic that people judged too harshly at release.
It does what it wanna do very good , people are just mad that it isn't joker 2 electric boogalao or people already hated joker 1 without seeing it.

It's about Arthur dealing with joker persona and how troubled person he is, how that fame etc was never about him but this shadow persona. It's shot well, has great music and acting it. I don't get what's so bad about it

Marvels,morbius,thor4,etc are all worse than this

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[CloudWolf]

I'll be honest. I had ZERO interest in ever watching the first Joker and still haven't to this day. But when I saw how much people hated this one and looked into why I found two answers "one, it's a musical" and "two, it's plot seems to be a direct attack on the first film's fans". I find both of these things amusingly interesting and it kinda makes me want to check it out one day. Based on that alone I can see this film finding a cult fanbase down the road, so maybe he's right.

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Both are untrue as to why people en masse dislike this movie. It's just a supremely dull movie. Nothing interesting happens the entire film, it's basically just regurgitating a question that was already asked and answered in the previous film. The fact that the movie has no thesis of its own is made even clearer by the fact that the movie constantly reminds you of what happened in the first movie. Like, the entire second act of the film basically only consists of characters from the previous movie and new characters telling Arthur and the audience stuff that happened in the first movie.

The songs are also just incredibly dull and pointless. Instead of the songs being vital to the narrative being told (like, you know, a musical) they feel like a tacked on inclusion that's only there because Lady Gaga agreed to be in the movie and you can't have a movie with Lady Gaga where she doesn't sing. Nothing communicated in the songs isn't also simply communicated through dialogue.

It's only in the final 10 minutes of the movie that finally something interesting happens, but it's pretty much immediately undone.

And yeah, the movie deliberately goes out of its way to troll the fans of the original (and even explicitly says it does in one of the fantasy sequences), but unlike other movies that do this (Gremlins 2, Matrix Resurrections), there's nothing interesting going on behind it. It's a vapid movie made by vapid people for no one.

I was not a fan of the first movie (in fact, I think that movie is also bad), but at least it had ideas. Folie a Deux has nothing.

 

[The Quentulated Mox]

The thing that seems most likely to me is that people will stop remembering batman characters

 

[Hamchan]

I can sorta see why Tarantino and Kojima like it, because as creators themselves they probably love the meta "fuck you" to the studio, the audience, the fanatic fans, basically everyone. They can relate to that feeling the most..

For everyone else though, it's just a bad movie.

I actually thought the first half of the movie seemed decent but by the end it all felt quite pointless, depressing and boring.

Maybe it'll be the next Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me where everyone acknowledges it as a masterpiece, who can tell.

 

[Cheesebu]

I honestly would have preferred an actual musical over the jukebox musical we got. And Joaquin's singing was just horrific. I understand that it was a choice, I get that. That didn't make it easier to sit through.

In 20 years, fans of the character will still mock the film for being a boring piece of shit that wasted a lot of public interest in his story. The idea that it was a fatal blow to some nebulous unknown community of incels is frankly ridiculous and weapons grade cringe. Nobody is rethinking their belief system on account of you making a 200 million dollar flop. If anything you've given them the ammunition and the win they were craving. Grats I guess.

 

[Nyaghoggua]

Out of the 2hr20 runtime, 1hr50 of it is good and the jukebox musical crap was just a complete letdown. For that kind of budget they could've done wholly original songs by the greatest songwriters on Broadway and it would've kicked ass.

 

[AmAsuT]

I think the idea of something getting a cult following few years down the line is dead tbh.

There is so much content coming out each day that people don't get to think much about stuff way past their release. Even things that got labeled as "the best ..." just a few years ago are rarely mentioned anymore because of how readily available new content is.

So I disagree but I don't think it's that bad of a movie in the first place it's an ok 6 - 7 out of ten imo.

 

[Ashes of Dreams]

I'm no fan of this franchise but the idea that only angry loner incel types loved the first movie is kinda stupid , people can be fans of the first movie and be very well adjusted, happy individuals who just like seeing the carnage and mayhem ensued onscreen. To completely flip that is kinda silly , it's like a Friday the 13th sequel where Jason just wanders around and takes in the view instead of killing , which is what people want and pay for

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I said literally nothing about "angry loner incel types". What are you talking about?

 

[DarthMasta]

Once people drop the expectations that Arthur Fleck is THE Joker, I'm sure they'll be able to watch the movie in a different way, but I dunno if it'll ever be seen as this great movie.

 

[oni_saru]

Kojima liked it?? Were we all wrong???

Nah, doubt I will ever enjoy this movie I'm afraid. And I usually find myself agreeing with Kojima's tastes.


Definitely disagree with that.

Kojima is at almost 4 million followers on twitter, 3.5 million followers on Instagram, and his movie reactions routinely get over a million views.

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Yeah i know someone who started following Kojima cuz of his movie comments.

Mans knows his movies and people intrigued by his reviews

 

[Johnzyboi]

Is he a Gaga Stan?

 

[Kazuhira]

I've enjoyed it quite a bit, i don't think i've ever watched a movie that calls out my own hypocrisy as a viewer.
I liked the message of the first movie and yet i wanted a power trip in this one, which meant Arthur getting worse.
Maybe internet made me forget what was this all about after 5 years of Joaquin Joker looking cool.

 

[Volken]

I went in with the expectation of mainly judging the non-musical parts because I don't like musicals and knew I would be fast-forwarding that portion of it in Joker 2 (which I mostly did do).

So just on the non-musical parts and judging it as a conclusion to the first film, I found it to be very solid and satisfying. It was definitely on my mind the next day on my way to work.

Just hope there is a fan edit where the musical stuff is mostly taken out, or they make a non-musical director's cut or whatever.

 

[Lotus]

I said literally nothing about "angry loner incel types". What are you talking about?

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You didn't say it, but I don't blame them for interpreting it like that. I haven't watched it either, but the notion of this movie attacking fans of the first movie is undeniably an odd thing for it to do when it's not like the fandom for it was particularly toxic or anything as far as I know. Especially after that whole overblown incel panic stuff... And people who wanted him to become the "real" Joker weren't likely fond of the first movie to begin with.

Stuff like The Rise of Skywalker or Matrix Resurrections, I get how they came to be in terms of pissing off people. Can't say the same thing for Joker 2...

 

[THEVOID]

I think the idea of something getting a cult following few years down the line is dead tbh.

There is so much content coming out each day that people don't get to think much about stuff way past their release. Even things that got labeled as "the best ..." just a few years ago are rarely mentioned anymore because of how readily available new content is.

So I disagree but I don't think it's that bad of a movie in the first place it's an ok 6 - 7 out of ten imo.

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Nah, it happens. Things are getting rediscovered today that was released 30-40 years ago. Sometimes a movie ages incredibly well and gets reevaluated 10-15 years later. Sometimes it was ahead of its time. That will never stop.

I'm not saying that will happen here but who knows?

 

[Dot-N-Run]

I mean he's shown a bit of a knack for writing things ahead of the times himself, so you never know.

 

[RadioHeadAche]

Has Kojima ever disliked a movie? No matter what he watches he gives it some praise.

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if he doesn't like a movie, he just posts that he watched it, together with a selfie, with no further commentary. it happens quite regularly

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Or, at least for Matrix 4, doesn't say anything at all. Which was interesting considering all his pre-release posts about it.

 

[Patriiick]

I'll have forgotten it just like I've forgotten every MGS story.

 

[CloudWolf]

Or, at least for Matrix 4, doesn't say anything at all. Which was interesting considering all his pre-release posts about it.

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It's doubly interesting that he does like Joker 2 then, because The Matrix Resurrections basically does a similar thing as Joker 2 (only with actual filmmaking talent behind the camera) and that's a movie that I can actually see getting a reappraisal years down the road as that seems to happen with most Wachowski films.

 

[Ashes of Dreams]

You didn't say it, but I don't blame them for interpreting it like that. I haven't watched it either, but the notion of this movie attacking fans of the first movie is undeniably an odd thing for it to do when it's not like the fandom for it was particularly toxic or anything as far as I know. Especially after that whole overblown incel panic stuff... And people who wanted him to become the "real" Joker weren't likely fond of the first movie to begin with.

Stuff like The Rise of Skywalker or Matrix Resurrections, I get how they came to be in terms of pissing off people. Can't say the same thing for Joker 2...

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I'm just saying what I saw when I looked up the movie and why it was controversial with fans of the first film.
I'm making no comments on said fans of the first film.

This paragraph is literally on the wikipedia page for this movie:

"Critics noted that the film was a work of metafiction designed to intentionally antagonize audiences who were fans of the first film. Rather than capitulating to expectations of the predecessor's fanbase that Arthur would fully embrace his Joker persona and go on to become Batman's archenemy, the film serves to rebuke those who idolized the character of the Joker. As a deliberate anti-audience effort, the film pushes against the notion of fan service, instead creating a self-aware narrative that is a commentary on its own existence. The film features off-key musical sequences that contrast with fan expectations following the original film, during one such scene Joker acknowledges, "I don't think we're giving the people what they want". Lee Quinzel can be viewed as a stand-in for audiences who were fans of the first film, with her comments about becoming obsessed with Joker after having seen a TV movie based on his life reflecting the audience. Lee represents an affluent fan who desires the anarchy and exotic thrill Joker represents, and like the audience, is upset and disappointed when Arthur fails to live up to his Joker identity."

It's very possible that's making the movie sound more interesting than it is. But all I'm saying is that intrigues me way more than if it had been played straight as "here's more Joker". Plus I like musicals so that doesn't inherently bother me either. lol

 

[Fabs]

As someone who didn't like the first, or thought it was fine but this revelation everyone made it out to be, I liked this. Didn't love it. But it a very bold take on the fans of the first one. Reminds me of Scream (2022) in some ways without the direct meta commentary . Maybe because it's Todd Phillips a better director would have landed the plane better but I literally smiled at the ending. Good not great but the ideas are there just missed the mark. I know there's a book but I wish Fincher could have done this with fight club 2.

 

[Xeteh]

You'll be ashamed of your words and deeds.

 

[CloudWolf]

I'm just saying what I saw when I looked up the movie and why it was controversial with fans of the first film.
I'm making no comments on said fans of the first film.

This paragraph is literally on the wikipedia page for this movie:

"Critics noted that the film was a work of metafiction designed to intentionally antagonize audiences who were fans of the first film. Rather than capitulating to expectations of the predecessor's fanbase that Arthur would fully embrace his Joker persona and go on to become Batman's archenemy, the film serves to rebuke those who idolized the character of the Joker. As a deliberate anti-audience effort, the film pushes against the notion of fan service, instead creating a self-aware narrative that is a commentary on its own existence. The film features off-key musical sequences that contrast with fan expectations following the original film, during one such scene Joker acknowledges, "I don't think we're giving the people what they want". Lee Quinzel can be viewed as a stand-in for audiences who were fans of the first film, with her comments about becoming obsessed with Joker after having seen a TV movie based on his life reflecting the audience. Lee represents an affluent fan who desires the anarchy and exotic thrill Joker represents, and like the audience, is upset and disappointed when Arthur fails to live up to his Joker identity."

It's very possible that's making the movie sound more interesting than it is. But all I'm saying is that intrigues me way more than if it had been played straight as "here's more Joker". Plus I like musicals so that doesn't inherently bother me either. lol

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It does do all that, but it does it in a very boring way.

It's not as rebellious as a Gremlins 2 and not as biting as a The Matrix Resurrections. It's just... dull.

 

[Servbot24]

People are apologetic to nearly every shitty comic book movie so yeah probably

 

[Ashes of Dreams]

It does do all that, but it does it in a very boring way.

It's not as rebellious as a Gremlins 2 and not as biting as a The Matrix Resurrections. It's just... dull.

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I'll have to watch it one day to see for myself. But given I probably wouldn't have even bothered if it had been a movie that most people liked, I can see why someone like Kojima would say what he said. Films like this will eventually find their audience, most likely.

 

[nded]

I think there will be people who reevaluate their initial reactions and come to appreciate its metafictional qualities but would never actually sit down to watch it again.

 

[SasaBassa]

This is what happens when you let someone tell the future in gd mgs2 but miss on everything else

 

[Keiriks]

I had this thought after seeing it as well tbh. I think it'll be a cult... maybe not classic but a cult something in time.

 

[Tace]

It'll have its fans(as does every movie) but an en masse reappraisal of the film? Not happening.

 

[thisismadness]

I dont think it will change entirely.. but I do think overall sentiment will soften because it feels like theres such an exaggerated amount of hate.

 

[ap_2]

So it will go from being a flop and a joke to just being a flop.
Probably better than the first one but that's not a high bar to clear.

 

[GamerEDM]

uh oh, hopefully this doesn't inspire Kojima next game

 

[Eidan]

I'm checking it out on election day.

 

[Galkinator]

It will still be a piece of shit in 10-20 years

 

[nonoriri]

I haven't seen it but it's so weird conceptually I could see it happening. Films like that can find cult followings.

 

[Sacco e Vanzetti]

I haven't seen the film yet, but I agree with Luca Guadagnino and Tilda Swinton on this. It wouldn't be the first time a film gets re-evaluated with time.

@3:30

View: https://streamable.com/9sgk4s

 

[Modest_Modsoul]

I think Kojima hated Cowboy Bebop Netflix, lol.

Don't remember what he Tweets about it tho...

 

[The Silver]

It's an interesting film in that this type of metafiction and fuck you to the fans and studios pretty much never happens for big studio blockbusters.

It'll always be a bad musical but we'll probably never see anything like it again unless another director just flat out lies to the studio about what kind of film they're making

 

[Masterz1337]

The ideas and story wasn't the issue imo (even if the ending was meh), it's the execution and how everything was done, the dialogues, how things were presented, and so on...

Even the musical aspect that i usually love and that would have elevated it with great original music was bad here

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Pretty much this, I think I will always appreciate the questions the film raised and how it asks you to question what you watched like the first, it just wasn't as an enjoyable experience to watch as the first.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

I said exact same thing. People have pleb taste usually, most movies that were frowned upon on release later became cult classic. This movie has a lot of reedeming qualities unlike morbius or whatever other comic flop movies.

Joker 2 posts the worst second weekend drop of any comic book movie

I seriously think this movie will be cult classic that people judged too harshly at release. It does what it wanna do very good , people are just mad that it isn't joker 2 electric boogalao or people already hated joker 1 without seeing it. It's about Arthur dealing with joker persona and how...

www.resetera.com

Click to shrink...

I'm curious to see it now. Should be on streaming soon

Fandom is such a funny thing. The hateposting at this point is pushing it into infamy territory.

 

[KarmaCow]

In a few years some youtuber will put out some 7 hour long video trying to say that the movie was misunderstood and they were smart enough to get what was plainly obvious to everyone else.

 

[JigglesBunny]

Nah. It's not so transgressive it's cool, it's so desperate to be transgressive that it waters itself down into being absolutely nothing but an aimless waste of time. Joker was bad because it was a Scorsese pastiche made by a pretentious hack. Joker 2 is bad because it's a faux-transgressive rebuke of that pastiche by a guy who thought he was actually too good for his own hack movie.

Anyone trying to give it kudos over its apparent audacity is basically giving a participation trophy to the kid who didn't even show up to the tournament.

 

[Cinnamon]

I actually agree with Kojima and Tarantino.

It's a unique movie that stands out from typical comic book films, regardless of whether it's good or bad. While many comic book movies get 'fresh' ratings on Rotten Tomatoes, some of them regurgitate the same formula and template and they feel indistinguishable from each other. Some of these comic book films play it too safe and don't want to take any crazy risks or big swings. Even if you think it's a piece of shit, Joker 2 is a more memorable movie than something, like, "Ant Man and the Wasp" .

 

[mbpm]

I'm sure, but I've also disliked better movies for less reason than this one so it won't affect my outlook.

It's a movie that is equivalent to channel surfing in the 90s

 

[Patriiick]

In a few years some youtuber will put out some 7 hour long video trying to say that the movie was misunderstood and they were smart enough to get what was plainly obvious to everyone else.

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I'm surprised we haven't had a thread along those lines on here already.

 

[Dice]

Stranger movies have made it happen.

... I kinda doubt it with a hero movie though (even an anti-hero one).

 

[mbpm]

Pretty much this, I think I will always appreciate the questions the film raised and how it asks you to question what you watched like the first, it just wasn't as an enjoyable experience to watch as the first.

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I mean, the thing for me is, everybody who was thinking already questioned it week one the movie came out. I was seeing the same critiques the movie was making in YouTube comments early on in the movie's success. There's nothing new in this movie.