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Has the reception to Endgame proven TLJ critics right?
- Thread starter Puck Beaverton
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You do understand how military command structure works right?
Also they did tell people that there was a plan lol. Holdo tells Poe as much multiple times. Poe just throws a fit because he wasn't told the specifics, even though he wasn't needed for the actual execution of the plan.
What? How are you coming to this conclusion? How would pretty much everyone know that there was an old base that they would evacuate to on transports that had stealth technology (that wasn't standard)?
Literally all some people would know is that there was a plan, and that it involved getting the transports ready.
And I know for a fact that if I was in a military organisation and recently demoted I totally would demand that my general tells me the details of his plan during a crisis.
Well except for said leader being a general famous enough to have a reputation precede her, and being told that a plan was being executed.
Or you know, she did the first half of that which was "hey there's a plan, you hang tight because the plan doesn't need an x-wing pilot" and Poe could have just sat down and known his place?
So you expect a General to completely trust a total stranger that was also literally just demoted for insubordination?
Fingers slipped, will be editing here because no you are OBJECTIVELY wrong.
Both literally have arcs lol. This is by your own words:
Well that an all the times they both tell him what it means to be a leader, having faith in taking orders, trusting others, and understanding that big risks aren't always work it and don't always work out.
What does this even mean??
Finn literally goes from only caring about Rey and risking his life for her, to being willing to die for the resistance and it's cause lol.
So nope it's not lol.
I won't insert myself into your argument other than to add I had to do a double take at this line. I think it's the first time I've heard this one and now I'm pretty sure I've reached the terminal line of TLJ criticism. Imagine telling someone "why don't you trust me? you don't even know me!"
I know you followed it up with the bit about Leia and Holdo being friends. It's fine if you don't like Holdo's explicit reason for not telling Poe (because he was reckless and dangerous, and recently demoted for doing his own thing and not following the plan), but I don't think you have much of an objective leg to stand on here. IMO her mistake was being too trust of him to stick to his post and not fuck it up anyway, but that isn't forced conflict--it's a direct result of his actions and demonstrated behavior. Honestly the rest of your criticism kinda fall apart on that basis. He isn't the tool she needs right now, and she has no obligation to waste her time to his benefit.
The thing the SW sequels could have learned from Endgame (and the MCU as a whole) is that if you plan to make a cinematic universe you better have people with an overarching plan at the center of it.
TLJ while being great I felt was struggling with an identity crisis. The new direction may pay off in the future.
All Marvel movies felt like fun super hero movies that were aware of what they are. Endgame Is a success because of the consistent quality of all the previous films and giving its audience a spectacle for a final act.
All Marvel movies felt like fun super hero movies that were aware of what they are. Endgame Is a success because of the consistent quality of all the previous films and giving its audience a spectacle for a final act.
Wait you are saying all people who dislike last Jedi are nazi babies
Imagine defending a silly, sci-fi movie's shitty writing with 'You do understand how military command structure works right?'
Imagine not actually understanding basic concepts while ignoring things that actively happen in the movie lol.
And I suppose not everyone can back up their points as eloquently as:
Especially when my comment further specifies that because he wasn't needed for the execution of the plan, there was literally no reason he needed to be provided more information, since him having that information would not affect the execution of the plan.
Kinda where I'm at. My opinion on TLJ is finding it kinda 'eh' since I enjoyed half of it and not really enjoying the other half. I feel Rian would do a lot better in his own trilogy rather than in the middle part of another.
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This is unfair and just kinda rudely dismissive when said defense is in direct response to a criticism stemming from similar logic.
That is, in fact, what they're saying. Which is of course so ludicrous as to be beneath contempt.
No, people might think TLJ had to subvert expectations because its story had a different risk of repeating what came before, being part of a reboot.
I wonder what are they referring to? seems like mostly everyone I know loved it. Except a couple of my DC fanboy friends of course but they didn't even watched it.
Yeah thats quite frankly absurd. No way in hell is anything in this movie close to being as divisive as TLJ was I have no idea why they thought that would be the case.
How would they even know? The general public has had access to the movie for barely 48 hours now, and probably not at all at the time of their review.
You know what, OP? You're right. For two and half years, I've thought that I liked this movie. But now, after seeing what other people think about a completely different movie in a completely different franchise, it's clear to me that I've always hated that movie. Thanks for helping me come to this realization.
No. I don't understand this thread. I like TLJ a bunch. I don't have high expectations for Endgame, although I'll probably enjoy it well enough. Some people just have different tastes in movies. The entire discussion around TLJ (and this is true for the people I agree with too) seems to stem from some existential crisis about their not being a consensus around it. It's the one blockbuster movie that isn't agreed upon to be good or bad, with any conflicting opinions being marked as outliers. With TLJ, there are no outliers. All takes are valid. And that concept seems to be terrifying for some people. It's why so much of the conversation boils down to stuff like the logic of the film or box office numbers. It's a grasp at some sort of objectivity. But even if the movie was "proven" illogical and was a historical failure at the box office, I'd still fucking love it. Discussing art is a wonderful thing, but debating it like this is fucking pointless.
This thread is stupid, as are 98% of the conversations about this great movie.
And it is a GREAT fucking movie.
No. I don't understand this thread. I like TLJ a bunch. I don't have high expectations for Endgame, although I'll probably enjoy it well enough. Some people just have different tastes in movies. The entire discussion around TLJ (and this is true for the people I agree with too) seems to stem from some existential crisis about their not being a consensus around it. It's the one blockbuster movie that isn't agreed upon to be good or bad, with any conflicting opinions being marked as outliers. With TLJ, there are no outliers. All takes are valid. And that concept seems to be terrifying for some people. It's why so much of the conversation boils down to stuff like the logic of the film or box office numbers. It's a grasp at some sort of objectivity. But even if the movie was "proven" illogical and was a historical failure at the box office, I'd still fucking love it. Discussing art is a wonderful thing, but debating it like this is fucking pointless.
This thread is stupid, as are 98% of the conversations about this great movie.
And it is a GREAT fucking movie.
Yeah I don't know. I remember how I felt after TLJ and I remember going online and seeing the hugely divided reaction. It was divisive from the start. None of that exists for End Game at all. reddit, social media, etc, is pretty much nothing but adoration and praise.
The Last Jedi is not a critically decisive film though (I don't care about the admitted review bombed user score on RT). Also you need only to scratch the surface and some of the same characters are frothing at the mouth over certain scenes in Endgame as they were over TLJ. Fuck them.
Pretty much this, but with much more hyperbole.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ca...s-endgame-open-spoilers.114006/#post-20264509
I wonder what would happen if I could combine Nintendo fandom craziness with The Last Jedi into one thread...
I'm the Nintendo fandom craziness
I want no part of this TLJ nonsense
If we just keep hammering at it for 2 years eventually these Star Wars nerds will admit their movie sucks.
For me the issues with TLJ were not "not enough fan service" its way more nuanced than that. I loved some decisions rian made, like reys parents being no one, meaning the force aplies to everyone, or the idea that Luke wanted the jedi to end, etc. But other things were baffling to me, on a script level, like the slowest chase in the galaxy, weponizing hyperdrive, etc. No amount of scenes of leia and han and luke together would have fixed the good or bad parts in my opinion. I wish we could have a nuanced opinion instead of automatically labeling each other based on one opinion only.
Endgame worked because the script mainly made sense, not because of any specific fan service they added. That movei was also not perfect.
Endgame worked because the script mainly made sense, not because of any specific fan service they added. That movei was also not perfect.
The fact that we're still arguing about The Last Jedi proves... something. I'm not sure what it proves, exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's exactly what Rian Johnson was hoping for.
You know what? I'm not a fan of TLJ, and yet I 100% agree with everything in this post. I think that's what puts such a bad taste in my mouth about all of these conversations. It's not about what elements make a film work or not work, or sharing what personal elements resonated with you or isolated you, or even really along asking whether the film successfully accomplished its goals and used the medium well to do that. It's all about whether the film is Good or Bad, and why if you disagree with this opinion, your opinion is irrelevant, and you only believe your wrong opinion because you are a [PEJORATIVE STEREOTYPE], otherwise you would agree with everyone else on the matter. It's this obsession to have the score "settled" for one petty reason or another.
I feel like the only reason Endgame doesn't fall under those same circumstances is simply because it's a franchise that's never really had an identity to be at war with. Star Wars at this point is an IP kind of defined by its own internal turmoil, and the way it's constantly changed, for better or for worse, since the 80's. The MCU has always had a very singular vision, and while not every adaption from the comics has been 100% well received, each decision has been so in line with the MCU's overall "feel", for better or for worse, that people have just sort of accepted this is how Marvel Studios is, and it's very unlikely to change anytime soon, or ever. There's no "need" to prove that my MCU is better than your MCU, in the same way that Star Wars is always split between the OT and the PT and the EU and the ST (which is also in part split between people who prefer Abram's take over Johnson's take and vice versa).
I think film criticism is fine and great, but when it becomes this sort of holy war it just becomes so tired.
If people have a criticism or compliment regarding TLJ, then fucking make a case regarding the film. Make a billion threads. Go for it.
However, debates and analysis over whether fans are justified in enjoying a movie (or not) is fucking crrraaaaaazzzzzyyyy.
However, debates and analysis over whether fans are justified in enjoying a movie (or not) is fucking crrraaaaaazzzzzyyyy.
No, if anything it proves TLJ fans right. It takes the story in a different direction and subverts expectations.
You shouldn't let it sway you away from your truth, but I was responding to your post regarding there always being a "catch" to disliking TLJ. The nazi's totally fucked that boat. I think you do need to be cognizant of that when speaking to your opinion if you also dislike it. Look at the tone deaf "I refuse" video James Rolfe did in response to the all female Ghostbusters for what happens when you ignore (accidentally or intentionally) larger societal context.
I didn't call you all nazi's, chill out. I said that was a perception that you have to deal with. Which was correct, as was proven in this very thread.
I wouldn't define Endgame playing it safe. Marvel figured out with careful planning and with the right people involved for 10 years on how to design a legacy. I was telling my friend yesterday that watching Endgame reminded me of being a kid that grew up on the re-releases of the original Star Wars trilogy then finally reaching Episode 3 years later. Everything came to full circle and felt like a complete ride, even if you had to get through some of the bad stuff to get there. With the current SW saga, I just feel like they aren't anywhere close to achieving the universal love and satisfaction of giving the fans what they want. I don't have the confidence in believing they even know what they want to accomplish with the franchise yet, just because of the way both films played out with two different directors. They can play it safe with the next movie and load up on fan service, but I still think they have a long way to go.
I liked TLJ.
I liked Endgame.
In both cases I just went with the flow.
Fans are not entitled to what they want out of a movie. It's the creator's choice what to do with it.
Though whether you enjoy it or not is a purely subjective thing.
No movie can ever be objectively good. Every movie or other piece of entertainment has a group of people who dislikes it.
Bohemian Rhapsody for example is (to me personally) one of the best movies of all time, but there are more than enough people who dislike it for various reasons.
Same with TLJ, with the difference being that the people who dislike it are way more vocal about it for some reason.
So no, TLJ critics (or any critics for that matter) have not been proven right, if only because there are quite a lot of people who disliked what happened with several characters in Endgame.
I personally enjoyed it very much. I don't agree with some of its decisions but I'm not one to judge. I see what happens and keep thinking "Well, that sucks/that's awesome. I'm excited to see what they'll do with that premise."
I liked Endgame.
In both cases I just went with the flow.
Fans are not entitled to what they want out of a movie. It's the creator's choice what to do with it.
Though whether you enjoy it or not is a purely subjective thing.
No movie can ever be objectively good. Every movie or other piece of entertainment has a group of people who dislikes it.
Bohemian Rhapsody for example is (to me personally) one of the best movies of all time, but there are more than enough people who dislike it for various reasons.
Same with TLJ, with the difference being that the people who dislike it are way more vocal about it for some reason.
So no, TLJ critics (or any critics for that matter) have not been proven right, if only because there are quite a lot of people who disliked what happened with several characters in Endgame.
I personally enjoyed it very much. I don't agree with some of its decisions but I'm not one to judge. I see what happens and keep thinking "Well, that sucks/that's awesome. I'm excited to see what they'll do with that premise."
For me, the fundamental difference between the creative teams behind Endgame and TLJ is in the amount of care shown when balancing expectations with risk. Endgame throws a few curve balls at you while still ensuring that you get the proper pay off for your investment in these characters. TLJ places a bigger priority on subverting expectations than crafting a coherent story and developing its characters in a convincing way based on what came before.
I'll cut Rian Johnson some slack because he didn't have the benefit of multiple movies slowly setting up the arcs he wanted for the characters, but for me the fact still remains that the Russos managed to create a quality film while also showing respect for the characters and the fans and Johnson wasn't able (or willing) to do the same.
I'll cut Rian Johnson some slack because he didn't have the benefit of multiple movies slowly setting up the arcs he wanted for the characters, but for me the fact still remains that the Russos managed to create a quality film while also showing respect for the characters and the fans and Johnson wasn't able (or willing) to do the same.
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