Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I know this was weeks ago lol, but it goes along with my f**k Sam shit, I'm still so annoyed that in the Battle of Winterfell people were dying left and right, getting stabbed to pieces all over the place and yet this whiny moron with his 'plot armor' (even though I hate that term) is just lying there being lightly tickled by WWs.

:|

I never expressed my anger back then but that was so stupid. >_>

Seeing thousands of men die, and the ten central plot characters still standing was pretty laughable. I don't mind them all surviving, but please just have more people survive. The whole thing felt like "we need it to be darkest before the dawn", but it just became comical.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
I wish the season was 10 episodes. We could have gotten something awesome.

Like clearly Dany was never going to work by herself... Her people are 1) eunuch war mercenaries 2) mean rapists. Like what are they going to do? Settle in KL and grow old and die peacefully (since no kids) while dothraki go around pillaging?

The politics alone about Dany's "entitled" rule would have been interesting alone without her just becoming Captain Insano.

Meanwhile Moonboy (Arryn of the Vale) is relatively normal?
 

Eidan

AVALANCHE
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,631
What D&D did to Dorne is honestly the biggest travesty.

Haha, nah. Dorne is boring in the books, and horseshit in the show.

The handling of Daenerys' turn will always be their greatest failure.

Book purists have been bitching and moaning about the show since season 2. Their feelings on the direction of the series was never all that important, as general audiences still loved what they were seeing.

It was the bungling of Daenerys in the final 3 episodes that caused general audiences to start turning on the show.
 

RocknRola

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,383
Portugal
As far as I know it came from D&D. HBO wanted more seasons. D&D decided there were only 13 episodes worth of story to tell. HBO should have forced someone else to take over if D&D wanted to leave and do other projects.

If they rushed this in order to go and make the SW films they can go fuck themselves. This show deserved better.

----

Drogon flew East to teach other creatures of the dangers of power corrupting decent people.

I honestly feel like the lore of this series is perfect for videogames. A lot of it is known, but a lot of it seems to be left to the imagination of the reader which would allow devs to make a bunch of different things in this Universe without having to mess with the "cannon" story.
 

Landawng

The Fallen
Nov 9, 2017
3,276
Denver/Aurora, CO
Man, I really liked that finale! That Dany speech at the beginning was so damn good! Saw Jon killing her from a mile away but it still felt earned and a bit shocking. A few clunky moments here and there, like Jon petting Ghost honestly felt like it was shot last week to please all of the cry babies, almost reminded me of the Leia/Chewey scene in TLJ. Really loved how ended up back with Tormund and the Wildings. Sansa being queen of the north is awesome. Arya going west is interesting but it was kind of anti climatic. Surprised no one has charted
the west before honestly. One of the best tv series of all time! I will miss it dearly
 

Duane

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,523
unknown.png


The Tarleys died an agonizing death because they didn't want to join Dany's side.

The Freys died an agonizing death because they plotted and committed the goddamn RED WEDDING.

The Freys had it coming way more than the Tarleys (or, y'know, the citizens of KL).
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I wish the season was 10 episodes. We could have gotten something awesome.

Like clearly Dany was never going to work by herself... Her people are 1) eunuch war mercenaries 2) mean rapists. Like what are they going to do? Settle in KL and grow old and die peacefully (since no kids) while dothraki go around pillaging?

The politics alone about Dany's "entitled" rule would have been interesting alone without her just becoming Captain Insano.

Meanwhile Moonboy (Arryn of the Vale) is relatively normal?

I mean, he catapulted me right out of immersion with that dreadful performance, but otherwise, sure.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
We celebrate fictional antiheroes like Darth Vader or Thanos despite their most heinous actions. I don't see why Dany should be different. I understand you wanted an heroine instead and I respect that, but I feel the Danaerys we got is an actually more nuanced and well developed antihero than most, and letting her go down as the inconsistent hysterical woman would be actually discriminatory.

Man, I don't agree. She ended up as almost cartoonishly evil and dogmatic in her reasoning. There was nothing nuanced about her in her last moments.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,592
May I suggest you respond to specific posters you disagree with? :) To be honest this is a lame fallacy meme. I personally wouldn't call Arya a hero, even in the fist series she stabs a stable boy to death in KL which makes her methods questionable. The hound was right that revenge could consume her. I feel like if Arya was driven to become a conqueror, she might have been a bloodthirsty one as well.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Good thing you missed the point which is framing Dany as some unhinged psycho before episode 5 was silly.

Who framed her as an unhinged psycho before episode 5? The fans? Because the show sure didn't.

The show framed her as an extremely powerful woman who had suffered a lot of loss and wound up basically alone in the world, with all of her trusted friends and advisers either dying or betraying her. She has always thought she knew what was right and felt that nobody she currently knew could give her any sound advice so she followed her own heart and disregarded what they all wanted.

When the bells rung she was feeling all of the anger from losing all of her friends, half her army, being distrusted by the entire continent, and finally she won. But she didn't get to vent any of that anger. All of this was Cersei's fault. But she didn't get to kill Cersei or her soldiers, she just destroyed a bunch of ballistae and knocked down a gate. She was furious that she was put into this position and had no outlet for her fury.

So she took it out on who she thought were her enemies. She would be killing them all anyway, just executing them after the fact, since that's what she does to people who choose to work for her enemies. In her rage she didn't seem to care that she was killing innocent civilians in addition to Lannister soldiers. But to her those innocents were put there by Cersei to exploit her mercy and use it as a weakness. So killing them wasn't Dany doing wrong, it was Cersei doing wrong and Dany proving that she is not weak.

Nothing about any of these episodes showed Dany as an unhinged psycho, and people who see that are really missing the plot. Dany has always, always been someone who believes she was destined for greatness, and that greatness was hers by right. The majority of the show had her righting wrongs and killing people who deserved to be killed, further convincing Dany that she and she alone knows what's right in the world. The more power she got the more she was convinced that she was going to do the right thing and punish all of the evil people in the world.

The problem is that power corrupts. She knew it was right to burn King's Landing because she has always known what was right, and this has been proven time and time again throughout her journey. Tyrion's many failures as her adviser? Further proof that she was right. Jon telling Sansa and Sansa getting word out? Even more proof that Dany was right, that's exactly what she said would happen.

So Dany, basically alone in the world with nobody to trust, knows in her heart that what she wants to do is the right thing to do. Everyone else has led her wrong. She alone is right. Therefore she was able to justify her actions, rationally. Not as an unhinged psycho.
 

effzee

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,369
NJ
I mentally checked out when Jon didn't get his 1v1 against the NK I think. That was his fight, its what he obsessed about all those seasons, what he fought for, why he tried to unite everyone over.

That was his story. "None of this throne shit matters you idiots." etc then he doesn't even get to do anything.

All my disappointment still stems back to that battle I think, they really should have done the Westeros stuff first, burn the throne to the ground then gone and faced the WW to end the show. And in that BATTLE OF ALL MANKIND all the houses and lands are left so decimated they have no choice but rebuild the world and rebuild how it is governed *roll credits*.

This is along the lines of what I wanted to see happen. The Jon story never goes anywhere and doesn't have a payoff. For 7 seasons the whole show is about "none of this matters cause of the WW" and the mystery around Jon. And they botched both of those points at the end. And of course, Dany going mad, if they did it, had to be done far better and over a season. Not just 1 episode.

Was fine with this ending. The story was already botched, so at this point I was surprised they didn't end it worse. I enjoyed it and makes sense, mostly. Actually glad Jon is back up north; he is defined by his time there. From how the Starks started out, they won in the end, and I was happy to see that.

Also, the shot of Drogon coming out of the ash and looking at Jon was fantastic.

BTW Reading through live posts here during the episode was exhausting, so extremely nitpicky and negative. Shit like "Why is Dany bleeding from her mouth?!?!?" - she was stabbed in the chest and the esophagus directly posterior to the heart, but aside from that, who cares? So many other examples.

Yeah, a lot of legit issues but it is open season on GoT now so you get posts like that.
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,166
Seriously, fuck Arya. I hate her character so fucking much.

Everything about her is so one dimensional "Im a badass" bullshit. She gets zero consequences for anything, and walks away from everything completely unscathed.
Her running around the torching of King's Landing was basically straight out of Muppets 2011 when the main character is running at the camera. Sansa, Arya and Jon achieving everything they want despite their nonstop idiocy is an infuriating end. So "bittersweet".
 

JeTmAn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,825
I think you're taking this a bit too personally.

And mind you, it's not wrong, it's nice to see someone so passionate about fiction, but the entire sexism angle will really sour you on what I feel is still a great character. I'm not a woman, so my opinion is less qualified, but no woman I watch the show with - wife, sister, collegues, friends - has mentioned feeling Dany's fall being sexist. The show has its blunders but I think in the end the story has many great women characters and Dany is probably the best. She's fighting a patriarcal system till the end and she doesn't fight fair, but the wheel wasn't fair to her either. Her final moments don't undo all the good she's done for Essos and Westeros. She did something cruel and tragic but it's possible that in time Westeros would have forgiven her for it - we "forgave" the US for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they weren't less monstrous than what Danaerys did.

Her tale ends the way it does and Jon still mentions that while it's for the better, it doesn't feel right. Even in death, her legacy is undeniable. She did break the wheel. She almost singlehandedly stopped the Others' invasion.

We celebrate fictional antiheroes like Darth Vader or Thanos despite their most heinous actions. I don't see why Dany should be different. I understand you wanted an heroine instead and I respect that, but I feel the Danaerys we got is an actually more nuanced and well developed antihero than most, and letting her go down as the inconsistent hysterical woman would be actually discriminatory.

I don't know if that analogy works. Those bombings were done to shock the enemy into ceasing hostilities. The soldiers were still fighting. In Dany's case, her enemy had already surrendered. What she did is more like leveling Berlin after all the Nazi forces had completely surrendered. I don't think the Germans would've gotten over that.
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
The Tarleys died an agonizing death because they didn't want to join Dany's side.

The Freys died an agonizing death because they plotted and committed the goddamn RED WEDDING.

The Freys had it coming way more than the Tarleys (or, y'know, the citizens of KL).
It's still an evil thing to wipe out an entire family. And cook people.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
Theres a reason why they needed the month time skip. Because its the only way to write themselves out of that hole. They didnt even want to bother dealing with how insanely unrealistic it was for either character to have lived after committing treason like that. So flash forward a month and never acknowledge it.
They could had easily spend a whole episode on that mess XD
Damn it got super rushed
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284

They butchered Arya's character by making her some "cool badass" and not the emotionally disturbed and PTSD ridden young girl she realistically should be, but you're comparing someone on a power trip to someone who is enacting vengeance on a family who was responsible for the assassination of her mother and brother.

There is no indication that she killed a Frey girl for her face, she has many faces and Walder Frey doesn't exactly keep track of all his daughters.
 

fossi8

One Winged Slayer
Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,006
Leaving all the negativity behind,, you can´t name a better council: Tyrion, Bronn, Brienne, Davos and Sam.
 

KodaRuss

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,885
Texas
It is cool and all that the North is independent but the fact that everyone was ok with it during the council was kinda stupid.

Bran being the King is just beyond ridiculous. I cannot get my head around that.
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
I posted this in my group chats.

Before the internet can tell me I'm wrong and I should think that ending sucks....


I loved it. I thought that was about the best ending you could have hoped for given where the pieces were.

Now... once again the story of his last season has been good idea, HORRENDOUS execution.

Do I like how the Night King and army of the dead were handled. No. Am I ok with them being defeated by Arya, yeah thats fine. They just needed way better build up around it.

Am I OK with Dany going mad and burning down KL? Yes. I thought that was gonna happen since Season 5 or 6. She's always wanted to do it but her advisors have always steered here away from it. She needed more build up of why she was growing frustrated. She needed more of a reason to finally snap. And she needed to have been handled better in this episode. We should have recieved more justification for her actions. We needed to see her become that sort of justified villian this show, barring Twyin, never really had. They touched on it a little. How Kings Landing needs to be torn down before it can be built up "in her perfect image." We needed to show more about how Dany could not be reasoned with to stop her tyranny there. That she was going to kill anyone clinging to the old world without giving them a chance to change.

I am fine she died. I think Jon being the one to kill her makes sense (and sorta fills the Azor Ahai prophecy in a way, flaming sword notwithstanding).

Bran needed some SERIOUS work and was not given justice. One of the conceptually coolest characters on the show but falls flat in practice. It makes sense to make him King, and I love this new United Nation Council framework they have set up. But we needed a lot more explanation of him and his "powers" How much did he know it was gonna turn out like this? Is the future pre-ordained? Why didn't he bother warning about Dany? All frustrating questions answered by a copout of "you were where you needed to be"

That being said, seeing the fates of the remaining characters was nice. I liked Sansa getting a free north. I liked Jon going to live beyond the wall. I like Arya doing her own thing. I like the new council of kingdoms and the kings court or whatever you wanna call it.

I see some people here are rightfully upset at the execution of events that led up to the ending. But I don't see how anyone can have any issue with the actual events of the ending and the world after. Unless of course to the GoT boils down to "It needs to be sad and people need to die" which is fucking stupid. It was clear to me that the internet already decided this ending was bad before it aired.

This has been an incredible show that has struggled in its final stretch. But although I don't like how the events leading up to the ending were handled... the actual ending was ace. It does not deserve to be talked about as one of the worst endings to a TV series. Not even close.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
Who framed her as an unhinged psycho before episode 5? The fans? Because the show sure didn't.

The show framed her as an extremely powerful woman who had suffered a lot of loss and wound up basically alone in the world, with all of her trusted friends and advisers either dying or betraying her. She has always thought she knew what was right and felt that nobody she currently knew could give her any sound advice so she followed her own heart and disregarded what they all wanted.

When the bells rung she was feeling all of the anger from losing all of her friends, half her army, being distrusted by the entire continent, and finally she won. But she didn't get to vent any of that anger. All of this was Cersei's fault. But she didn't get to kill Cersei or her soldiers, she just destroyed a bunch of ballistae and knocked down a gate. She was furious that she was put into this position and had no outlet for her fury.

So she took it out on who she thought were her enemies. She would be killing them all anyway, just executing them after the fact, since that's what she does to people who choose to work for her enemies. In her rage she didn't seem to care that she was killing innocent civilians in addition to Lannister soldiers. But to her those innocents were put there by Cersei to exploit her mercy and use it as a weakness. So killing them wasn't Dany doing wrong, it was Cersei doing wrong and Dany proving that she is not weak.

Nothing about any of these episodes showed Dany as an unhinged psycho, and people who see that are really missing the plot. Dany has always, always been someone who believes she was destined for greatness, and that greatness was hers by right. The majority of the show had her righting wrongs and killing people who deserved to be killed, further convincing Dany that she and she alone knows what's right in the world. The more power she got the more she was convinced that she was going to do the right thing and punish all of the evil people in the world.

The problem is that power corrupts. She knew it was right to burn King's Landing because she has always known what was right, and this has been proven time and time again throughout her journey. Tyrion's many failures as her adviser? Further proof that she was right. Jon telling Sansa and Sansa getting word out? Even more proof that Dany was right, that's exactly what she said would happen.

So Dany, basically alone in the world with nobody to trust, knows in her heart that what she wants to do is the right thing to do. Everyone else has led her wrong. She alone is right. Therefore she was able to justify her actions, rationally. Not as an unhinged psycho.

See, the biggest issue I have with what Dany did at King's Landing is that the entire episode set out that IF Dany decided to attack KL, thousands of innocent would die, because they were everywhere within the Red Keep. That's how Cercei used the innocent. The dilemma was set up to be "should a few thousand innocent die to attack, and we take those innocent as people Cercei have to answer for, for using them in the battle? Or do we try and conquer the city without a need to do that?"

Then Dany just chose option 3. Level the entire city. When she first started, I was like "cool, she's gonna make a path of fire for her soldiers to march forth to Red Keep, and she'll blast the Red Keep too, even if the innocent die. That's war, and fuck you Cercei". Then a few minutes later, you just she her lawn-mower style going back and forth over the city, and all shred of moral and ethical dilemmas were tossed out the window. That was so stupid.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,753
It's always interesting to see people grapple with likeable characters who do terrible things. We kind of put aside our moral compass a bit because it makes sense in this fictional world and the character's enemies "had it coming" when in real life most of these people would be considered sociopaths.
 
Oct 25, 2017
335
Fortaleza
They butchered Arya's character by making her some "cool badass" and not the emotionally disturbed and PTSD ridden young girl she realistically should be, but you're comparing someone on a power trip to someone who is enacting vengeance on a family who was responsible for the assassination of her mother and brother.

There is no indication that she killed a Frey girl for her face, she has many faces and Walder Frey doesn't exactly keep track of all his daughters.

They butchered every single character.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
54,030

Ahahahahahahahaha yeah that would have never happened and if it had that would have been the least believable thing of the entire season. It took Ser Barriston the Bold bringing up the truth about the Mad King and Rhaegar Targaryen to Dany in order to convince her to give some no name Mereenese guy a trial before she executed him. There is not a single solitary chance in hell that Dany with no friends or advisers left would have left Cersei or Jaime alive long enough for a trial.


The man who killed her father and the woman who had committed more heinous crimes than anyone up until that point? Dany would have made them scooby snacks for Drogon within minutes.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,164
It's funny how people were happy that the Night King was dealt with quickly so we could get back to the politics... only for all of the interesting politics to get skipped over.



I fucking said this right after ep3 aired

i really have to laugh that some people actually thought that by killing the NK early we will get "good old GoT" with scheming and political intrigue. the NK should've been the central villain, because he's perfect for D&D - don't have to bother with complex motivations or heel turns or anything. He's a cool looking motherfucker that just wants to kill.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,854
Chicago
She's the one that tattled to Tyrion about Jon's big ol' secret, causing the chain reaction that resulted in the destruction of King's Landing. Plus inherently contributing to Dany's mistrust of the people of Westeros with her bullshit attitude. Too bad she was totally power hungry obsessed with ruling a free north I guess!

Words and actions are two different things.
 

Duane

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,523
It's still an evil thing to wipe out an entire family. And cook people.

True, it was pretty overboard. But they DID cut her brother's head off, stab his pregnant wife in the womb, kill her, and slice their mother's throat, after inviting them to dinner. Westeros justice is pretty gristly.

I'm not saying Arya's little scene wasn't meant to be kewl shock value, it was, but the graphic seems to justify Dany's executions and gloss over Arya's reasons.
 

Rhaknar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
43,176
It's always interesting to see people grapple with likeable characters who do terrible things. We kind of put aside our moral compass a bit because it makes sense in this fictional world and the character's enemies "had it coming" when in real life most of these people would be considered sociopaths.

I'm baffled people are going "Dany did nothing wrong" (non-jokingly) when she LITERALLY SLAUGHTERS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, herself too, it wasnt even a war order or something.

It's actually a little scary.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,354
Bronn is the master of coin. Tyrion once had to explain loans and interest to him.

I really loved the finale. I recognize that the past two seasons have been rushed but I've still enjoyed it and I find most people's whinign to be silly and over the top.

That said-this was the one thing that really bothered me. Who would let Bronn in this council?

I'm baffled people are going "Dany did nothing wrong" (non-jokingly) when she LITERALLY SLAUGHTERS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, herself too, it wasnt even a war order or something.

It's actually a little scary.

It really is.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
54,030
Seriously, fuck Arya. I hate her character so fucking much.

Everything about her is so one dimensional "Im a badass" bullshit. She gets zero consequences for anything, and walks away from everything completely unscathed.

"completely unscathed"???? What? Arya is scarred for life because of the shit she has been through. She has watched friends and family die. She was literally beaten into a badass by the faceless men.She was blinded. She has nearly died on numerous occasions.


Arya is an emotional and mental wreck. 'Completely unscathed". Yeah okay lol
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,228
Toronto
I'm happy Davos kept up with his book learnin' so he could continue to correct people's grammar. He'd be quoting all the people using "story arch" instead of "story arc" in this thread like the badass he is.