Protein

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,034
D&D really are the villains. They tried to squeeze two books into half a season because they wanted to go do some other projects. Leaving everyone that invested so much time into this series on their ass. Now they're not entitled to giving us a great ending, but it's definitely a massive dick move. Plus, it didn't help that they didn't have book material to base the later seasons on so the writing suffered as a result.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,441
Santa Destroy
Seriously, like you mean to tell me Greyworm, who was just as bloodthirsty as Dany would capitulate to the will of a bunch of Lords? That he wouldn't have just killed Tyrion and Jon? That the unsullied wouldn't? How did the ruling council of Lords even come to be in the power vacuum that was left? The unsullied and Dany's soldiers didn't follow any of those people, they had no reason to listen to them. Greyworm had no reason to listen to them, and as the commander of the armies he had all the power.

And, if that's the case, why exile Jon? Clearly Greyworm had no power, they could have told him to fuck off.

He's on foreign land, surrounded by superior forces, in a ruined castle that has little defendable infrastructure and a weakened and ruined population he does NOT want to manage or rule, his lover is dead, his queen is dead, and you wanted him to what - sacrifice his remaining people? All he wanted to do was leave, safely, with some sense of justice

He acted wise - let's not diminish him to a brute
 

GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,402
I don't have a problem per se with the basic plot points but I do think Danny's descent into madness was rushed. To me, it would have made way more sense for the white walkers to completely wreck house for a little. Maybe have them destroy Winterfell, causing our heroes to retreat. Maybe then you could have had Cersi order the Golden Company to attack and basically nearly wipeout the remaining survivors. At that point you could have the Night King defeated and the Golden Company destroyed with barely any of the heroes surviving. Then you could have Danny go crazy and level Kings Landing. Just my two cents. That being said I didn't have a huge problem with the finale. I never wanted a "happy ending" to GoT.
 

fuzzyset

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,587
Do you not recall the first five years of her journey? Let's not mistake what she became with what she was, or her journey toward it.

She had one of the best arch's on the show

It's a really low bar, but you're probably right. It's not without its flaws though. Arya got beaten for refusing to become "No One" for an entire season. She then spent this whole season waffling between "I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell" to "I ain't never seeing y'all again". Arya is one of 2 people Jon shares his secret with, and then she says "yeah I'm never gonna see you again, bai".
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,935
Sansa should've wheeled Bran into the sea and made herself Queen of everything. I would've accepted that ending.
 

Deleted member 28564

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,604
Seriously, like you mean to tell me Greyworm, who was just as bloodthirsty as Dany would capitulate to the will of a bunch of Lords? That he wouldn't have just killed Tyrion and Jon? That the unsullied wouldn't? How did the ruling council of Lords even come to be in the power vacuum that was left? The unsullied and Dany's soldiers didn't follow any of those people, they had no reason to listen to them. Greyworm had no reason to listen to them, and as the commander of the armies he had all the power.
This is my grievance. So hilarious seeing the show previously praised for its political intrigue just skip over this entirely, especially when there is still a huge ass army left, some with no place to call home.
 

LifeLine

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,779
Honestly liked where everyone ended up. I was sad about Jon till I realized he gets to live in the true north and get himself another wildling girl.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
btw can someone explain to me her army size?
image


i remember 2 episodes ago her army was very small when she faced cersei and almost all dothraki are killed in the night king battle

I thought half her army was marching with Jon. They were just the ones from the fleet that got to KL quicker.

They kind of forgot armies can teleport anywhere because there weren't enough extras that day
 

Future Gazer

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,275
It's crazy how we just fast forwarded weeks after Dany was assassinated and shown none of the fallout of it, i a show with huge amounts of political intrigue everything was just hunky-dory, Greyworm and Dany's soldiers didn't lose their shit, everyone just capitulated to the will of a bunch of lords after having conquered Westeros in the name of breaking the wheel.

It's funny how people were happy that the Night King was dealt with quickly so we could get back to the politics... only for all of the interesting politics to get skipped over.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
They rehabilitated male characters who were villainess pieces of shit, and they turned female characters who weren't into child murdering psychopaths (Ellaria is a complete 180 to what her character is in the books). There's nothing in this show that would indicate prior to episode 5 that Dany would actually wholesale slaughter civilians after winning a battle. Soldiers, lords, sure. Small folk civilians? No fucking way. As I said earlier, this is the second time in the lore where a Targ Queen is about to ascend, and an Aegon sweeps it from under her. The first time resulted in sexist laws being implemented and the woman was blamed for the whole affair.

That's bad writing. It's not being sexist. It's generally agreed that Dany could end up mad, but that the turn wasn't executed at all. That does not make it sexist.
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,208
Toronto
gonna ask again, i'm quite sure i read somewhere long ago that we're getting multiple movies?
this isn't the end right?
Multiple shows set in the ASoIaF world are in the works, including a prequel series staring Naomi Watts. No movies or sequel series have ever been confirmed.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,592
It's sexist because it:
1. involves a woman
2. didn't go exactly the way I wanted.

I, and others, have literally explained why this is not the case several times, in this thread and others, but go off I guess. Why think critically about the media you consume or have empathy towards marginalised groups when you can be smug and condescending instead?
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,115
The whole "well why didn't they just move!" argument is absurd and I wish people would stop trying to act like its a legitimate argument. Its really not.


Even IF they had moved and survived what would have happened? They would have been trapped in the bottom of the Red Keep and possibly starved to death. If they survived and Tyrion found them how would he have gotten them out without anyone knowing? The city was crawling with soldiers from all sides. If they had been caught then they would AT BEST been burned alive by Dany and at worst been tortured and THEN burned alive.


I don't know about you but I would rather be crushed to death holding someone I love than being tortured and/or burned alive.
Are people saying they could have avoided falling bricks? I'm not. I'm saying it looks stupid, and their deaths aren't cathartic in the way that Arya making pies is.

Tyrion found them no problem. And he tossed around the 2lb bricks with 30 lb sound effects no problem. Tyrion finding them was a waste of screen time.

And it isn't about the sort of death I want or you want. The characters didn't want to die, sure, makes sense. It would have been more satisfying if Cersei had drank poison like she was ready to earlier in the series.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Seriously, like you mean to tell me Greyworm, who was just as bloodthirsty as Dany would capitulate to the will of a bunch of Lords? That he wouldn't have just killed Tyrion and Jon? That the unsullied wouldn't? How did the ruling council of Lords even come to be in the power vacuum that was left? The unsullied and Dany's soldiers didn't follow any of those people, they had no reason to listen to them. Greyworm had no reason to listen to them, and as the commander of the armies he had all the power.

And, if that's the case, why exile Jon? Clearly Greyworm had no power, they could have told him to fuck off.
Theres a reason why they needed the month time skip. Because its the only way to write themselves out of that hole. They didnt even want to bother dealing with how insanely unrealistic it was for either character to have lived after committing treason like that. So flash forward a month and never acknowledge it.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
Huh ,i didn't the dragons were smart o.O, he burned the iron throne,for no apparent reason except he wanted, and took Dany's body with him somewhere (to mourn her? Eat her?) He could just have left by himself or be jons pet
 

effzee

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,350
NJ
They showed he still had a huge army during Dany's speech. They had a say as it would have been war between them and the rest of the people on the council otherwise. Yara and the Iron Islands would have likely sided with them in that war as well.

Yet they let Tyrion live (who she wanted to kill) and let Jon walk. Ultimately what the Unsullied wanted doesn't and shouldn't have mattered.

If there was a war between them, it should have been immediately following the murder. Not a few weeks later.

- the whole point that the story was driving to though was that blood shouldn't make someone a king. And that was borne out in the fact that they all got together and voted on a king. Jon's claim meant nothing, and that was the better outcome. In addition, telegraphing that far ahead to a foregone conclusion is just boring storytelling anyway, if Jon was made king. I do agree that it only mattered in that it made the conflict between he and Dany happen, which was integral to her downfall.

- he's the three eyed raven. ?

- he sent them to many higher ups i'm sure, but in the end it didn't matter anyway since they were done with king by family.

- agreed, we should have had more episodes.

I get the point of the story about bloodlines but at some point the show became about Jon Snow. Why was he brought back from the dead? To kill the NK? Cause he is the chosen one? No wait well that was done by Arya.

Or maybe was it cause he is the rightful king and as the king will bring peace to the realm? Oh no, wait nevermind that doesn't happen either. At some point Jon's story had to pay off and it never does. As I said sure its cliched but that's what I felt the story deserved. I have never actually bought into a character more so than Jon Snow. From how he started on the show, I thought he was a minor side character to his rise post season 3, to him being established as the savior....only for it to lead to nothing. The best thing the show did was the Jon Snow reveal and it led to nothing. You can say it led to Dany not trusting him, but they could have shown that in many different ways. The lore, prophecy, the promised hero were all flushed down the toilet with how Jon ends his story.

We still know next to nothing about Bran. I wanted exposition here.

I just feel completely indifferent and empty inside after watching. It wasn't a total disaster and it wasn't particularly enthralling.

Moments like who became king of the realm should have resonated with me in a powerful way and instead I felt nothing.

I am grateful for this show existing though and it's been a hell of a ride up until this point

Same. I loved the show and it is one of my favorite series but by this season the immense anxiety I used to feel leading up to the episodes was gone. I used to have the same feeling as before a big sports event I was vested in. But this season I watched, enjoyed a lot, but that sense of excitement was gone.

Where did the decision to only have 6 episodes (even if longer than usual) come from? Budget restraints? Directors choice? 6 is a cool number because of reasons? This season could have easily used 2-3 more episodes let things sink in and progress at a better rhythm.

As far as I know it came from D&D. HBO wanted more seasons. D&D decided there were only 13 episodes worth of story to tell. HBO should have forced someone else to take over if D&D wanted to leave and do other projects.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,708
New York
Seriously, like you mean to tell me Greyworm, who was just as bloodthirsty as Dany would capitulate to the will of a bunch of Lords? That he wouldn't have just killed Tyrion and Jon? That the unsullied wouldn't? How did the ruling council of Lords even come to be in the power vacuum that was left? The unsullied and Dany's soldiers didn't follow any of those people, they had no reason to listen to them. Greyworm had no reason to listen to them, and as the commander of the armies he had all the power.

And, if that's the case, why exile Jon? Clearly Greyworm had no power, they could have told him to fuck off.
Because it's hack level writing.
 

Maxim726x

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
13,168
By the way, anyone want to talk about how "Oathkeeper" Brienne left Sansa to join the Kingsguard?

I mean... I'm pretty sure we all knew that she would finish Jaime's entry, but still. Weird direction for her character.
 

Deleted member 3897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,638
It's funny how people were happy that the Night King was dealt with quickly so we could get back to the politics... only for all of the interesting politics to get skipped over.

Everything surrounding the NK, 3ER, prophecies etc. was the most fascinating and interesting part of the story to me. And everything went down the drain in episode 3.

Not any explanation on Craster, what the lord of light was, what the 3ER actually is and so on.

I assume HBO probably want to focus on that with a spin-off, but with how things ended with them, Im not very interested.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
It's sexist because it:
1. involves a woman
2. didn't go exactly the way I wanted.
Its so sad that this is the kind of response thought out posts about inherent sexism get by people like you. This type of defense force is seriously pathetic. No effort, and doesn't even address the central problems others bring up.
 
Dec 31, 2017
7,146
Was fine with this ending. The story was already botched, so at this point I was surprised they didn't end it worse. I enjoyed it and makes sense, mostly. Actually glad Jon is back up north; he is defined by his time there. From how the Starks started out, they won in the end, and I was happy to see that.

Also, the shot of Drogon coming out of the ash and looking at Jon was fantastic.

BTW Reading through live posts here during the episode was exhausting, so extremely nitpicky and negative. Shit like "Why is Dany bleeding from her mouth?!?!?" - she was stabbed in the chest and the esophagus directly posterior to the heart, but aside from that, who cares? So many other examples.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,280
How was it cheap? Jaime didn't deserve redemption (and neither did Theon) he was an attempted child murderer and rapist. They were always toxic together and died together. The newly knighted Brienne writing his fate down on the book was rather sad and presumely then becoming the honorable lord commander he often failed to be.
She was always the main villain of the show before going from 1 episode it became Dany, that's why it felt cheap
 

TheFuzz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,497
As a book reader, Jon becoming the King beyond the wall is a pretty fantastic and fitting ending for him.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Seriously, fuck Arya. I hate her character so fucking much.

Everything about her is so one dimensional "Im a badass" bullshit. She gets zero consequences for anything, and walks away from everything completely unscathed.

In the books she
kills a bard in Braavos out of nowhere just because she finds out he deserted the night's watch. Made no sense.
 

Conrad Link

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,707
New Zealand
I know this was weeks ago lol, but it goes along with my f**k Sam shit, I'm still so annoyed that in the Battle of Winterfell people were dying left and right, getting stabbed to pieces all over the place and yet this whiny moron with his 'plot armor' (even though I hate that term) is just lying there being lightly tickled by WWs.

:|

I never expressed my anger back then but that was so stupid. >_>
 

Deleted member 33761

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 19, 2017
152
Really glad we got to see Dany's awesome heel turn for her to be the big bad for all of 25 minutes. Like a lot of people I probably wouldn't have had as much of an issue with where we ended with better explanations. We had 3 main villains this season alone and they all went out with a wet fart
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I don't want Dany to take the throne, nor do I believe she will. I want her to live peacefully in Essos in a house with a red door and plant trees, but I firmly believe that book!Dany will die a hero against the others as redemption after accidentally burning down King's Landing (via lethal combo of Dragonfire + wildfire) and I'm okay with that. But guess what... if GRRM ends her story with her turning into Dragon Hitler and getting put down like a rabid dog by a man.... then he's a clown too lmao

I think you're taking this a bit too personally.

And mind you, it's not wrong, it's nice to see someone so passionate about fiction, but the entire sexism angle will really sour you on what I feel is still a great character. I'm not a woman, so my opinion is less qualified, but no woman I watch the show with - wife, sister, collegues, friends - has mentioned feeling Dany's fall being sexist. The show has its blunders but I think in the end the story has many great women characters and Dany is probably the best. She's fighting a patriarcal system till the end and she doesn't fight fair, but the wheel wasn't fair to her either. Her final moments don't undo all the good she's done for Essos and Westeros. She did something cruel and tragic but it's possible that in time Westeros would have forgiven her for it - we "forgave" the US for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they weren't less monstrous than what Danaerys did.

Her tale ends the way it does and Jon still mentions that while it's for the better, it doesn't feel right. Even in death, her legacy is undeniable. She did break the wheel. She almost singlehandedly stopped the Others' invasion.

We celebrate fictional antiheroes like Darth Vader or Thanos despite their most heinous actions. I don't see why Dany should be different. I understand you wanted an heroine instead and I respect that, but I feel the Danaerys we got is an actually more nuanced and well developed antihero than most, and letting her go down as the inconsistent hysterical woman would be actually discriminatory.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,276
Was fine with this ending. The story was already botched, so at this point I was surprised they didn't end it worse. I enjoyed it and makes sense, mostly. Actually glad Jon is back up north; he is defined by his time there. From how the Starks started out, they won in the end, and I was happy to see that.

Also, the shot of Drogon coming out of the ash and looking at Jon was fantastic.

BTW Reading through live posts here during the episode was exhausting, so extremely nitpicky and negative. Shit like "Why is Dany bleeding from her mouth?!?!?" - she was stabbed in the chest and the esophagus directly posterior to the heart, but aside from that, who cares? So many other examples.

Are you suggesting that maybe people are going a little overboard with the nitpicking?
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
I cant even buy her reasons. Like, I could accept it if she was properly grieving everyone she lost, losing sleep, and tapping into some broken state of mind that Targs fall into.

But it was hastily written: Varys says "Remember: targs are born pure evil or good", then she fucking kills everyone...but she's also queen of the unchained, and loves the women and children, but also kills them all, and wants to literally be Hitler and wipe out everyone else EVERYWHERE in the world.

It just felt stupid because she never felt truly gone from her original self, but we were supposed to believe she was completely gone. No one even seems to say "but what about your promises and you freeing all those people in Essos". She just says "Cersei used their innocence and I had to show her up by killing everyone".

It feels in part she felt she had no claim to the throne with Jon, but even that was hastily put in before the battle of winterfell
Yeah it was not really end episode madness, we were suppised to believe a part of Dany was wrong from the beginning, and she was totally evil by the last episodes, the way she acted without any remorse in the finale was creepy, problem is nobody saw this but Varys, and just a little Sansa