I agree to disagree then, because i fail to see how criticizing a character regardless of gender is sexist. A fictional character is made up i dont think it has anything to do with gender.
Freddie Prinze Jr's tears down the arguments from Star Wars "fans" and explains the balance of the Force
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But Ezra was already using the force. He even dogdes TIE FIGHTER SHOTS.
Rey uses the force, but in no way is a good "JEDI" fighter yet. If you actually pay attention to the fightstyle in TFA and TLJ, in TFA she's just waving the lightsaber in anger, while Kylo just blocks her with no intention of taking her down.In TLJ she's constantly being hurt by the royal guards and just keeps going because she knows how to defend herself.
because the very same criticisms can be applied to the other two male protagonists of the saga but somehow, they aren't because of reasons.
Goddamn this entire post could literally just be summed up as "Things I disagree with are dumb"
Nah Freddy says that training really means fuck all. "Luke's skill doesn't dictate who wins or loses. The force dictates who wins or loses based on balance."
People have been weaponizing sexism accusations to defend a movie for years on this forum. Thankfully a good number of them have been banned. It's repulsive but you'll get used to it.
Ben Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke Skywalker: You mean it controls your actions?
Kenobi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.
She keeps succeeding and succeeding despite that, to the point of ridicule.
Her having the force like Ezrais not the problem. Had Ezra taken on Vader on season with any other result than this:
Then he would be a problem too
There's explanations attached to them if you care to contribute to the discussion.
I don't know man; fan rants about how misunderstood the new star wars movies are always seem to miss the point IMO. I think the people who dislike the new movies dislike them because they're HD remakes of the old trilogy, which immediately makes them less interesting and exciting, and the main characters are just not very likeable, interesting, or memorable.
Boyega is embarrassing to watch on screen almost 100% of the time. He is completely unsympathetic, annoying, and unlikeable; 50% of which is due to his terrible performance, and 50% is due to how poorly the character was written. Daisy Ridley does not have the charisma, personality, charm, etc. to drive the leading role in a Star Wars film, and is somewhat boring to watch. Oscar Issaac, the best actor of the three, was given a very one-note, one dimensional character to play, and still manages to steal every scene he's in. Unfortunately, his character doesn't really have much of a story to speak of.
Boyega is embarrassing to watch on screen almost 100% of the time. He is completely unsympathetic, annoying, and unlikeable; 50% of which is due to his terrible performance, and 50% is due to how poorly the character was written. Daisy Ridley does not have the charisma, personality, charm, etc. to drive the leading role in a Star Wars film, and is somewhat boring to watch. Oscar Issaac, the best actor of the three, was given a very one-note, one dimensional character to play, and still manages to steal every scene he's in. Unfortunately, his character doesn't really have much of a story to speak of.
Same poster who asks people to raise the discourse in SW threads ha
Oh yeah except for lifting up like a couple hundred giant rocks/boulders at once with little to no effort or strain on her part.
Ok but that doesn't make any real sense if belief is really the key to power in the force. Like why not paint or meditate or swim or indeed jog - because if belief and confidence are the keys to actual power it makes way more sense to focus more on actually manipulating the force instead of practicing any swordplay ever.
Also - describing the monks that the jedi are base on as only learning martial arts to focus their minds is super off base. Many monks were military before they joined and they were practicing boxing and wrestling for yeeeears before they started formally training in a more regimented martial art. They held vast lands and income from said land ownership. They learned how to fight to protect themselves and their interests.
Just like the Jedi.
Yeah this is a weird take because it's not like there's a lot of art house film acting in any Star Wars movie.
Objectively, Daisy Ridley has done a far better job than either Mark Hamil or Hayden Christiansen - which weren't high bars to overcome.
Really, the charm and chemistry of Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford in the OT is more of an outlier in all of Star Wars than anything else.
Anything you have issue with? I think my complaints with the vid are clear but I can expound on whatever you don't get.
Do you like the idea of midichlorians?
Do you like the will of the force being an all controlling god like entity playing a game against itself and we're just watching the characters go through the motions?
Do you believe there's no such thing as power levels even though there's multiple examples of people talking about different peoples power and shots of Jedis training to improve, etc?
Do you think it'd be fine to see Yoda push the Death Star into a sun because he knows size is only in your mind?
And do you really think the emperor was so smart that he somehow knew that killing Anakin would bring the wrath of the force so he drew him to his side only to somehow not understand that the force would obviously make twin good guys to fight him?
This is between you and the other guy lol
I just think it's funny that you've complained in the past about people who disagree with you being uncivil and yet here you are calling someone else's ideas dumb.
On this damn mess, Freddie must be the last person on the planet to try to convince someone else with his own Star Wars shit. He's have zero influence on people with problems about the new trilogy. If he had a personal attack from a bunch of fucking nerds, he's only right for all his words about them.
Well...
For one, Ezra is not meant to be the main protagonist of the mainline new series. For seconds, Kylo doesn't try to kill her AND he's severely wounded. He also was able to paralize her, knocer her unconscious using the force, and only got resisted of the mind reading because she's strong with the force.
LOL I like how you respond to being intellectually dishonest with "it was mentioned in a draft so it's in the OT", holy shit. This is absurd. If it's not in the actual script, it's not in the movie.
The Jedi weren't even sure what their "prophecy" actually meant. They thought it was Anakin Skywalker, then Yoda says that it could have been misread. It's very possible that the Jedi were wrong about some magical person coming in to save the day, since they were already wrong once before. I think TROS is going to greatly expand on this.
No one shifted goalposts. I asked you to provide an in film, canon explanation in which states your claim, that choice isn't real and that the will of the Force decides everything.
You won't find it, because it simply doesn't exist. The fact that you had to dip into rough drafts to strengthen your argument only reflects this.
It's not just the dialogue that emphasizes the importance of choice, but the way the films are directed. For example, the constant shots of Vader staring at Luke while he's being tortured to death by the emperor, conveying the conflict within.. The transformation from Vader back to Anakin Skywalker.
But that's all just totally the will of the Force changing his mind, right? The director totally wasn't trying to convey the shift in character, and Luke definitely didn't directly reference the struggle he sensed in his father before he saved the day by choosing to end the emperor's reign.
It also doesn't make sense as to how the force having Vader turn to the light and killing the emperor brings balance if balance is this rigid 1:1 light/dark idea.
This is cyclical. Fate determining all things means that all things are predetermined. If you wanted to break it down to the smallest levels like this, then it would still mean that any any action that anyone takes is predetermined. Which would mean that any choice made was always going to be made anyways. So the Force obeying a command would not actually be the Force obeying a command but would still seem like it to those wielding the Force.
What you're missing is that the illusion of choice means that beings that follow the path of faith do not necessarily know they're following a path. They think they're making their own choices even if those choices are predetermined. Jedi are not all knowing. They're human. Fallible. So they can misunderstand or just plainly not know the will of the Force fully. After all the Force is a greater being determining their fate.
This is why Fate is a philosophical idea. It can't be proven or disproven. Because the idea itself necessitates that beings under the control of Fate would have no way to know that. So Kenobi wouldn't know if the Force was determining everything, some things, or nothing. But regardless of the truth, he'll make the choices that he thinks is best and the results will be what they are. Because if Fate exists, it was going to happen anyways and if it doesn't then his choice matters. But he can't prove it either way.
Which is why, when Fate is concerned, the opinions and ideas of characters within the fiction about their own agency mean nothing unless the fiction specifically has that character be informed directly by a greater supernatural power. That doesn't happen in Star Wars. So quoting lines from normal beings about "choose this" or "you can control that" don't refute the existence of Fate.
Nobody is saying belief is the key to power. The idea that was put forth was that Power is predetermined and belief is the key to execution. Force Users have the power always but can only use it once they have the right beliefs. I'm personally not fond of using the word "belief" but it essentially stands for "having the right state of mind," in the context that it's being used, so it's fine.
And you're talking about the origin of the Monks. I'm talking about Monks as they have existed at the time Lucas started writing his scripts. So it's not about the historical origins of Monks as much as it's about how the Monks were known in the 70's. Which is a far cry from their origins.
Lmao idgaf how strong anyone is but the "will of the force" sounds like a bullshit excuse you could use for literally anything.
Regardless of where you stand with the lore, we can all agree that Ahsoka is the best. Right friends?
Yes.
This shit is not even in the films. People jumping to "the Force controls everything and everyone, free choice doesn't exist" because the Jedi believed in a prophecy are completely off base.
It contradicts what we see during the characters' most defining moments.
Addressing your first point:
It may not be explicitly "better state of mind" = More power but it does imply pretty directly that studying and having your head in the right place is essential to reaching your potential. Fair enough. But now we have to talk about potential and then we start down the road to midichlorians and once you do that we are FIRMLY in the land of power levels. How much Ki does your blood have? How forcey is your body? Oh you lost a limb? That's 5.7% of your force juice down the drain.
It's a very weird place that SW has uniquely shoved itself into. It wants the esoteric and deep meaningful meditative angle of these warrior monks who practice and refine themselves through entire lives dedicated to the arts of battle but then also says "without any of that at all - someone can watch someone use force powers and if they are desperate enough, mimic said power perfectly"
It's not a fault in Rey's character. I think it's more of a fault in how they have presented the force over the years.
To you 2nd point:
fair enough i suppose. Although i think it's kind of weird to say "i'm basing my space warrior monks off real life warrior monks" and when someone says "oh you mean these real examples of actual warriors who are also monks who had to defend themselves and their institutions against often times corrupt and greedy government interference?" the answer is "Nah dog i meant like David Carradine in Kung Fu!"
like.... ok? LoL
The fight against the red guards in TLJ tells me that Rey and Ben are on par with each other in combat skills.
So just so I'm clear. In the first Star Wars film, you think the author wrote Obi Wan, the mentor and most knowledgeable authority on the force that we knew, as being ignorant of the force while he's describing it to the audience?
The TLJ Visual Dictionary confirmed that Anakin is the Chosen One.
TCW and George Lucas' comments also say that Anakin is the Chosen One.
Just saying.
She's beaten multiple trained fighters in fights. Despite it looking like she's just waving it around and despite the contrast between her fighting style and Kylo's during the throne room fight, the movie is implying she's a good fighter whether it looks that way or not
I thought it was clear since TFA. If anything Rey is a bit stronger. But its really the writers fault here. They have been really poor to explain why is Rey Is so strong. In the deleted scene of TLJ it is shown rey knows how to force speed. Knowing mind trick, winning mental battles with kylo, saving kylo against the empire guards. Also their tug of war scene kind of solidifies she is on par with kylo if not stronger. Which is kind of unbelievable as someone with no training be on par with someone trained in force for years. Its like me going up against lebron and beating him because i am talented. Pretty dumb. Same applies for Poes gary stu flying skill. But they say hes the best so i kind of buy it and he has years of military training.
Goal Posts...
Shifted...
Repeatedly...
It doesn't matter if the Jedi understood the prophecy, what matters is that the prophecy was fulfilled. And it's been stated, by creators, that the prophecy was real, it was about Anakin, the Jedi interpreted incorrectly, but it was still fulfilled. And you know this to be fact. Which is why you're sitting here trying to craft ridiculously strict criteria to try to prove that something you don't like isn't real.
My statement was that the Force is Fate in Star Wars and it always has been since it's inception. Your challenge was "find something in the script that specifically states that!" as if that's at all a reasonable thing. Then I show you a direct quote from TPM acknowledges Prophecy and thus Fate as well as a script draft from a New Hope that does the same, it's not good enough for your particular stringent requirements. And while you're telling me that those quotes don't mean anything because they're not direct dialogue statements that blatantly say the words that I'm using... you talk about camera framing and film language as if it carries weight. Like, your own statements don't meet your criteria. Do you not see how ridiculous that is?
But sure.. let's talk about Vader being conflicted... let's talk about conveying the shift in the character.... and please explain how any of that actually refutes Fate, seeing as how Fates existence would mean that all of those things were always going to happen.
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The Force has multiple facets to it. There is the more personal level which is the living force which is that mystical energy in all things. Then there is the Cosmic Force which in a way is essentially the God aspect of the force. The Cosmic force is the layer that more or less controls balance etc.
Regardless of where you stand with the lore, we can all agree that Ahsoka is the best. Right friends?
It's funny how dipshits keep repeating the "hurr durr you only have a problem with Rey cuz she's a gurl" argument, completely ignoring that Ahsoka is universally beloved by the fanbase. Maybe it's, I dunno, the writing and not the character's gender.
Yeah, Rey likely is stronger than Ben tbh. Hell, she might even be stronger than Anakin Skywalker.
And as valid as those arguments are, people will call you a sexist because you don't accept it.
Regardless of where you stand with the lore, we can all agree that Ahsoka is the best. Right friends?
Hell yeah. Ahsoka is one of the best Star Wars characters introduced into the franchise.
They better give me Ahsoka meeting Luke, Ben and Leia in the EU.
Yep.
I can kinda get on board with the idea that the force has a passive will and that Jedi/Light Side/Uncorrupted force users seek harmony with this will. Conversely, the Sith/Dark Side/Corrupted force users subvert the force for their own usage outside of the will of the force.
That's my own head canon though and I've always preferred the idea that there's just the force and it's either corrupted or non-corrupted in its use.
That's my own head canon though and I've always preferred the idea that there's just the force and it's either corrupted or non-corrupted in its use.
i dunno, it maybe that she has several hours dedicated to her development???
stop trying to compare a character from the flms when you are only taking the films into account to a tv series character
even Ezra is better developed than Luke in that case
You used a ROUGH DRAFT, which is not the script of the film. This is intellectually dishonest. It doesn't appear in the script of the film, it was removed.
Just because I mentioned the OT doesn't mean I moved goalposts.
So let me ask you again: can you please provide evidence from the script of the films that supports the argument of "free choice is an illusion, the Force controls everything"?
Or is it too unreasonable to request that you support your argument?
Hint: if you have to resort to outside interviews and explanations instead of letting the films speak for themselves, you're making a poor argument.
Apparently obvious directorial cues and direct dialogue is irrelevant.
I think this is a large part of how its actually viewed. The Jedi seek to work in harmony with the force. The Sith seek to control and twist the force to their will.
Comes into play with the idea too that Jedi in death can become one with the force while the Sith are essentially cast to "force hell" of non existence which is why the sith seek a way to cheat death
I think his general point is valid ... George Lucas writes characters from a place of mythology not "video game power level" characters. Darth Maul is doomed to fail because that his part of the story, it's not "Darth Maul loses because his midicholorian powers and black belt Jedi training is only 70% of Obi-Wan".
Yeah, you're either trolling or you have zero understanding of the concepts of Fate and Destiny.
It's definitely a weird place but that's where Lucas took it. It does follow it's own logic though. It's just not a logic that people are inclined to believe because we've been taught all our lives about potential rather than, say, "Your Grandfather was a Postal Worker, your Father was a Postal Worker, so all you'll ever be is a Postal Worker." Instead we're taught that we can be nearly anything we want if we try hard enough. And that's an awesome thing to teach for real life. But a fictional world works by the rules that have been set there. Even if those rules clash with what we are taught, believe, and are reality in the real world.
As to you second paragraph, all I can do is shrug. Not everyone that takes inspiration from something does the full deep dive to really know it. And sometimes they do but still simply pick and choose what they like out of it and ditch the rest.
What I think is that Lucas wrote ANH with the intent on keeping the Force as mysterious as possible. So even his wise and knowledgeable character never delves deeply into details. Kenobi is a Gandalf-like character from a writer who didn't flesh out his entire Universe before he started writing like Tolkien did. And since then, he's refined his concepts and filled in that Universe slowly. So large concepts stuck around while minor details shifted or were outright left by the wayside. We can't act like dialogue in ANH were seeds to come to fruition later because they weren't. But we can look at the larger themes, ideas, and concepts in ANH because those are what shaped the Universe as he continued developing it.
That poster is well aware of that. They just want to stick with the, "it must be explicitly blatantly stated in the films!" argument.
Yup.Regardless of where you stand with the lore, we can all agree that Ahsoka is the best. Right friends?
Also FP Jr. Is right, stop being mad folks because your headcanon is false.
Even someone with higher potential can beat someone with lower potential depending on the circumstances buuuut Lucas is the one who brought midichlorian and power level talk to Star Wars.
I'm really tired of fans always being put into quotation marks. They're fucking fans, get over it.
I fucking hate that shit. It's the worst kind of entitlement.