LebGuns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,131
Saw this on Reddit last night and thought a lot of people on here might find the discussion in the AMA enlightening. A former Sony employee (r/Vita mod vetted) who worked in close proximity to the vita reveals a lot of fascinating information about Sony. I'll post some choice Qs and As below, but I encourage you all to read the whole thread. Not sure if this is posted before, so close me down like I'm the PS3/Vita storefront if old.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/vita/comme...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Q:Why is it that Sony dropped first party support? There were so many games on PS3/4 that could've gotten decent ports that would've really rocked (eg Unreal 3 games) but the number of games that really show what it's capable of is quite small.

A:The ROI just wasn't there. Market penetration was weak. While they made an earnest effort to make games in the beginning, when those numbers didn't improve they stopped investing.

The PS3 outsold the Vita about 4:1 and the PS4 outsold the Vita about 5:1. As a Vita fan it sucks, but Sony as a Business was targeting areas where sales potential was higher and mostly left the Vita to third party partners. They still made money on every sale so they were largely happy with accepting it as passive income for most of the Vita's lifecycle.

Q:The Vita firmware has been compromised now for almost 5 years. Is Sony planning to target users of modified firmwares and ban them?

Are they even capable of detecting modified firmwares or unusual activity?

A: They have good telemetry, specifically when you're playing a game you don't have a license for. They also have telemetry to see the names of apps you're running. In other words, yes they know who those people are.

Whether they'll do anything is another question altogether. If they ban your account you can create a new one. If they ban your console you can buy a new one. They think of it like an endless game of whack-a-mole and it's just not a wise use of their resources. Never say never, though.

Q: This is pretty interesting.

Some insight on the Sony disabling the ability for devs to put their games on sale would be interesting to hear about. Seems like the poor choice, but if they had this store closure planned far ahead that makes some sense. Thoughts?

Any other behind the scenes info on Sony's opinions of the Vita would be interesting too.

Thanks for doing this!

A: Killing the Vita has been in the cards since 2016 or 2017. I'd wager that both the store shutdown and nixing the sales ability are steps to get people off the platform, just as the cessation of manufacturing carts/consoles.

Sony views the Vita as a failure. It missed pretty much every sales target they had and for a for-profit business that's about as bad as it gets. They were content with it as a small stream of passive income, but when the firmware was broken they were nailing the coffin.

It had some strong proponents internally, especially on the JP side, but that just served as a "told you so" in the culture wars Sony's been not-so-quietly having for the past decade.

Q: Could you shed light on their culture of IP abandonment? Sony has a wealth of dead franchises and legacy content that they seemingly do not care to bring forward. Was Backwards Compatibility as little used as Jim Ryan claimed? Who made the choice for the proprietary memory card on the vita? Was the unused top port on the vita going to be used for HDMI Out?
Thanks for the AMA!

A: Certain IP has more value in a cultural sense than it does in a market sense. I know it's not Sony, but look at Metroid for a comparison. That franchise is critical to the history of games, but it's sold 20 Million copies throughout its life. The most recent Animal Crossing game outsold that entire franchise. Sony is a business and they care first and foremost about where the money is, not where the sentiment is.

Backwards compatibility is one of the most requested and least used features. I don't know what Jim specifically said about how little it was used, but that is true by the numbers we had.

The proprietary memory card was a hack deterrent. I don't know the name of the specific person who made the decision, but that was the rationale.

HDMI out was one of the prototypes for the accessory port but there was some software issue they needed to work out still. I don't know the full details of what that software issue was but needless to say it never made it to the top of their priority list.

Q: Do you have any insight on what's going on (or already happened) with Sony essentially throwing all of Japan under the bus more recently? Has the US branch taken over the company entirely somehow? And, if so, why and how did the Japanese allow that?

Also, does Sony at all understand their appeal in terms of Japanese game software? Because the more I see them do anything this past generation and currently, the more I think they could be incompetently unaware.

A: There's a lot to it, some I'm going to simplify it at the cost of some nuance.

Playstation is a historically Japanese brand. In the time since Playstation debuted, America has grown to be the largest video game market. There's been a lot of internal competition for the "control" of the Playstation brand and over the past several years you can clearly see where America has been winning. Relocation of HQ, shutdown of most of Japan Studios, and the DualSense's X default confirm (as a final "fuck you") are some of the notable examples off the top of my head.

Most of this took place far above my level - think officers and the like.
 
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Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,049
This person refers to himself as a 'fellow Islander' it this referring to him being Japanese?
 

MykonosFan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
844
This person refers to himself as a 'fellow Islander' it this referring to him being Japanese?
There's a meme about "Vita Island" that's gone on for a while now. Don't exactly remember but I think the joke is that there's only a small island's worth of people still invested in their Vita.
 

Hexa

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,756
This person refers to himself as a 'fellow Islander' it this referring to him being Japanese?

It's a joke among people who are still Vita fans. The Vita sunk and the few fans that still exist are now trapped on a deserted island. Something like that.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,049
There's a meme about "Vita Island" that's gone on for a while now. Don't exactly remember but I think the joke is that there's only a small island's worth of people still invested in their Vita.
It's a joke among people who are still Vita fans. The Vita sunk and the few fans that still exist are now trapped on a deserted island. Something like that.

Ah , thank you.
 

Imitatio

Member
Feb 19, 2018
14,560
Yeah, expected information.
And it reminded me of the X - O button issue again, totally forgot about that!
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,265
was it already publicly known that sony had disabled the ability for devs to put their vita games on sale?
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,764
Really makes the internal conflict within Sony seem like Sega in the 1990s, with the Vita playing the role of the modern day 32X in reverse.
 

WetWaffle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,626
So Sony didn't even have a legitimate reason for switching the confirm and cancel button in japan? It was just bs internal politics. Strange how Nintendo doesn't seem to have this problem where regional employees are trying to snuff each other out for supremacy.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,442
The thing about people wanting to do AMAs about their old company is they probably weren't that high up to know anything special.

I immediately get suspicious whenever a single person starts providing answers to a very wide array of questions about their alleged former company - the kind of very broad inside baseball knowledge that only someone pretty high up the totem pole would likely have to begin with. The kind that ain't doing a Reddit AMA.

Take their commentary on the Japan/America culture war stuff - that comes off very much as them just presenting reasonable speculation as knowledge.
 

Jon Carter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,746
Q:Why is it that Sony dropped first party support? There were so many games on PS3/4 that could've gotten decent ports that would've really rocked (eg Unreal 3 games) but the number of games that really show what it's capable of is quite small.

A:The ROI just wasn't there. Market penetration was weak. While they made an earnest effort to make games in the beginning, when those numbers didn't improve they stopped investing.

The last big first-party Vita game to deliver on their original promise, Killzone Mercenary, was greenlit before the console even launched. How earnest was their effort really?
 

Rowsdower

Shinra Employee of The Wise Ones
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,910
Canada
I mean, a lot of this makes sense and was known beforehand I think, through general actions and other insiders. Sony knew/saw the Vita was a failure and stopped paying attention to it, this was obvious years ago. I think the Vita store being shut down back in 2017 was mentioned by another dev on Twitter as well.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,265
So Sony didn't even have a legitimate reason for switching the confirm and cancel button in japan? It was just bs internal politics. Strange how Nintendo doesn't seem to have this problem where regional employees are trying to snuff each other out for supremacy.

that's because it happened 20 years ago. when iwata came into power, he closed all the relationships with us companies from the n64 era and turned noa into a marketing branch for ncl instead of the semi-autonomous thing it was in the 90s under arakawa.
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Seems like the kind of info that an average rank-and-file employee would know rather than anything particularly confidential or surprising. Still it's interesting to get some degree of confirmation on things that have been speculated about.
 

WetWaffle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,626
that's because it happened 20 years ago. when iwata came into power, he closed all the relationships with us companies from the n64 era and turned noa into a marketing branch for ncl instead of the semi-autonomous thing it was in the 90s under arakawa.
That's interesting. Thanks, didn't know that. In Sony's case, I'll just say the wrong side won.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,998
that's because it happened 20 years ago. when iwata came into power, he closed all the relationships with us companies from the n64 era and turned noa into a marketing branch for ncl instead of the semi-autonomous thing it was in the 90s under arakawa.
Right and didn't some notable NOA staff move to Xbox then too?
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,155
Montreal
So Sony didn't even have a legitimate reason for switching the confirm and cancel button in japan? It was just bs internal politics. Strange how Nintendo doesn't seem to have this problem where regional employees are trying to snuff each other out for supremacy.

Unified UI/UX for developers across every region is a legitimate reason. Don't have to like it though.
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
It's crazy how much of a flop the vita was. Probably caused Sony never to dip their toe in that market ever again...despite the psp selling really well prior to it.
 

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,160
I get putting an american face on your brand in the US, but why would they basically trash their home market. But I guess this is only their games department.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,265
It's crazy how much of a flop the vita was. Probably caused Sony never to dip their toe in that market ever again...despite the psp selling really well prior to it.

i don't think it was intentional sabotage, but siea lost their taste for handheld gaming once it was clear it would play second place to the ds. it didn't even sell poorly. but the effort they put into it from 2005-2006 is clearly different than 2007 onward.
 

shoptroll

Member
May 29, 2018
3,680
So Sony didn't even have a legitimate reason for switching the confirm and cancel button in japan? It was just bs internal politics. Strange how Nintendo doesn't seem to have this problem where regional employees are trying to snuff each other out for supremacy.

Traditionally NOA has very little autonomy. If NoJ decides something the other arms of the company have to roll with it. The regional offices exist primarily for marketing, distribution, and localization.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
It's been a while in the making but when I left there still wasn't a concrete date. As soon as firmware was broken in 2016 or 2017 it was on the chopping block. After the nightmare that was the 2011 hack, Sony's terrified of the word "hack" or any potential network intrusions. Fun fact: the PSP was actually planned to have trophies until that firmware was broken and they dropped it like a hot potato.

I'm not surprised people weren't informed. Sony is composed of these weird silos that people just don't communicate outside of. The right hand doesn't know what the left is doing, as the expression goes.

Interesting stuff in the reddit AMA.
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,650
I thought the HQ moved to EU? The US branch is leading? I remember how hype the reveal of the Vita was, but without Monster Hunter to keep you afloat at least in JP land, well...
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,713
Malaysia
Developers didn't seem to have a problem with it for the last 4 generations, or at least there was no significant response. Why now?

Not true. I've played dozens of games released in Asia last gen that do not have a standardized approach to the O/X methodology.

So there's western games in Asia that has X/O, some has O/X, Sony games all follow O/X, some Japanese games with western localization shift to X/O even though the original Japanese release was O/X.

Sony had terrible quality control in ensuring 3rd-party games followed O/X in Asia, and a lot of devs just took their western version of the game and localized it ala carte with X/O.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,888
Japan
The frustrating thing about O/X is that it should be easier for adults to rest their finger on the circle button. I guess that can't make up for people not being used to it though.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,163
If Panasonic released a $500 powerful Nintendo system and had some former Japan Studio employees running it/developing games for it... I'd be there day 1!
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,508
Australia
Not true. I've played dozens of games released in Asia last gen that do not have a standardized approach to the O/X methodology.

So there's western games in Asia that has X/O, some has O/X, Sony games all follow O/X, some Japanese games with western localization shift to X/O even though the original Japanese release was O/X.

Sony had terrible quality control in ensuring 3rd-party games followed O/X in Asia, and a lot of devs just took their western version of the game and localized it ala carte with X/O.
That sound's like an issue that could be fixed with the SDK. Just have the games poll for the confirm/cancel buttons and the onscreen prompts are handled by the OS.
 

Faenix1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,115
Canada
See. This is where I get annoyed the most.

If the store closures have been planned since 2017, THEN FUCKING TELL US THEN.
I would of bought all the games I wanted, backed up everything, bought an extra ps3 if needed, a long ass time ago. Not when I have a couple months to figure this shit out, before it's a giant pain in the ass. (That download list is nightmare fuel)
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,713
Malaysia
That sound's like an issue that could be fixed with the SDK. Just have the games poll for the confirm/cancel buttons and the onscreen prompts are handled by the OS.

I'm no SDK expert and I dunno how interlinked visuals related to button prompts are separated. Anyway, either way, they didn't do that and what we got was instead alignment to X/O for all regions.
 

KamenSenshi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,894
was it already publicly known that sony had disabled the ability for devs to put their vita games on sale?
Yeah I've seen this around for a while. Basically nothing has been on sale ps3 or vita for a couple years with the vita store not even updating to show new software for like a year or something up until a few months ago.
While I guess it's good to get some confirmation on the rest, it's been pretty obvious for a while on most things especially the regional battle. X to confirm being super obvious and then all the other stuff with Japan studio.
I remember people not liking that NoJ was gonna be calling all the shots but it made total sense then, considering Sega, and has worked out great overall.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,302
Right and didn't some notable NOA staff move to Xbox then too?
The most notable person who moved to MS was Ken Lobb (producer of Rare games, Rogue Squadron, Prime 1 and Starcraft 64). I'm sure some other people did.

From Emily's excellent article on GameCube:
Ken Lobb said,"I have infinite respect for Mr. Arakawa and Mr. Lincoln and it was awesome to see them get the lifetime achievement awards. Extremely well deserved. If Mr. Arakawa had not left Nintendo, I would probably still be there today." He explains,"When I was at Nintendo–especially when it was Howard [Lincoln], Peter [Main] and Mr. Arakawa–they were such great guys. I have infinite respect for them, they really understood the industry, maybe better than anyone else in the world. Having them leave changed what Nintendo was like, especially when Mr. Arakawa left. I didn't even look for this job. It was offered to me by a friend."


In a separate interview, Lobb explained that he had already seen the games that Nintendo was bringing to GameCube before they were revealed to the public. Based on what he saw, he wasn't very confident in the GameCube's future.


"I was spending, from the launch of Xbox and GameCube, 35-40 percent of my time on PS2, 45 percent on the Xbox, and barely touching my GameCube. And knowing what the portfolio was going to be on the GameCube this year and going way out, I decided that I didn't want to do this again. I did it on the N64 and it was hard. Having seen that that was going to be that–or was going to be worse, I said forget it. I'm tired of second-class third-party ports and I'm tired of first-party games spread way out," said Lobb.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,899
I can understand the push-pull between sentiment and sales. Obviously sales need to come first. However, I think it is a horrible mistake to completely ignore the sentiment side of things. I suspect there are intangible factors tied to that sentiment angle, that aren't necessarily easy to track, that help sales in general. Like, a variety of well-liked games helps build the prestige of a brand. Sure, some of those games may not make nearly as much money if they are more niche, but they will still build their own dedicated fanbases (if the game is of a high quality) and help fill out a console's roster of games. Basically, I worry that Sony has forgotten how to play a little small ball here and there, and has instead fallen in love with the home run.
 
The most notable person who moved to MS was Ken Lobb (producer of Rare games, Rogue Squadron, Prime 1 and Starcraft 64). I'm sure some other people did.

From Emily's excellent article on GameCube:
Considering how chummy MS and Nintendo have gotten, I wonder how Lobb feels about where Nintendo is at today. Granted, I doubt he'd go back to NOA since they're clearly not the same arm of the company that they were back when he was there, but the Switch has been a complete turnaround on all the issues he had with them back then.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,508
Australia
I'm no SDK expert and I dunno how interlinked visuals related to button prompts are separated. Anyway, either way, they didn't do that and what we got was instead alignment to X/O for all regions.
The PS4 had remappable buttons so the OS was already in-between the inputs and the game. As for the display it could just be an if else statement depending on the consoles region settings. Like how apps can have light/dark modes depending on system settings.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
I found this part very interesting

A: Certain IP has more value in a cultural sense than it does in a market sense. I know it's not Sony, but look at Metroid for a comparison. That franchise is critical to the history of games, but it's sold 20 Million copies throughout its life. The most recent Animal Crossing game outsold that entire franchise. Sony is a business and they care first and foremost about where the money is, not where the sentiment is.


Because it's absolutely true. I know there are people with fond memories of Medieval, Ape Escape, Soul Sacrifice, etc but they just won't sell and they don't have the cultural sentiment that make them worthwhile to bring back.
 

Chirotera

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,302
It's interesting that their proprietary memory cards were meant as a hack/piracy deterrent, as that's probably the thing that most sunk the system.
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,354
Sony won't do basic shit like making a useful web Store, but they have the resources to hunt my hacked Vita.

Yeah, seems about right.

It's interesting that their proprietary memory cards were meant as a hack/piracy deterrent, as that's probably the thing that most sunk the system.
Vita customers: "Why would someone spend so much money on simple 4GB cards, when SD ones are so cheap and usable?"
Sony: "Uhh, piracy?"

Getting a SD2Vita is one of the best purchases I have made in a long time.