FF6 is the best classical Final Fantasy and FF7 is the best modern Final Fantasy. You see everyone got a cookie.
Totally being facetious there bud. But VII is better. The characters in VI are lame and Kefka is a scrub.Actual hot take: Comparing Final Fantasy VI to VII is a timeless proxy for people who are actually interested in talking about something else; Nintendo v Playstation, Classic Gaming v Modern Gaming, Expressive Pixels v "Cinematic Experiences," Early 90s Nostalgia v Late 90s Nostalgia, etc.
Anyone with good taste can appreciate that both are exceptionally well made games that aspired to very different design goals, and such a person of refined taste probably has no need to state their "controversial" preference or pit one against the other for the validation of others online ;)
My absolute favorite part of any conversation is when someone starts whipping out the word "objectively" to describe something that fundamentally subjective.
You can't equate Final Fantasy to Persona. C'mon man. I get where you're coming from, but FF VII is just a better overall game than VI. It's okay to be wrong sometimes.Considering that FFVI didn't even release on SNES in europe, and that FF got a big boost in popularity with VII, I doubt "a lot of people" have as much nostalgia for VI than VII.
VI is objectively a better game (storytelling & gameplay at the very least).
It's like the number of people saying Persona 3 is better than 2 despite never having played 2, or only a small portion of it way later. You can find that for a lot of games in that genre (SMT, Dragon Quest, etc).
You described FF VII as being like gangser rap or MTV attitude and VI as more imaginative. So it sounded like you were saying FF lost its imagination and sold out like people do when bands starts becoming popular. A generic statement for olders fans of any media, and sorry it's got a bit more prententous with "lost its innocence" and I'm not trying hard to say why VII is better, just my thoughts. I also found the transition very natural to a neo world after the magictek and high tech Vector in VI's. Nothing was lost. It made the beautiful areas like the glacier, forests and canyons stand out more. VI wad already getting grittier with Kefka's massacres.None of this contrast the fact that VII is much more appealing to the common man than VI's. I never said they were BAD. I said they were easier to accept because they're familiar in taste, to a wider array of people. I'm not saying your opinion has no place. I'm saying why VI wins out for me, over VII.
I actually find it funny you're trying so hard to just place VII as "better", really. Being subversive and breaking down established genre norms was unique for each product that did it, but it was also a big, common trope that was imitated to death and back around the time Evangelion hit the scene. On their own, these products were unique VS their direct competitors. Together, the mass scrapping of purity and kindness, in the name of cynicism and grimier themes, was exhaustive to some. But that doesn't mean the pure, or the subversive were straight BETTER products, objectively. One just fit the audience current taste better at the time.
I find it funny when people use "Generic" to describe something that basically set the standard. VI's towns were the best of the old taste, and were endlessly copied after that. It's "Generic" because 2000 Kemco RPGs copy the template they set. Zozo still remains one of my favorite towns in an RPG, because the idea of "Evil Mega-Hotel that's as vicious as the world map" just shook me at the time. I still think Figaro Castle being able to travel underground is one of the most nonsensically cool things ever. Just like we were all taken aback by Midgar having cars and huge structures powered by a Mako reactor.
It's not JUST "Cool and anarchistic", but it still IS, right? Just like Spawn isn't JUST conveniently designed to mimic Deadpool and Spiderman. But that doesn't mean the element doesn't exist. And that doesn't mean the familiarity didn't help the character become a very recognizable one, with many people that would have disliked comics by anything NOT DC or Marvel back then.
A lot of factors go into something's popularity. Some are directly on purpose, some are luck, and others lie right in the middle. We could argue that FFVII's narrative wouldn't have been as striking, if Square didn't have to censor older FF's for hard, for instance. The sexual themes of 7 wouldn't have seemed so against the grain, if the implications that Cyan was looking at porn when he banished himself to the mountains, wasn't watered down in FFVI. Or if the women that toss off their clothes in FF Mystic Quest weren't censored. But partially because Nintendo helped us think that all JRPGs were kid friendly, 7's sudden harshness and perceived maturity were even stronger in the west, than they would have been JUST by having 3D and Best in Class CG.
And that's your right. Which is cool! And I'm sure many agreed. I'm sure I even agreed back then. Very few RPGs had you play characters that were closer to being "Anti Heroes" at the time. Aerith was a character we all thought couldn't die. Palom and Polum? SURE! Cyan's Elain and Owain? Harsh, but ok! But the sweetest main party member? IMPOSSIBLE! It was a fresh perspective compared to many RPGS...
… but like I also said, for me, when 8 was still fresh, I would have traded all that for not having to do similar things with Squall. At the point, it seemed to me as if RPGs were going to abandon the whimsical, light hearted tone, and take on cynical, "mature", gritty ones. I liked VI's brand of maturity, and it felt more nuanced than what I was getting out of VII and VIII, personally. I hated that gaming was becoming something that people identified as closer to GTA, rather than closer to Sonic the Hedgehog and Mario. And I still dislike games that skew that direction, more than others.
I don't really get why you and Mekanos are acting as if I'm saying my opinion is the law by which all the other FF opinions should be based. I never said that. It's snobbish If I'm saying "You're all stupid for liking TRASH like VII, VI did everything better, #TRUTHFACT!" which I'm not. I'm saying, again personally, that the things VII did, didn't fit my taste as well, but they had massive western and general audience appeal at the time. This was further exaggerated by VIII doubling down on many of those "new" tropes early on. VI better for me because it's still got a world and narrative I'm more happy to re-digest. It (and Chrono Trigger) pretty much are the definition of what I want out of RPGs.
Did I EVER say they couldn't fit your taste? Or did I say I was the factual outlook that others should model their opinions by? Nope!
I definitely don't see how it's a "Generic" implication. I don't even think most would agree with my assessment that Squall and Cloud were too similar. Though you could think I was being contrary just to be cool. I know I feel the EXACT OPPOSITE of most gamers now-a-days. I have no hype for Last of Us 2, and what I've played of God of War series since it's creations equals to minutes able to be counted on 1 hand. Their worlds and attitudes don't fit my taste. And a lot of that is because the gameplay snippets are surrounded by storytelling and narrative styles that I not only don't want to have to go through a 2nd play of, I don't even want to go through them a 1st time. When a Movie Theater audience cheers for a character saying something like "You're G___D__ right I'm the F___ BEST!" or such, I'm cringing and rolling my eyes at what I feel is low brow and immature. There's things people will rally behind and see as the BEST part of an experience, that I find distasteful. Those elements make a product worse and less appealing to me.
BUT, without PSX making things like FFVII, Grand Theft Auto, and Resident Evil acceptable, we wouldn't have things like The Last of Us, Red Dead, or Drake's Uncharted. Those early games made the global market accept mannerisms and personalities that gaming wasn't associated with, at the time. They had traits that were more like Holywood movies, adult Anime, and contemporary classics that could win Academy Awards.
Thus, a bunch of people that wouldn't even THINK they would be called "Gamers", became ones almost overnight. FFVII and it's ilk assisted in a huge cultural impact, were instrumental in the tonal shift of gaming as a whole, and as a bonus, endeared Square to a bunch of new fans that wouldn't pay them the time of day before.
But for me, the loss of that innocence in gaming still hurts. For better or worse, I liked it when gaming didn't have to mingle with things like excessive swearing and overly sexual themes, in order to draw crowds. Not because I hate these things 100%, as I was watching things like Dominion Tank Police on Showtime, or snippets of the Fist of the North Start Movie on the International Film Channel back then, whenever given the chance. I just personally prefer when what would eventually become the norms for AAA games, was instead the exception. If that's "Snobbish", then... ok.
Being "mainstream and cool" and "interesting and artistic" are not mutually exclusive from each other. Something CAN be BOTH. It's pretty rare for something to be able to hit each, but FFVII hit the perfect storm where it could be, and be excellent at both. It's probably the singular most important release for Japanese-created RPGs that will ever exist, on a global scale.
But that doesn't make it impossible for one to say they'd rather play through and get lost in the world of VI again over it.
So... we cool now? :) Is it clear I'm not attacking your, or anyones right to like VII, just explaining why it still sits under VI, for me?
Absolutely am.
-Game is, without exaggeration, a full-on corridor broken up by cutscenes for a majority of its runtime
-Only two even remotely fleshed out characters in the entire game, if not one
-Combat system is strong on paper but devolves into the same 2-3 enemy compositions with the same pseudo-puzzle solutions
-Sphere grid is a mess (see Path of Exile for a game that perfected that concept much later)
-Equipment system is a mess (all the bad of FFIX with none of the good and then sanded down of anything remotely interesting for good measure)
-Cloister of trials segments are horrendous (see bevelle)
-Blitzball is a massive step down from triple triad or even tetra master
-Fairly homogeneous and gaudy artstyle that shows Nomura's worst tendencies starting to go into overdrive
Has a lot of good ideas, and the overall narrative isn't bad but I'm playing through it currently and it's as boring as pre-XIII FF games get and leaves almost no room for exploration or player expression. The boss fights are probably the only gameplay element I'd bother to praise because some of those get pretty ingenious admittedly and do more with the combat system than the typical structure of: FAST WOLF (Tidus), ARMOUR BEAST (Auron), FLYING BOI (Wakka) that make up 50% of fights in the game. Add in a magic monster or some al bhed machines if you feel a bit spicy but it's effectively no different save for who you swap in. All the combat design tends to do is make everything take longer than it needs to once you learn the optimal approach.
Don't really think it's a bad game, but I'd 100% put it down as one of the worst FF games. FFVIII might get way dumber, and other games in the series may have worse pacing but none of them coalesce into the sheer vanilla composite that FFX does. It's just there, coasting on its technical achievements and being thoroughly mediocre just like it was when it came out.
One of them has snowboarding, motorcycle arcade machines, chocobo racing/breeding, and a more endearing cast of characters. And the other doesn't.
how is that false exactly?This is completely false on almost every level.
The Chocobo part I'll let slide.
"a more endearing cast of characters"
I'd say FF5 is the best "classical" Final Fantasy.FF6 is the best classical Final Fantasy and FF7 is the best modern Final Fantasy. You see everyone got a cookie.
Woolsey's original localization isn't perfect, either. He was still just one man on a tight deadline. Just like Chrono Trigger benefited from the script change of its DS port, FFVI could use the same treatment.Many FF games are better than VII, but yeah VI is one of my favorites in the series.
I probably would have a more nostalgic view of VII now if the original release didn't have such a half-assed localization and I didn't hate the graphical style they chose to go with, but it is what it is.
you're always entitled to your wrong opinions, and I know there's no convincing you, but i'd like to point the staggering conflations in them.
* First of all, what the hell is up with all the hate towards linear games just for the fact that they're linear? It's not like it was done for giggles; it serves the story and just adds up to the whole world building aspects.
*X Combat is the essence of JRPGs. It's smart, different, and strategic. The sphere grid is integrated tightly with it, and the options of different "classes" and its "messiness" on the grid is to encourage you to utilize all characters early on and branch out later on.
*Two fleshed out characters? That's just wrong. Say you don't like them. And the point about homogenous style literally makes no sense.
No Final Fantasy game is designed to drag you so strongly into its own world; with its systems, philosophy, languages, and mythos. No FF game develops its characters main in a convincing way, I mean I dare you to say you don't respect FFX's Yuna. How the flip do you create such a complex 16yo character?!
No FF game explored religious dogmatism to the fullest, in a way that directly parallels the real world. Btw, FFX was the main reason I became agnostic. Few games have that effect on people.
As far as i asked the friends who are stil gaming, most never tried to give 6 a try. They tend to say=it is a nintendo game, which is why the story cant be fleshed out.Come on, you can prefer 6 without making such generalizations. To each his own.
I played all (non-MMO) FFs and VII is my favorite. I enjoyed 6 a lot, but it is not in my top 3.
Personally I think VII excels at story, visual and audio design. Gameplay is not the best in the series, but serviceable.
That doesn't work because VI was realeased on a lot of platforms. VII got ps and pc.Yeah, yeah, the one released on the company's platform that I like is cooler than the one released on rival.
The major difference between VI and VII is that halfway through VI all hope is lost. You have to rebuild after everything has been destroyed. You get to a point where you feel unstoppable, and are then stopped dead in your tracks. It's unlike anything ever seen in Final Fantasy and It's rare even to this day for any JRPG to make you feel completely hopeless and lost like VI does. It's anything but "cliche."The story isn't better, the anti pollution themes of VII are really interesting and the game is less cliched. Cloud's indentity crisis, Aeris being the last of her people but her heroism being after death, Sephiroth not even talking to you in the final boss, the game has been copied by so many JRPG's but is subversive and its themes more relevant even now. President Shinra is uncannily Trump. VI has a brilliant twist with Kefka but isn't better. VI's plucky heroes can be cute but are from a more cliched mould than VII's perceived terrorists.
I did and I didn't like either one. Chrono Trigger is far better than bothThis feels like a nostalgia war.
Is there no one that has played both these games for the first time recently who isn't heavily affected by their fond childhood memories?
Could a majority of the localizations from that time period have been better in some way?Woolsey's original localization isn't perfect, either. He was still just one man on a tight deadline. Just like Chrono Trigger benefited from the script change of its DS port, FFVI could use the same treatment.
There's no defending VII's localization, but I think VI's gets way too much of a pass in kind.
Many of the characters definitely have revenge against Kefka and the empire too so that revenge sly against VII just sounds made up for the sake of criticism.The major difference between VI and VII is that halfway through VI all hope is lost. You have to rebuild after everything has been destroyed. You get to a point where you feel unstoppable, and are then stopped dead in your tracks. It's unlike anything ever seen in Final Fantasy and It's rare even to this day for any JRPG to make you feel completely hopeless and lost like VI does. It's anything but "cliche."
The best parts of VII are simply a revenge/redemption story. All of the characters hate Shinra/Sephiroth and want to protect the planet because of their own personal reasons. Cloud for money intitially, but later for Zack, Aerith and for them exposing him to Mako and making him their puppet. Barret for Marlene and Dyne, Yuffie for all of Wutai and the war Shinra raged on it.... Cid and the space program, Vincent and the Turks, Aerith and how the Turks/Shinra conducted research on her.... It goes on and on. It doesn't hold a candle to VI.
A lot of what you said about VII is from VI.. Terra is one of the last of her race if not the only half human half esper alive. Avalanche are the Returners who are a terrorist group that oppse the empire, The Shinra Power Company is just another empire that needs to be stopped that sucks the souls out of the planet... Celes goes through a major identity crisis as does Setzer... But then there's a ton of other stories that all work together to create a more well rounded story. Edgar and Siban's sibling rivalry, Lock's dead wife in which he longs to revive, Cyan's entire kingdom is poisoned by Kefka, Gau's father threw him into the woods and left him to die, and Kefka himself is basically the predecessor of the Joker from the Dark Knight... VI has an incredible cast with unforgettable villains that actually win. I can't even remember the last time that the bad guys win besides maybe Xenoblade Chronicles or FFXV (sorta).
Oh and those "plucky" characters as you call them are dismantled entirely. They are destroyed so that they can be reborn. It's almost as if Square was making fun of the "happy go lucky", "good guys always win" characters found in all JRPGs of the time and beyond. You don't really even get to meet these characters until they have to rebuild their world and by then you know exactly why you're fighting for them.
You are correct, but the Megaman Vs Megaman X battles come pretty close.Threads like this just make me think how there's no other gaming fanbase more at war with itself than Final Fantasy.
5,6,8,9,10,12 and 15 are all better games. VII is not a good game. It's why the remake is changing so much gameplay wise.