Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"
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Jonathan Cooper: "After my years upon years of experience as a senior animator, contributing to the likes Uncharted 4 and the soon to be released The Last of Us II, I can safely assess that Naughty Dog has a horrendous culture of crunch that results in artists working extremely long and unhealthy hours that is so damagng to a person's health that it can lead to hospitalisation. It's so bad that they've developed a widely known reputation for poor work/life culture, strong enough to deter new, experienced talent from working at the company, and senior staff to leave for better work/life balance elsewhere. From my first hand experience this culture of crunch deterring experienced staff has lead to the studio being forced to hire many newer, fresher talent with significantly less experience in the interactive entertainment industry. While this is not a question of their own inherent talent and skills, nor their ability to contribute to the industry, it leads to a problematic production issue wherein tasks that could be completed within far more reasonable time schedules with lesser crunch are taking longer to complete due to this lack of experience, which is feeding into a cycle of crunch. In addition to this, many of these hires are contractual and casual, as is the culture of developer hiring in Los Angeles. And so, this feedback loop of crunch is twofold; lesser experienced developers are making the bulk of hire, taking longer to complete tasks, which is resulting in significant crunch to get these tasks completed, while said developers are also at a loss of full time working rights due to the contractual hiring, further pressuring the necessity to follow through with crunch. The end result are products that are industry leading in many fields of presentation, and the talent building these projects still worthy of recognition, but nevertheless developed under unacceptable working conditions that could not be prolonged if not for Sony's immense wealth and flexibility to delay titles until they're up to standard. We should probably address this problem in the industry, and in particular at acclaimed studios like Naughty Dog, for the betterment of developer health and work/life balance in the future."
Fanatical, deranged, cognitively impaired Naughty Dog fans: "BASED NAUGHTY GODS DO NO WRONG EAT SHIT COOPER FUCKING LOSER THE LAST OF US TWO GAME OF THE GENERATION BASED SONY"
Fanatical, deranged, cognitively impaired Naughty Dog fans: "BASED NAUGHTY GODS DO NO WRONG EAT SHIT COOPER FUCKING LOSER THE LAST OF US TWO GAME OF THE GENERATION BASED SONY"
He is one of the best for a start.
That's not the point though, it's game development, ofc you need juniors to get experience but at a company like ND it must be annoying having to spend half your time teaching instead of working.
It seems he is pretty much saying that you might as well pay more for experienced developers, so you have less cruch and a shorter development cycle. Which would cost just as much at the end of the line.
Can't argue with that.
Can't argue with that.
I'm sure anyone in his position would feel the same. It's natural to want to work with people just as talented as you.
Aren't they a European studio? That would mean working conditions would be a lot better and a lot cheaper at the same time.
Let's not pretend that It isn't worse in the gaming industry.
When news came out that suicide rates were high in the Foxconn plant that made iPhones, the media and consumer outcry forced Apple to influence Foxconn to improve welfare in the factories and automate more processes.
Here and on Twitter, many people are leaping to the defense of developers that impose immense stress on their staff. All they care about is the games.
They have a long internal supply chain and something like four more employee than equivalent publisher.
So Herman do something now.
Ubisoft Quebec talked about crunch a bit around Odyssey.
Also possibly worth noting, multiple Ubisoft studios are usually doing additional work for their games. Like in the case of the Odyssey, Quebec got help from Ubisoft Montreal, Ubisoft Bucharest, Ubisoft Singapore, Ubisoft Shanghai, Ubisoft Chengdu, Ubisoft Kiev, Ubisoft Philippines and Sperasoft. Ubisoft doesn't make these games with talent alone either.
I mean, isn't no 'mandatory crunch' the same thing in ND and many other AAA studio?
Last year he won a trophy for working for Naughty Dog for 5 years and now, all of a sudden, he acts like he was treated like shit. That guy is not credible at all in my opinion. He is just begging for attention just like a motherfuckin' politician. That Schreier guy is also an attention-seeker. So disgusting. Shaking my head...
None of that is true! I work for Naughty Dog. I am responsible for trimming Druckmann's beard and combing his hair. It's a tough job since both his beard and his hair are so fuckin' long but I've been able to manage it.
None of that is true! I work for Naughty Dog. I am responsible for trimming Druckmann's beard and combing his hair. It's a tough job since both his beard and his hair are so fuckin' long but I've been able to manage it.
Ubisoft have an army of developers spread all over the world.
How Ubisoft Makes So Many Assassin’s Creed Games
There has been one major new Assassin’s Creed game every year since 2007, except for the two years they skipped and the one year when they made two. It’s never been a secret that Ubisoft rotates teams, but it’s never been as clear how they do it until a talk given by the head of the franchise at...
kotaku.com
I think the difference is in actual laws. In the US in example, game developers are not subject to state laws governing overtime (except for California).
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I've worked at several game studios, none as acclaimed as Naughty Dog, and several animation studios. I'm sure ND's pedigree puts a significant level of pressure on both people considering applying for them, and the people who work there already. None of the places I worked had that kind of anticipation for their games, but it's amazing that conditions are the same for so many game and animation studios whether AAA, AA etc. with the same turnover rates, and the same handful of stories of hospitalization, all of it.
The way games get made, the toll it takes on the talented production team, all of it needs to change, and I know that's hardly a bold statement. But I just think about the last studio I was at, putting in 60 hour work weeks of "volunteer" overtime (in which it wasn't explicitly mandatory, but you wanted to be there to help the coworkers who were willing to stay to the point where the leads would make you feel guilty for being one of the handful who wouldn't stay late), trying being a beacon of optimism for my coworkers. A lot of us were proud of our games especially after all that work we put in, and they were games that reviewed mid-60s to high 80s and they weren't all best sellers. Of course it's worth the focus testing and doing what you can to ensure your game has broad appeal. You want to make sure all that hard work isn't for nothing, and that it gets appreciated. I hate the idea that some interpret that as appealing to the "lowest common denominator". What an awful take.
I feel like these sorts of articles and twitter threads precede most major releases at this point, and a common response is for people to be like "oh well I'm not buying that game now" or "not supporting that studio anymore", which is a fine and understandable reaction, but understand that this is a more complex issue than simply letting your wallet be your voice, and the work and skill that went into these titles still deserves appreciation and recognition, and above all respect, particularly with the working conditions. Stuff like THIS, the threads, the conversations they inspire once you weed through the fanboyism, and articles shining a light on the aspects of development that otherwise wouldn't be discussed does more to encourage change and fixing than not engaging with the end product.
I love the work Naughty Dog puts out, and I have many friends who work there currently and live for the environment because it works well with their productivity and strikes a work life balance that's comfortable for them. There are always people willing to put in that work but, damn, it doesn't have to, and shouldn't have to be that way. Changes need to happen at every facet of the industry; art, publishing, distributing, marketing, development, all of it. Release dates should be determined internally and not shared publicly or through marketing until a game is actually nearing completion, because the way it's handled now just puts so much money and pressure on meeting the deadlines once it's announced, with zero respect for the creative changes that can happen when things just don't come together quite how they were anticipated. Unionization needs to happen, it should have happened over a decade ago.
I still hope this particular game turns out well, because I want my friends' hard work to pay off for them, I know they deserve it. And I still want to play it both as a player and to support them. If anything, these cases becoming more and more known just makes me want to be sure to express my appreciation to individuals respectfully while being vocal about my own displeasure with the working conditions that the industry is too comfortable accepting as the status quo.
The way games get made, the toll it takes on the talented production team, all of it needs to change, and I know that's hardly a bold statement. But I just think about the last studio I was at, putting in 60 hour work weeks of "volunteer" overtime (in which it wasn't explicitly mandatory, but you wanted to be there to help the coworkers who were willing to stay to the point where the leads would make you feel guilty for being one of the handful who wouldn't stay late), trying being a beacon of optimism for my coworkers. A lot of us were proud of our games especially after all that work we put in, and they were games that reviewed mid-60s to high 80s and they weren't all best sellers. Of course it's worth the focus testing and doing what you can to ensure your game has broad appeal. You want to make sure all that hard work isn't for nothing, and that it gets appreciated. I hate the idea that some interpret that as appealing to the "lowest common denominator". What an awful take.
I feel like these sorts of articles and twitter threads precede most major releases at this point, and a common response is for people to be like "oh well I'm not buying that game now" or "not supporting that studio anymore", which is a fine and understandable reaction, but understand that this is a more complex issue than simply letting your wallet be your voice, and the work and skill that went into these titles still deserves appreciation and recognition, and above all respect, particularly with the working conditions. Stuff like THIS, the threads, the conversations they inspire once you weed through the fanboyism, and articles shining a light on the aspects of development that otherwise wouldn't be discussed does more to encourage change and fixing than not engaging with the end product.
I love the work Naughty Dog puts out, and I have many friends who work there currently and live for the environment because it works well with their productivity and strikes a work life balance that's comfortable for them. There are always people willing to put in that work but, damn, it doesn't have to, and shouldn't have to be that way. Changes need to happen at every facet of the industry; art, publishing, distributing, marketing, development, all of it. Release dates should be determined internally and not shared publicly or through marketing until a game is actually nearing completion, because the way it's handled now just puts so much money and pressure on meeting the deadlines once it's announced, with zero respect for the creative changes that can happen when things just don't come together quite how they were anticipated. Unionization needs to happen, it should have happened over a decade ago.
I still hope this particular game turns out well, because I want my friends' hard work to pay off for them, I know they deserve it. And I still want to play it both as a player and to support them. If anything, these cases becoming more and more known just makes me want to be sure to express my appreciation to individuals respectfully while being vocal about my own displeasure with the working conditions that the industry is too comfortable accepting as the status quo.
She speaks about Netherlands, there is a maximum amount of daily, weekly and yearly work hours employers and employees cannot exceed.
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It's definitely a problem here and it infects other threads as well.
How do we think Rockstar are so successful? It is a mixture of the two. Skill and providing time.
Is it true that the beard is Neil Druckmann and not the rest of the body?
Not really, imagine turn over so hard you have to delay because you need to train fresh graduates in your processes and in some cases teach them how to do their jobs.
Think of it this way, if you are trying to win a relay race would you keep the 300 lbs dude who is willing to put his heart and soul but needs a year of training to get in shape on your team? Or would you rather have the guy who got top 3 in last years race?
Missed the terrible crunch that the developers of RDR2 suffered uh?
As someone in Netherlands who worked YEARS of 50 hour work weeks and did some 60+
I can personally tell you this is not true, if you have a 0 hour contract and your above 18 you can work as many hours as you can / need.
Now if you have a 40 hour work contract you dont HAVE to work over that but that does not mean that work culture sometimes "demand" that you work more then that.
Well I'm glad someone is speaking up. Seriously either give us delays or shrink the project scope. Crunch culture is not ok.
Rockstar has as much crunch, or even more because the games are bigger. So have CDPR.
For real, I need a realistic unfiltered behind the scenes documentary for this shit.
I don't think your testimony contradicts what she said about legality :
Working hours and rest times in the Netherlands | Business.gov.nl
In the Netherlands, employees may not exceed a specific number of working hours, and are entitled to breaks. Read more about this regulation.
business.gov.nl
Workers have right that aren't exclusively tight to unions or entirely zapped by a contractual agreement. I mean, if both of you are suspicious about crunching in Guerrila, ask them, I cannot respond for it - I I was just linking a public statement from a senior employee about crunch, from the studio whose Hermen Hulst is coming from. I think it's also on his responsibility.
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I'm not defending developers. But don't forget the working conditions of those employed by Nike (at least at one time, still bad) or Amazon employees, or countless other workers in many other mediums. This is a plague on the working class not just game development.
Totally agree just saying its not like it does not happen in NL that was all :)I don't think your testimony contradicts what she said about legality :
Working hours and rest times in the Netherlands | Business.gov.nl
In the Netherlands, employees may not exceed a specific number of working hours, and are entitled to breaks. Read more about this regulation.
Workers have right that aren't exclusively tight to unions or entirely zapped by a contractual agreement.
I mean, if both of you are suspicious about crunching in Guerrila, ask them, I cannot respond for it - I I was just linking about a public statement from a senior employee about crunch.
Many hottake here but it seems ND like Rockstar before Jason article or CD Projekt have a problem of crunch culture.
This was last year, it means other internal Sony studios heard about the ND crunch culture. I know for example Insomniac Games does not have this culture.
This was last year, it means other internal Sony studios heard about the ND crunch culture. I know for example Insomniac Games does not have this culture.
I know but he worked there for 5 years and 7 months the longest in his portfolio.
Maybe I should elaborate more on why this move is really bad. There are a hundred of innocents people workin in naughty Dog and if there is such decision they are made by few people so if you have a problem with specifc persons you can call them out when they do something wrong but to give a bad impression that affects hundred of people who have no control over such decisions is something I'd never do or accept IMO
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Software development in europe is cheaper than US. At least compared to my country, Spain. My salary equivalent in the US would be x3. Spain life is cheaper tho...
Probably in Germany and UK, software development is similar to US.
You got me in the first half not gonna lie.
He speaks his mind, he was there for years. It's hard for fans to understand that not everything might be beautiful in their favourite dev studio...
Many hottake here but it seems ND like Rockstar before Jason article or CD Projekt have a problem of crunch culture.
This was last year, it means other internal Sony studios heard about the ND crunch culture. I know for example Insomniac Games does not have this culture.
Sony's internal studios sniping at each other. Lmao. Naughty Dog has a flat structure for game development, and they're really hurting because the scope of the games. 500+ people and you need producers, full fuckkking stop.
Indeed. These hugely impressive games are made with talent, money to delay and crunch. Sad reality but true.
And it was a good thing to tell us some realties behind laws.
Both realities can surely co-exist (without, of course, the unhealthiest extremes): it's possible to have deep appreciation for what their hard work yields, yet at the same time, send a wakeup call for the culture enabling it to change.
Like for example, those who've shown in this forum either interest or recognition toward Red Dead Redemption's sequel, despite being an equal or even worst offender of the same practices, which I guess they obviously disapprove of, even after paying for it and lavishing about its graphics, story, etc.
Ubisoft has an army of developers, like 14k-15k people for game development.
All their titles, the major ones, are co-developed with 6-7 other Ubisoft worldwide studios.
Not all publishers operate like this and Ubisoft can alleviate crunch because they can count on a lot of low wage developers in Eastern Europe, SEA and China.
You can be successful even without crunch, you don't need to sell 50 millions copies and have 200 awards to be successful.
Jedi Fallen Order sold over 8 million copies in less than two months and Spider-Man exceeded 13 million copies ltd and both studio heads talked about how they work and how they avoided crunch for their titles.
And really, seeing balls shrink in RDR2 is not worth it the cost of lives.
Request to lock this thread and start a new one about this series of tweets that focuses on the actual issues raised from the get-go.
So ? It's also they most ambitious game by far.
Rockstar also went from releasing a couple of games last generation to only RDR2 this generation. These games take up a massive amount of ressources - especially when you wanna go all out and end the generation with a bang.
Truthfully I think because they outsource a ton of work to studios in parts of the world where worse working conditions are the norm. Ubisoft games always have like 6 studios in the credits. I don't think it's necessarily because their games don't suffer from crunch cycles. You don't poop out an AC or Far Cry every (other) year without a ton of people and likely a decent amount of crunch and exploitation of lower wages and poorer working conditions in poorer parts of the world.
Does the US not have a national labour law that prevents tge most extreme cases of crunching? Shit that happens at American studios is definitely illegal here in The Netherlands and I think in most of the EU.
There are Federal laws and state laws. Some states afford better rights to workers than others. Florida is garbage. My fiance worked here (where I'm still employed) for 16 years, last 6 years on salary pulling 50+ hour weeks including work from home at about half the national average pay and then terminated her without due cause simply because my new GM didn't like her personality (aka wouldn't do more than the absurd amount she did including the GMs job). This killed her medical coverage right before needing a major surgery and when I personally emailed my company's owners about what happened I got a "thoughts and prayers" and "we'll get back to you" response only to be completely ignored and swathed in debt.
He didn't say he wants to work with the best. If you read the full thread it's clear he gives props to how talented the animation contractors are. The issue is that instead of retaining talent that has worked with company for extended periods of time (likely due to a toxic or oppressive work environment), ND hires these contractors that need to be brought up to speed and that has nothing to do with them being "the best".
The more you hear about the US, the the more you learn how fucked up the country really is.
If I have to choose between a buggy game and seeing devs work 12 hours a day for months to deliver a polished game i'll choose the former.
Yes, it is not cool to have unpolished games but that's the reality of game development, perfectionism requires way too much and may costs people lives and mental health.