Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"
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How Ubisoft Makes So Many Assassin’s Creed Games
There has been one major new Assassin’s Creed game every year since 2007, except for the two years they skipped and the one year when they made two. It’s never been a secret that Ubisoft rotates teams, but it’s never been as clear how they do it until a talk given by the head of the franchise at...
kotaku.com
Should be noted, they've been building this system of collaboration between multiple studios worldwide for more than a decade.
There are many many games that are the size and scope of TLOU2. Ambition is not just about how cinematic a game is.
i'm your new boss loser. i'm gonna make you work for 14 hours sucka
None of these examples are really comparable since all of these projects except Anthem are made by studios who have assigned these projects to smaller teams.
Jason did write his own article on the working conditions at Bioware during Anthems development which was total chaos.
Mass Effect Andromeda had a rocky development cycle as well and the team working on that was not the main team at Bioware, they were the team that up until that point had only created DLC for Mass Effect 3.
Fallout 76 was a rushed out project made by a smaller team and it was not made by the A team if you will which are busy working on Starfield.
every moron defending this with the "they knew what they were getting into! they want the prestige of working on a naughty dog product!" is correct, but not for the reason they think they are. that is exactly why and how companies can do this kind of crap. management knows that the allure of having a naughty dog game, a rockstar game, a marvel movie, etc etc whatever massive property on someone's resume is a powerful motivator. it is how the ball on this kind of corporate abuse gets rolling. like not to be too rude but how stupid do you have to be to not see this?
The developers of Anthem, Mass Effect Andromeda, and Fallout 76, were working with new tech and/or tech that didn't suit their needs which led to delays when it came to iterating and prototyping ideas,. The lead team behind Mass Effect Andromeda hadn't even worked on a full on ME game before, they handled the MP of ME3. Meanwhile Anthem went through huge changes throughout development including a creative director change.
Ok but what does that have to do with what I said?
you made an edit I see
Again, where did I question the skills of the ND team? Or the structure itself? I'm honestly not here to argue. What I did say was that managers are to blame for crunch, and that is in every studio that has suffered from it, no matter their structure. I obviously don't think that means every manager/lead who has enabled crunch during development needs to be fired or whatever. The industry needs unions, and managers/leads need to figure out workflows without crunch. If they're good at their jobs, they will be able to do so.
If you look at the dev scene, there are senior people who really don't want to work at Naughty Dog because the whole industry knows about their crunch practices. This is why they had to hire more junior staff and people from the film industry. Don't get me wrong: it's great to hire juniors, but you need to have senior devs training them. And the workflow in film is completely different from games, so those folks need to adapt as well.
I'll repeat myself: "I don't think anyone is questioning how skilled the Naughty Dog team is, but how they're working." At the end of the day, crunch is the main problem, and discussing it actively can hopefully lead to healthier practices, devs being more productive and wanting to work for them, and more efficient management practices overall. That applies to every studio with this problem, including Naughty Dog.
Go find a studio that makes a game on the same level as ND because that's what I'm saying I'm not asking for your opinion on what size, scope and ambition means because that answer changes from studio to studio. What I'm asking for is a studio that can actually make a project of the size of TLOU2.
stop supporting a company that treats its employees like garbage
DriveClub
GT Sport
Sea of Thieves
No Mans Sky
Battlefield 4
Final Fantasy XIV
LITERALLY 100s of others....that render that quote mute.
So how many special cases need to happen until its not special?
I don't know that I fully understand his point. Like for example if you're a bad writer, more time isn't somehow gonna make your writing better. Though if he's just talking about the technical side of things, like programming or whatever, not the creative stuff, then I can get that
I can totally believe the part where he says a more senior team would have released the game already.
I've seen them. What about it? If you can elaborate on your criteria it would help to discuss it.
The trailers show you the size and scope they are going for so what else do you need to specifically know when we already have a visual representation for what they are trying to achieve?
He's saying the team is talented, but they are dragged down by mismanagement and team culture, leading to unnecessary delays that will have killed any other studio without Sony's deep pocket to sustain the delays.
No, it is not exclusively that. You do realize there's more than just visuals to a game and that a lot of time and work and overworked employees go into other aspects of a game as well?
Okay. I saw a cinematic driven, linear stealth shooter in mid-sized levels. Not sure whats so unique about that that no other studio is doing.
It wouldn't mean that.... it would mean that most studios would be shut down... especially if that game that took 7 years to develop sells like shit.
There would be... if all were to do it.
Uh... because if something isn't sustainable... it goes away....
Sigh
Why am I not suprised? I wish Sony would get involved attempts to fix the issues the studio clearly has. Developers are talented aand deserve better than this.
Then again, the games are successful sp this will never change if the money keeps flowing. Reading that part about movie animatioes being the replacement for game developers leaving makes sense when I look back at some of their games.
Why am I not suprised? I wish Sony would get involved attempts to fix the issues the studio clearly has. Developers are talented aand deserve better than this.
Then again, the games are successful sp this will never change if the money keeps flowing. Reading that part about movie animatioes being the replacement for game developers leaving makes sense when I look back at some of their games.
You described something so simple but yet many studios can't actually make a game on that level if they could we've have more games with the same quality as what ND puts in games but we don't because it's more complicated than that.
I atleast described something while you're still using vague terms. What level are you talking about? Critical success? Commercial success? Awards? You'll find games that have exceeded Last of Us in each criteria.
This is not new but it's still tough to read Schier's article. They're one of my favorite devs; I love what they do and you can see the craftsmanship in their games everywhere you look.
Looking into the dark side of it all the work is rough. Leadership should realize they need to change and be able to keep senior devs; to foster healthier and more effectient environments.
It seems some employees think they're making the best game ND has made yet, but I hope they address the long term effects of their culture because I want this studio to be making amazing games well past the PS5, but with a reputation that doesn't have a dark side.
Looking into the dark side of it all the work is rough. Leadership should realize they need to change and be able to keep senior devs; to foster healthier and more effectient environments.
It seems some employees think they're making the best game ND has made yet, but I hope they address the long term effects of their culture because I want this studio to be making amazing games well past the PS5, but with a reputation that doesn't have a dark side.
There still wouldn't, the amount of 3rd party studios is massive.
I'd be curious to hear commentary on exactly why so many folks left after shipping Uncharted 4. I'd bet a lot of them did so to get a promotion to a more senior role at another firm, not because they were so down on Naughty Dog and its practices. For every Rockstar or Naughty Dog that has crunch there are a bunch of studios that crunch and still don't ship great games, or studios that don't crunch as much, ship mediocre or deal with game cancellations, and can't consistently pay salaries.
My guess is that for a lot of non-Senior staff it was, by a mile, the best thing they could put on their resume in a very long time. Or to put it another way, the perfect thing to use when interviewing to land a better, more senior role at a different studio.
A lot of the senior management at Naughty Dog aren't going anywhere. So it's a smart move to parlay 'designer on Uncharted 4' into a more senior role at another studio, and I bet that's why a lot of folks did it. Would be great to hear impressions or takes on the possibility that something like this happened here.
My guess is that for a lot of non-Senior staff it was, by a mile, the best thing they could put on their resume in a very long time. Or to put it another way, the perfect thing to use when interviewing to land a better, more senior role at a different studio.
A lot of the senior management at Naughty Dog aren't going anywhere. So it's a smart move to parlay 'designer on Uncharted 4' into a more senior role at another studio, and I bet that's why a lot of folks did it. Would be great to hear impressions or takes on the possibility that something like this happened here.
Then go ahead and name the studios that rival ND with critical success, commercial success and Awards?
Also I didn't need to describe anything your personal opinion is that the game is nothing special so why did it matter if I gave you my opinion on what I saw it wouldn't change a thing in the discussion.
I like how responses to his experience at ND are basically "Man, fuck you dude". Night and day difference between him trash talking Microsoft's acquisitions last year and shading ND now.
Nothing he is saying seems unreasonable. Resources and budget restrictions definitely have a big impact on any kind of project; this does not mean ND is any less talented or their games would not be great, just means the flexibility they have is an important factor in the quality of their titles.
Rockstar games?
CDPR?
you'd be hard pressed convincing anyone that TLOU 2 is more ambitious in scope than Cyberpunk.
Look you didn't actually read my original post I reply to did you?
on one hand, crunch is awful
on the other hand, some of the stuff he says sounds needlessly petty and scorched earth
i just have to raise an eyebrow at "yeah ND are total shitbirds except for the stuff i worked on/with... all that's gonna be great" i mean c'mon bruh, this aint a professional look at all... surprised he put this out there
on the other hand, some of the stuff he says sounds needlessly petty and scorched earth
i just have to raise an eyebrow at "yeah ND are total shitbirds except for the stuff i worked on/with... all that's gonna be great" i mean c'mon bruh, this aint a professional look at all... surprised he put this out there
why do I have to follow breadcrumbs to read a post you made way back when your post I quoted has the statement 'that's what I'm saying', indicating it summarizes your point?