OP
OP

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Wide-spread objectifying & overt sexualization (& other kind of gross treatment) of women has far more far-reatching consequences in society than violent video games do. Violence in real life is extremely frowned upon by a big portion of humanity and illegal in all but the most extreme cases (in most places). Most people understand mindless real-life violence is wrong. They understand the pain that violence causes so they don't generally resort to it or put themselves at the risk of being hurt by violence unless they feel they really have to (or have anger management issues).

Violent video games are simply so far removed from real life that playing violent video games doesn't really mirror real life in any way. Sexists, objectifying attitudes towards women are a much bigger daily issue, when men learn those kinds of attitudes from everywhere in society. It's in tv shows, movies, lyrics in music, games, porn. Men grow up learning that women are there for them to take or to please men first & foremost. This kind of attitude is pervasive in society in everyday life.

It does give me pause that many of us agree that media shapes our culture, our beliefs and our attitudes yet somehow shooters are exempt from this. This line of argumentation makes little sense to me because if "distance" from real world violence is what makes violence in video games okay, you could make the same argument to justify any kind of "problematic" content or other, more specific violence. I don't need to spell this out but I think you can guess where this line of argumentation leads us if we applied it to sexual or racially-motivated violence.

This is especially disturbing because I'd argue that military shooters are one of the most popular and widespread expressions of violence against non-white people in Western mainstream. And we all know how attitudes towards black and brown people, especially Muslims, have shifted in the last two decades.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
My issue with it is that parents need to crack down on it and actually research games. In a way I'm glad Fortnite took off, since it's a much goofier, more colorful take. The idea of kids playing modern Grand Theft Auto legit freaks me out.

Personally I barely play any shooters and most of my favorite characters in fiction take a firm no-killing rule. Violence is pretty inescapable though and I'd appreciate it if more big devs got the chance to get out of that zone.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,184
Is it more fun to have a game with real guns and realistic violence then say a cartoony shooter without guns like Splatoon?

Actual Realistic violence and is probably really, really not fun at all to most people.

Most games with a "realistic coating" do all sorts of cartoony things to make the violence more palatable and enjoyable, whether it's the visuals or sound effects.
 

Egida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,413
The same goes with TV shows and movies or even books. I think the problem would be if there weren't any alternatives to them, but thankfully that's not the case: This year Control is the first game I've played with guns, unless you count Yoshi's egg throwing as a kind of shooting.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,370
A big problem with so many games being about shooting people in the face is that it really limits what kinds of stories that games can tell. When it comes to violence on the scale most video-games have it there's only so many themes that can be explored, and if you want to explore other themes you often have to just ignore the fact that your characters are actually mass-killers (see Uncharted) or go another route completely that very few AAA developers can pull off.

I know it's gonna be a hot take here but I honestly feel that TLoU2 is, from what we've seen so far, shaping up to be one of the most juvenile games that the industry has put out in years. Why? Because, unlike your Gears of Wars and your Mortal Kombats it seems like it's trying to trick you into believing that it's violence is actually justified through the 'deep theme' and 'brutal, realistic setting' instead of being there because the developers wanted to show off their animation and graphics systems. Druckmann says the game is about 'Hate' and implies that the violence is necessary when in the realm of cinema the film literally called Hate (La Haine) doesn't even show the outcome of its singular gun shot.
 

SliceSabre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,556
That's why I prefer games where you romance anime ladies and fight monsters with swords.

That said I still like and play games you shoot people in the face but also to that I've never actually had an issue with those types of games. Just like I don't have issues with action movies where one guy with take down and army of dudes with just his pistol and fists.
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,989
England
Is it?
In terms of programming/graphics, the former requires much more ressources. The latter requires ... good writing. Yeah, that's a problem, ofc, when it comes to video games. ;i
No, it really is unfortunately. I feel exactly the same way as the OP, made a similar point years ago at the old place, and wondered why only games have this problem. Yes, movies also have lots of violence and action. But while games mostly revolve around shooting/stabbing/punching various humans/monsters/aliens for 80%+ of game time, even the majority of violent movies aren't that weighted towards violent screen-time. And more importantly, movies have plenty of films without that kind of overt violence, like drama, romance, comedy, thrillers, documentaries, still within the "AAA" space. You either have to look for Indie games if you want that in video games, or look at the sports genre (the only other big type of game genre besides violent action).

Video games don't have a King's Speech, Breakfast Club, Lion King, Life of Brian, Interstellar etc. We pretty much just have violent action and sports in the AAA space.

As for programming of dialogue for engaging and varied gameplay, Deus Ex Human Revolution did this INSANELY well. I called them dialogue boss battles. But they were few and far between. The voice acting requirements, animation requirements, and none of it can easily be applied to repeatable sandbox gameplay like guns can =(



And when AAA games HAVE to sell big or risk destroying the company these days, it's not surprising that the vast majority of devs decide to base their games around violence and reveal them with comments like "Check out our awesome combat system!" - Simply because violence as a gameplay mechanics has been polished to a fine sheen and reliably sells. We need to hope the smaller devs who can afford to take the risks are able to find systems as deep and sanboxy as violence has been perfected towards in games, that AAA games can then adopt.

Sometimes I think there's hope -

enRzdTwLETUZGuWRovBwDBhZ_q5r_J8rI2c8m_3UF4Y.jpg


No Man's Sky is amazing for constantly prioritising improvements to exploration and non-violent gameplay, with combat always being a minor back-seat part of the game. It's sold millions and is (today at least =P) almost unanimously loved by those who play it.

7lSxudR6vvRuq9h8GMzfUANOJN2CZ9jzlrDrYYC3cL8.jpg


Fallout 4's settlement system allows you to play this game with combat taking a back-seat too. You can literally build your character around construction, science, engineering, and only occassionally have to engage in violent conflict in the times you run out of materials and need to venture into the wasteland to scavenge for more. The game is flipped from being a violent conquest of the game world, to a community-driven resettling of the game world. That's amazing.

ehg87l.jpg


We're finally also seeing a AAA game going out of its way to avoid combat almost entirely in Death Stranding. Another huge plus for the maturity of the industry and how it will look to non-gamers. Not without its speed bumps though, because like haters of No Man's Sky and Fallout 4's Settlement system, there are plenty of people hating on it simply because it doesn't instantly convey the same usual violent gameplay loops they're used to in games. "Walking simulator" and "But what do you actually do?" are getting time in the spotlight again...
 
Last edited:

jonamok

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,253
It's just harmless fantasy and stress relief.

Unlike, say, sports such as boxing or MMA, where people are paid and idolised for repeatedly punching each other in the skull until temporary (or permanent) brain injury renders one of them unable to continue.

So, enjoy your shooters guilt-free (unless their politics are truly retrograde).
 

zelig

Banned
Aug 29, 2019
221
How engaging can you make dialogues though from a pure gameplay perspective? There's not that much game to it. You also need everything to be unique when it comes to the characters and stories. In a shooting game, you can copy and paste the environments and enemies as long as the base gameplay is fun. You can't really do the same thing with dialogue driven gameplay.

There are tons of games out there that has the conflict in the game stem from other things than killing, but there will always be a market for people who want destructive and explosive conflict.

It's just fun.

I mean, imagine an interacrive H. P. Lovecraft-story. I loved those 'continue reading on page 245' books as a kid. A modern iteration of that'd be pretty awesome. I was actually disappointed when I found out there's shooting in 'The sinking city' that released on Switch yesterday.

One of my favorite games is Silent Hill: Shattered Memories. No shooting, no fighting aside from defense. And it doesn't feel lacking at all in terms of gameplay.
 

Fallout-NL

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,899
I think shooting is also prevalent because its well suited to being emulated in a videogames of a competitive nature (the act of it, mechanically, is simple and simple to translate to crude input devices while still providing a visceral kind of pleasure). It's also a simple solution to simple fictitious problems, escapism.

Is it?
In terms of programming/graphics, the former requires much more ressources. The latter requires ... good writing. Yeah, that's a problem, ofc, when it comes to video games. ;i

Not matter how much dialogue you write, it'll always be scripted. Armed conflict, even with AI is dynamic, unpredictable and therefore exciting in a different way.

It's just the easiest way to convey conflict with gameplay.

Yep. Writing can enhance a great game of course, but technically, and I stress the word technically, Doom is more of a true videogame than say Grim Fandango. There's problems with that statement, I will concede, but it's not indefensible.
 
Last edited:

FreeMufasa

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,375
I was thinking about this recently OP and was gonna make a thread this weekend. It's kinda mad when you step back and think about it. All we're doing in most games is just killing. Of all the possible gameplay types that got popular, killing things is by far the most.

I can't hate tho. I love it. But also realise how fucked up it is.

I mean if its shooting a bag guy. If someone gets amped up sniping civilians in gta, I would side eye it.

Lmao that was my favorite thing to do in GTAV. Park up on a mountain, snipe down mutha fuckas and lmao at the mayhem. Police couldn't reach me too but they'd get RPG'd from a distance.
 

bombermouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,056
I'm with you OP, it's pretty fucked up.

I love the uncharted series, but I wish it was less shooty shooty. Can we create challenging gameplay and an engaging narrative where the main focus is not shooting random people in the face?
 

battleborn27

Banned
Oct 6, 2018
693
I wish fatalities were removed or toned down in MK. I think the characters, gameplay and lore are enough to keep people interested but muh fatalities!
 

zelig

Banned
Aug 29, 2019
221
I wish fatalities were removed or toned down in MK. I think the characters, gameplay and lore are enough to keep people interested but muh fatalities!

This is a case where I disagree. Fatalities are at the core of MK. Violence is at the core of Doom.

The issue is that such gruesome violence is present in ALL games. I wonder if GTA6 ... omg.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
I don't believe this. I think it's in our history, I don't think it's our nature.
I've read studies a while ago where they addressed this by observing young children that like to destroy their own toy towers after building them, and also like destroy toy towers of others even when they see other children cry about. I don't know the exact result not methodology, and maybe it was about correlation, not causality. But from what I've recalled I think it's not too far from the truth.

Furthermore many papers address that everyone is capable of doing cruel things, given the right circumstances and "push factors". But yes, anthropologists are divided by this.

I mean, it's history when we saw gladiators killing each other for sport. Nowadays we enjoy people not killing (except in fiction) but beating the crap out of each other in boxing, MMA, and the like. Okay, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but a lot of people do enjoy that. I can't think of anything else than an inherent reason in our nature, soul, conscious, or whatever is responsible for that. But I do think there is something.
 

mute

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,536
I'm in the same frame of mind and I'm lucky because for the most part my genre/game preferences keep me away from it most of the time. I'm also lucky at least for now that my kids don't seem interested in it either, though that changing is inevitable.
 

TonyB

Banned
Feb 25, 2019
107
I imagine circulating propaganda fantasies of being the hero by slaying others for your ruler/god/country goes back so many centuries that it's ingrained in us at this point.

It's like a vestigial pleasure.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,471
It's a fun and intuitive gameplay mechanic that empowers the player. A lot of people also think guns are cool and like to feel like a badass.
But yeah, sometimes the amount of violence in media worries me. Some people watch certain movies because they actually enjoy seeing the gore, I think that's messed up.
I think that something as gratuitous as the fatalities in MK is really off-putting, the level of detail that is put into them these days is just repulsive and the fact that they're a big selling point for the games gives me pause. It's literally a celebration of extreme violence just for the sake of it.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
45,318
I mean I've bought every Call of Duty since Modern Warfare, and buy tons and tons of other shooters but in IRL I would never want to be near guns and want much much much stricter laws on them. So. *shrugs*
 

Serious Sam

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,354
I agree with you OP. It is fucked up when you stop and think about it. I really wish there were more AAA games not centered about killing and violence. Heck, I can't even think of 1 AAA game without violence from the top of my head.
 
Dec 4, 2017
11,483
Brazil
I get what you are saying op. Some of the must successful franchises require shooting someone.
I think that metal gear does an interesting approach rewarding stealth and no kills.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
It's a fun and intuitive gameplay mechanic that empowers the player. A lot of people also think guns are cool and like to feel like a badass.
But yeah, sometimes the amount of violence in media worries me. Some people watch certain movies because they actually enjoy seeing the gore, I think that's messed up.
I think that something as gratuitous as the fatalities in MK is really off-putting, the level of detail that is put into them these days is just repulsive and the fact that they're a big selling point for the games gives me pause. It's literally a celebration of extreme violence just for the sake of it.
You know it's too much when the developers get PTSD from having to having to use real life violence and gore as reference.
 

zelig

Banned
Aug 29, 2019
221
I get what you are saying op. Some of the must successful franchises require shooting someone.
I think that metal gear does an interesting approach rewarding stealth and no kills.

But it's vastly easier to just kill everyone (in MGS5 anyway).

I agree with the first part, though: We keep being astounded by monthly NPD sales of GTA5. The most fucked up mainstream game has become the de facto reason to play on PlayStation 4 and Xbox One.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
I'm with you OP, it's pretty fucked up.

I love the uncharted series, but I wish it was less shooty shooty. Can we create challenging gameplay and an engaging narrative where the main focus is not shooting random people in the face?

Yes, but the US/European sales charts are dominated by shooters (with a few sports games sprinkled in). That's the kind of people American/western "gamers" are, which ties into why the gaming community is so toxic.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
Yeah it's messed up. I have no problem with violence in games but rather how unbalanced it is and that there is very little content that doesn't feature simulated violence as a core gameplay device.

Of course there is content that doesn't but it's not exactly plenty pickings, even less that target a broader category of tastes.

Maybe it's due to the nature of how the industry developed, targeting teenage boys for the majority of it's early years and those lessons learned on game design have passed down easily on how to make engaging content. But even something like the Lego games have you smack the shit out of stuff to get stuff at it's core, that is pretty much the foundation for the vast majority of games.
 
Last edited:
Dec 4, 2017
11,483
Brazil
But it's vastly easier to just kill everyone (in MGS5 anyway).
Oh, yes, the game don't take away your ability to kill but it gives you a better score if you don't. Kaz always praises you at the end of any mission when you don't kill

I see this as some way to say: so you want to be like big boss ? Be better and do go just killing everything
 

mrfusticle

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,548
Violence is intrinsic to humans, especially men, and used to be essential to survive. However (most) people have several layers of civilised psyche on top of the atavistic tendency to violence... We still express aggression but it's channeled through safer means like sports, computer games and errr yuppies.

In that context I not too worried about the preponderance of human shooting games as a release valve .. Though I've always had a problem with realistic military shooters that's probably more political than psychological in my mind.
 

zelig

Banned
Aug 29, 2019
221
Oh, yes, the game don't take away your ability to kill but it gives you a better score if you don't. Kaz always praises you at the end of any mission when you don't kill

I'd prefer if killing had some major negative effects. It might be ok for MGS5, but in general: How much if a hero is someone who kills hundreds of people? Yeah, yeah, they're villains and therefore murder is ok. :/

Jrpgs are often suffering from a severe case of cognitive dissonance. As much as I love Xenoblade Chronicles 2, can anyone imagine how Rex et al kill other people? But that's exactly what happens, be it other blade-users in Uraya or soldiers in Mor Ardain. Even worse, Fire Emblem Three Houses. I absolutely can't believe how 95% of the characters would be able to kill other people. Can you imagine Bernadette slashing someone to death?

Violence is so normalized that seemingly most game designers have long stopped to think about the wider consequences of violence for the rest of their game.
 

Acido

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,098
Games don't cause violence more particularly than any other media, but they definitely contribute to gun culture and the normalization of violence as the means to solve conflict. It's come to the point where a blockbuster game can only be seen as such if it includes some kind of combat in it. This video explains it better.

 

Croc Man

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,546
I kinda get you. One of my favorite things to do in GTA SA back when it released was to use the gun cheat and start murdering every civilian I saw. It never felt cruel because it was very clearly a videogame with videogame-ass polygons, but when I tried to do the same on GTA V I felt sick because of how much more realistic everything looked.

Yeah I have similar feelings. Mowing down pedestrians in a cartoony game was much more fun before vehicle terrorist attacks became more common and the look of the game more realistic.

In a similar way I hate the glorification of torture in CoD (black ops I think) but am fine killing hordes of faceless enemies.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,370
You know it's too much when the developers get PTSD from having to having to use real life violence and gore as reference.

But without their sacrifice hard work we wouldn't be able to use things like these:

car.gif



as marketing materials! Can you imagine such a world?

/s of course
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,521
I think it's pretty bad. I think you can justify it in a lot of ways - it's abstracted, it's "natural," it's moral violence, it's just the simplest form of conflict resolution. But I don't think any of them really land for me.

I think at the end of the day, if you take pleasure from actions that cause pain, that's bad. It's probably not your fault. There's a combination of social and biological factors that make the action of shooting a fictional person in the head deeply satisfying. But that's something we shouldn't really be feeding into.

My main concerns is that it encourages violence as a problem solving tool and that it helps abstract violence for people. I don't think shootbang games are causing those problems, and are more of a result of them, but they do feed back into the culture.
 

Shining Star

Banned
May 14, 2019
4,458
Isn't it weird? Some games are just gross. I don't know how anyone plays Mortal Kombat or some of the shooting games out there.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
that's not a satisfactory explanation

there are many things that aren't "real life" which aren't nearly as enjoyable as shooting some pixeldude in the face

It's the feedback.

The enemy's head exploding like jelly. Maybe it's damage numbers popping up. The animation of the enemy taking the hits. The punch of the weapon, combined with how cool it looks to wield.

All of it makes for a satisfying experience, and the same could be said for wielding bladed weapons. I get just as much enjoyment from slicing up enemies with a sword. Shouldn't that be considered equally fucked up?
 

Kazuhira

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,297
Killing stuff is the real gameplay for most players these days.
Racing and sport games are the only exception.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
Is it more fun to have a game with real guns and realistic violence then say a cartoony shooter without guns like Splatoon?

No, but I do prefer that the guns look cool, and the animations and feedback are satisfying.

In Splatoon it's the POP of a defeated enemy, along with the animated splatter of the paint.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
Everyone will encounter violence in some form in their lives.

I'd like to think it's about that, but given how we hear nothing about how violent video games appear to people who have suffered through real life gun violence, it doesn't seem fair to try to interpret violent games as a coping mechanism for violence suffered elsewhere.

It's just fucking enjoyable
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
Yeah I have to agree, like I understand conflict is a key in most styles of videogames so you're gonna get faced against enemies, but the advancement of graphics in games and the push from devs to make it the most real, or atleast, movie-like experience are starting to ramp up violence in a, atleast for me, uncomfortable way. Like, for example, I love the new Assassin's Creeds (Origins and Odyssey) but a lot of the kill animations are completely unnecesary and overdone, and I don't feel like they add anything to the game. I guess it's also a sympton of how juvenile gaming still can be IMO, where some devs still think gritty, graphic and realistic violence = more adult. it's atleast a correlation I never quite understood.