He wasn't the first giant robot series but Mazinger Z basically set up a lot of the common tropes like kids piloting the robots from inside and then everyone else ran with it. He also pretty much started Ecchi style manga
My only big regret is we didn't get a remix of the awesome main theme from the OVA:
https://youtu.be/2dKGOeukJys
That's way more iconic than anything from the TV series (which I recall Go Nagai hated, and it actually inspired him to make the second half of the manga darker and more tragic).
https://youtu.be/2dKGOeukJys
That's way more iconic than anything from the TV series (which I recall Go Nagai hated, and it actually inspired him to make the second half of the manga darker and more tragic).
This version has the longest version of the fight we've seen so far.
He wasn't a good artist, at all. It was his ideas and envelope pushing that made him popular and important. He really was the dark side of Osamu Tezuka, and that's why he was important and needed.
If you want to compare it with comic books, he was the Frank Miller of manga/anime, even though that's an insulting comparison, because Go Nagai isn't a racist, mysogynist asswad.
The OVA did cover the manga ending. Sure, it took years to get there, but the OVA is finished by the Amon Apocalypse that very faithfully adapts the Manga ending.
If you want to compare it with comic books, he was the Frank Miller of manga/anime, even though that's an insulting comparison, because Go Nagai isn't a racist, mysogynist asswad.
The OVA did cover the manga ending. Sure, it took years to get there, but the OVA is finished by the Amon Apocalypse that very faithfully adapts the Manga ending.
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Typically when people speak of the OVA, they refer to the two made by Umanosuke Iida and Oh! Production. By which, their vision of the ending was never made as the Amon OVA was made by a whole other team and studio.
We should do better to specify which OVA series though.
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Well, the Amon one was made to finish off the hanging threads of that one. So I count them as one and the same.
I think that's kinda nonsense. Like, of all the things I would say about Nagai, him being a good artist is probably closest to something that pretty much anyone should be able to agree on. His art is varied, his design work is very good, and his layouts whenever he puts effort into the spreads are really good. Saying he is not a good artist and it's just his ideas that were good is odd because it wasn't his themes which were most influential on their own - but his designs. Devilman, Cutie Honey, Mazinger, Enma-kun. He has such range and iconic character work that the claim of him being not good artist seems really.... off. The comparison to Frank Miller is extra strange because Frank Miller's best work are the ones where he writes for a better artist, while his own art is known to be pretty bad. Go Nagai draws for himself and his art has inspired generations.
Ehhhhhhhhhh what? Now I'm not sure if you even watched Amon or read the original manga, or if you just remember it really poorly. That's not accurate at all. Amon Apocalypse is far less faithful than Crybaby and absolutely does not have the manga ending.
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If you compare his art, and grasp of anatomy to people like Tezuka, or Ishinomori that were active at the very same time, he really wasn't very good, and most of his work just felt rushed and unrefined.
His ideas, and creations are what he's known for, not how "good" his art was. I thought I'd made that point clear. Don't get me wrong, I love Uncle Go, but "Great Art!" was absolutely the last thing he was known and iconic for. :x
Sure, that's fair. I just think it says a lot about the disparity of quality that many fans feels that many would have to disagree on that.
Tezuka and Ishinomori are better artists, that doesn't mean Go Nagai isn't a good artist. Considering there are tons of artbooks celebrating the ART of Go Nagai, I would say that his art is definitely something that he is known and iconic for... But I forgot that this is the internet, and you are either the BEST ARTIST EVER or you are NOT A GOOD ARTIST AT ALL. Sorry.
What's with the unneeded hyperbolic hostility? Go Nagai is a very sloppy artist - and it's a very well known and well discussed talking point when it comes to him.
Doesn't mean his art is gutter trash, just that he isn't traditionally known as a *good* artist. His ideas are legendary, not his artworks.
And yes, there's tons of Go Nagai artbooks. But there are tons of artbooks from other people that aren't considered good artists either, that's how it works, create something popular and you'll have a number of artbooks to your name. The number of artbooks someone gets isn't a sign of the quality of their art and a very weird argument to make.
Citation required. My argument is that he IS respected as a good artist in the industry, and it's not just his ideas. His artwork is good, and visual design is part of artistic talent, not just consistency when it comes to producing weekly manga. His manga quality is extremely inconsistent, that's true, but the mark of artistic quality isn't just from that. Great artists can put out sloppy work. When it comes to actually designing characters and drawing them, Go Nagai is definitely up there in terms of quality.
Friend told me to watch this so I put it on today without knowing anything about it.
After the initial shock washed away I ended up really enjoying jt. I finished it in a single sitting which is rare for me. It was so dark and went places and didn't expect. Really think I need time to process it really, it was really heavy stuff.
Odd comparison, near the end it really reminded me of undertale lol. From some of the themes to even the music...you know just with a lot more boobies and Gore lol
After the initial shock washed away I ended up really enjoying jt. I finished it in a single sitting which is rare for me. It was so dark and went places and didn't expect. Really think I need time to process it really, it was really heavy stuff.
Odd comparison, near the end it really reminded me of undertale lol. From some of the themes to even the music...you know just with a lot more boobies and Gore lol
It all boils down to you putting him on a pedestal for things I'm not putting him on a pedestal for. Ishinomori had a much more insane output of works, and his quality never varied as wildly as Go Nagai's.
We're talking upper echelon of Manga legends here, and you're acting like I compared Go Nagai to some Moeblob artist because I said he's not known for his good art. Go Nagai's spot and importance is uncontested.
(let's make one thing very clear, Nagai created several franchises that are much more important to me, than Tezuka's creations would be - If I had to choose, it would be Nagai any day. And yes, I do own several of his artbooks.)
No I think it comes down to you making a statement I disagree with because you are only interested in comparing for some reason, while I was pointing out how ridiculous a comment like that is. "Go Nagai is not a good artist" is not a comment that says "Go Nagai is not as polished an artist as Tezuka or Ishinomori", it is a comment that literally says "Go Nagai is not a good artist." I'm arguing against that. I'm not interested in arguing for Go Nagai being better than Tezuka because I don't think that's true. I think that Go Nagai is a good artist because I think he is capable of really good artwork. That's it. Are there better artists? Absolutely. Is the standard for bad art far lower than what Nagai generally puts out? I definitely think so.
Well, maybe my first statement on it was a bit too extreme, I'll give you that. But given his sloppiness and anatomy issues, especially in Devilman, it's really hard to say "oh he was such a good artist!" that's not what made him, and if he didn't push the envelope and extremes like he did, he'd probably be a nobody now.
I judge artists by harsher standards than "CAN they do amazing stuff?", possibly because I'm one myself. In my book it's all about a consistent output, not "oh I'll smear this manga to finish, and open this new one with an AMAZING splash page!" Of course he did some amazing pieces, some really great panels and splash pages, but many of his manga are plagued by sloppy artworks in between.
In the end, I guess I was merely trying to say "He's got good art!" isn't what made Go Nagai important.
I guess this stems from the earlier discussion about whether Go Nagai is a good mangaka, which I would actually say no to. By most standards he was a poor mangaka because his works jump all over the place, a bunch of them are unfinished, and his sense of proper narrative and pacing is nonexistant. I don't consider him a good writer or storytelling, but one with really good story ideas. But even with his inconsistent art, when they do shine, they shine, and that's part of what made him stand out aside from the "extreme" content.
But I do think it is part of it. I'm really focused on the design part of this because I think it's a mistake to underestimate iconic design work. His concepts and ideas are influential, but so are his designs. So I think it works both ways.
Just finished the series. Loved it from start to finish. Context is magic. I think the amount of gore and nudity was pretty much the same throughout the series. It starts off edgy and tasteless and then slowly morphs into something depressing.
It's nice to see the inspiration for Berserk and Evangelion. Goddamn that was good.
It's nice to see the inspiration for Berserk and Evangelion. Goddamn that was good.
I think we can agree on that one. That puts my feelings about him into words pretty well. :D
See, to me, design and art are two different categories. You have people who are amazing character designers, but suck at giving those characters "life" in actual interactions, poses, and so forth. His designs are iconic, some of the demons he created for Devilman, for example, were groundbreaking and even end up copied/hommaged a lot.
I included those in the "He's an ideas man" part, earlier. I really need to learn to be clearer in Forum posts, I've been out of the Forum loop for too long.
I'll take that as praise for the story, then. The best tragedies are the ones that make you feel like they *took* something from you.
I think the issue is just us arguing past each other. When you said artist it was clearly intended to mean "manga artist" in context. To me artist refers to the more general sense of a person who does art. Hence design is art. A character designer is an artist. And illustrator is an artist. It's a different skill set from producing good comic art, but it's all still art. Is Nagai a better concept artist than he is at understanding how to frame a comic panel? Yes lol.
Yeah, we were thinking in different directions with this. I'm glad we reached an understanding though.
I love Nagai, and I'm so glad some of his franchises are getting a revival. Just yesterday I gushed to a friend about how amazing it would be to get an Imagawa OVA encompassing all Go Nagai works as a sort-of Magnum Opus like the Giant Robo OVA. I don't think I would survive the bliss that would give me.
You think so? I feel like, especially the Amon OVA, flew below so many people's radars.
To be fair, that's what the original TV was. XD
Overlooked this, lol.
It's been a million years since I watched Amon (release date actually), I remember being satisfied with how it went, really. Sure, the focus on Devilman's struggle against Amon was completely new to that OVA, but the final battle against Satan and the ending were really faithful. I should rewatch it to refresh my memory.
(I'm glad that all adaptations removed Devilman's attack on the Human's goofy looking Demon Hunter fortress, though... that was such a terrible piece in an overall good story. The crazy mobs were enough to underline the message about humanity.)
Overlooked this, lol.
It's been a million years since I watched Amon (release date actually), I remember being satisfied with how it went, really. Sure, the focus on Devilman's struggle against Amon was completely new to that OVA, but the final battle against Satan and the ending were really faithful. I should rewatch it to refresh my memory.
(I'm glad that all adaptations removed Devilman's attack on the Human's goofy looking Demon Hunter fortress, though... that was such a terrible piece in an overall good story. The crazy mobs were enough to underline the message about humanity.)
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Most of the of his stuff falls into one of three categories.
Over-the-top gag comedies: This is where stuff like Gakuen Taikutsu Otoko and Kekko Kamen falls. Lots of these feature sex jokes and parodies of authority figures (after his first major work in Shonen Jump ended after it became a boogeyman for parent-teacher associations Go Nagai would make teachers a frequent target in his works). I would highly recommend Gakuen Taikutsu Otoko, it's absolutely insane and really funny. For animated versions of these I would recommend the Enma-kun TV anime from a few years back. Kekko Kamen has an OVA that's really dumb but I personally liked it, wouldn't readily recommend it though.
More standard hero archetype stories: Cutie Honey and most of his giant robot work. Sometimes you get some gag comedy mixed in (like Cutie Honey's sex comedy stuff) or some darker stuff mixed in (like the part in Cutie Honey where Sister Jill burns Natsuko to death) but I would consider these his more "straightforward" works. "Straightforward" in the sense that they still feature things likeNazi Dullahansbut still. For animated versions I would recommend any version of Cutie Honey other than Flash, Mazinkaiser and Shin Mazinger, or Kotetsushin Jeeg. Getter Robo is Ken Ishikawa's work more than Go Nagai's but I'd recommend any of the OVAs.
Dark stuff: Devilman Lady, Dokuro no Yakata, Violence Jack and so on. Often full of sex and violence with darker plots and bleak endings. Devilman sort of falls into this too although it's more restrained than some of his later stuff. These are the ones that he's probably most known for due to the Devilman OVAs not shying away from violence and the ultraviolent Violence Jack OVAs that amped up the violent content from the original manga. If you can stomach the content there's some great stuff to be found in here though. Violence Jack has its reputation, but there are some genuinely great arcs in there. Devilman Lady has lots (LOTS) of rape but there are some really great bits too. For good animated versions of this kind of stuff there's Devilman Crybaby (obviously), the 1980s/90s Devilman OVAs, and the Devilman Lady TV anime (which is very different than the manga). I personally like the Hell's Wind Violence Jack OVA too, but it's not for everyone.
Then there's some stuff that doesn't really fall into any of these
"Prestige" work: Straightforward "serious" works. His straight adaptation of the Divine Comedy in manga form is pretty good.
Weirdo shit: Pure, absolute, unrestrained id to an even greater extent than the rest of his works (which I'd call "barely restrained" at worst). The genderbent version of Enma-kun is probably the grossest thing I've ever read and I have no idea what the audience for it is supposed to be.
As for if any of this is "good"...eh, it's a matter of taste really. I liked most of the works I've listed here outside of the genderbent Enma-kun one, which I'm a little fascinated by even if I find it disgusting. I would readily recommend the anime adaptations I listed more than any of the manga other than Gakuen Taikutsu Otoko (which has no anime).
...this reminds me, I really oughta check out Susanoo sometime.
My episode 9 commentary was on why it was a mess, not what the episode was trying to convey. I understand what they were going for, but it was executed poorly IMO. You may think its nit picking but its dumb to me and takes me out of it.
You actually made me think a bit more about the show, numbered your points to make them easier to address.
1. I can understand the relationship between Ryo and Akira being unhealthy, however I can't help but feel as if we should've had more time of them just being friends. They are implied to have spent lots of time together, however we don't really see them mess around with eachother or interact much outside of them working together, like we do with Miki and the little brother. This makes me not really care as much about their relationship, and the betrayal and final scene don't carry as much weight due to the fact. May just be me not remembering their interactions though.
2. I'm not sure how the episode showed the paranoia of society creeping in? Could you explain that a bit more, I didn't take that away at all.
And even with the scene at the end, I feel as if having Akiras parents not be a factor, or die before the events of the show would have been better. Have him be chasing after their shadows or something to complete the metaphor. Would have opened up an episode for the relationship between Akira and Ryo to be developed further.
3. Yeah you're right on that one, it might have been me not really understanding his satan conscience unknowingly seeping into his actions in the beginning. That made him seem like a really strange character with hyper conflicting objectives but that was the intent I suppose. Taking that into mind he makes more sense.
4. If he was tired/injured and wanted to return home because of that then it would have made sense to me. The way I understood it though was that he after deciding to leave to confront Ryo decides that its more important that Miki's safe. This would be fine, but there doesn't seem to be any justification for this sudden change of mind, he just sorta changes his mind for no apparent reason.
To me it seemed like they needed a reason for him to leave the house so everyone could die, but then needed a reason for him to go back to see everyone dead, and did it in a poor way.
5. Yeah it was just sloppy and took me out of it. To have the theme fulfilled could they have not had them flee, run from the house, then run into a bunch of people with guns, and be forced back towards the house? It's small but also a big enough thing that it makes it all seem artificial.
2. I'm not sure how the episode showed the paranoia of society creeping in? Could you explain that a bit more, I didn't take that away at all.
And even with the scene at the end, I feel as if having Akiras parents not be a factor, or die before the events of the show would have been better. Have him be chasing after their shadows or something to complete the metaphor. Would have opened up an episode for the relationship between Akira and Ryo to be developed further.
3. Yeah you're right on that one, it might have been me not really understanding his satan conscience unknowingly seeping into his actions in the beginning. That made him seem like a really strange character with hyper conflicting objectives but that was the intent I suppose. Taking that into mind he makes more sense.
4. If he was tired/injured and wanted to return home because of that then it would have made sense to me. The way I understood it though was that he after deciding to leave to confront Ryo decides that its more important that Miki's safe. This would be fine, but there doesn't seem to be any justification for this sudden change of mind, he just sorta changes his mind for no apparent reason.
To me it seemed like they needed a reason for him to leave the house so everyone could die, but then needed a reason for him to go back to see everyone dead, and did it in a poor way.
5. Yeah it was just sloppy and took me out of it. To have the theme fulfilled could they have not had them flee, run from the house, then run into a bunch of people with guns, and be forced back towards the house? It's small but also a big enough thing that it makes it all seem artificial.
I don't want people to misinterpret, the shows not bad, but has too many issues for me to recommend it to others.
Speaking of endings, this is another reason why I love the ending to the third Madoka Magica movie (Rebellion) so much:
it's basically a reverse Devilman/EoE, in which every character is alive at the end, including characters who were previously dead.
The depressing part is that the event that brought everyone back may have also fucked over the universe in unforseen ways. It undoes the sacrifices the characters made and may have ended up making things worse for everyone in the long run.
The depressing part is that the event that brought everyone back may have also fucked over the universe in unforseen ways. It undoes the sacrifices the characters made and may have ended up making things worse for everyone in the long run.
I marathoned the series last night. I've had no experience with Devilman until now, but I tried it out because I dug the first trailer. It was really uncomfortable for me to sit through at times, but I'm glad I pushed myself to watch all ten episodes.
Did Nagai give his thoughts on the adaptation in this interview? https://www.animatetimes.com/news/details.php?id=1514524971
Did Nagai give his thoughts on the adaptation in this interview? https://www.animatetimes.com/news/details.php?id=1514524971
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This Devilman running posture is on some Jojo levels of human anatomy shit.
Ep 6:
Ryo's a bit of a piece of shit isn't he?
Even fucking Griffith had standards.
Ep 6:
Ryo's a bit of a piece of shit isn't he?
Dude just pretty much trapped a bunch of innocent people in an arena to prove that demons exist and allowed this bull demon to go ham on them. Not to mention broadcasting super hardcore lsd porn nationwide where we all know kids were watching.
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Lol, but there was no final battle with Satan... Amon Apolcaypse literally ends with Akira regaining control, and then turning away from Ryo. It ends like the first 5 mins of Crybably ep10 basically, just before the end war itself. That's why Yuasa announced from the start that Crybaby would be the first anime adaptation of the climax up to the "last scene" of the manga. It's a real pity Amon Apocalypse even had to be made though, because apparently in a magazine interview with Nagai years ago, he revealed that they were going to finish the original Iida OVAs as a trilogy, with the final one being Armageddon, after Birth and Demon Bird. They proposed a budget of $1.2 million (which was unheard of for an OVA at that time) and were all ready to go but it never got greenlit. What a sight that would have been. :(
Has Nagai talked about Yuasa's adaptation? I've heard Yuasa talk about it especially in regards to doing the version of the story without the restrictions he was under when he originally did it in terms of graphic content and what not. Would be interested to hear if Nagai likes what Yuasa did with the material
This kid just ate a dog...
at least when Griffith fucks you over he's honest about it. Ryo just fed a whole bunch of lies to the world about Akira.
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Nagai does not comment on the actual material so much has his perspective towards how it had to be made. He wanted Yuasa to have full freedom to do how he wanted to do it, and he said he's happy to see the story modernized for a new generation so they can watch it as their Devilman without it feeling outdated and old.
About Akira going back in episode 9,
he goes back because his encounter with that mob gave him the urge to desperately tell Miki how important she was to him. He says it himself. It opened his eyes basically and he just had to tell her before encountering Ryo.
Regarding ep9
while it was kinda appearent that this was the sort of anime where the good guys will die I wasn't expecting Miki to get killed on screen like that. Her final scream was harrowing.
This kid just ate a dog...
How about the part where he ate his mom?
That shit was so fucked up, relevant to both quoted texts. Wasn't exactly expecting this what I first started this shit.
What makes it even more sad is that the kid was obviously still trying to control himself and struggling with the demon judging by how he didn't fully transform and was just holding her in his mouth instead of immediately eating her like he did the dog.
The whole last half of this thing was fucked. I feel like I need to cheer up by reading Berserk or something Akira put his grasses on and everything went wrong.What makes it even more sad is that the kid was obviously still trying to control himself and struggling with the demon judging by how he didn't fully transform and was just holding her in his mouth instead of immediately eating her like he did the dog.
Nobody got a happy ending, not even Ryo.
Fucking idiot shouldn't have shot a kill beam at his best friend that would blow him in half
Well god blew everything up in the end and gave the world a fresh start so it wasn't that bad?