Dave the Diver, one of the most successful indie titles of the year, is not an indie title
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I see it as a slap to the face really. And yeah have others have mentioned, BG3 is quite literally more of an indie game than Dave the Diver.
I'm sure I'm too caught up in it but it's seriously pissing me off. This show acts like it's all about celebrating games, and yet it's clear that they are actively combating against true indie developers.
They've just redefined indie to be whatever the fuck they want it to be. This should be where these games get spotlighted, but they've decided to find new ways to fucking bury them.
This is one of those things the industry at large should figure out at some point, now that everyone came together and decided the one genre's name was Bullet Heaven finally.
Indie can mean two things basically:
* independent: no publisher direction, regardless of how big the game is or isn't. This means BG3 is an indie game. This is fine because isn't a genre but rather a descriptor for "the artists were able to do what they wanted to do without other people compromising the vision". This is basically how the term is used in film.
* a genre: the term means something that is cohesive to an entire genre of video games. This means...whatever the term is agreed upon is an indie game. This is how the term is used in music with indie rock. The current problem is the part of the industry that uses the term as a genre, doesn't have a cohesive genre like indie rock is cohesive. You say indie rock, I know exactly what you mean. You say indie game, I got no fucking idea dude everyone has a different idea of what is indie.
Indie can mean two things basically:
* independent: no publisher direction, regardless of how big the game is or isn't. This means BG3 is an indie game. This is fine because isn't a genre but rather a descriptor for "the artists were able to do what they wanted to do without other people compromising the vision". This is basically how the term is used in film.
* a genre: the term means something that is cohesive to an entire genre of video games. This means...whatever the term is agreed upon is an indie game. This is how the term is used in music with indie rock. The current problem is the part of the industry that uses the term as a genre, doesn't have a cohesive genre like indie rock is cohesive. You say indie rock, I know exactly what you mean. You say indie game, I got no fucking idea dude everyone has a different idea of what is indie.
TGA has never cared about games or developers. It is an advertising platform. Every year they show it again and again.
They can definitely disqualify it from nomination if they deem it's not indies.
And I also think it's not.
It's a slap in the face of the real indies indeed. I mean Mintrocket wasn't even a small dev studio that gets bought out by Nexon, it's established by them lol.
Hmm. I guess it's somewhat official that "indie" or "independent" is more of an aesthetic and not a matter of fact. It's the game industry version of "literally".
Yet BG3 can't fit, I'm guessing, because it doesn't look graphically like an indie game. It's self-published so... that's like the most independent one can possibly get, right?
Yet BG3 can't fit, I'm guessing, because it doesn't look graphically like an indie game. It's self-published so... that's like the most independent one can possibly get, right?
What do you mean? Everyone knows that an indie game is a 2D art, roguelike with punishing difficulty and cozy farming elements.
And yet, year after year, they demonstrate that they only care about the advertising part.
The term indie has been misused for a long time now. These types of games deserve a new/ different category, what that is I do not know, but Indie is not it.
Perhaps in this specific case, simulation? But that wouldn't denote its indie-lite status. I don't really know.
Perhaps in this specific case, simulation? But that wouldn't denote its indie-lite status. I don't really know.
Yeah
Best Sim/Strategy:
- Advance Wars 1+2: Reboot Camp
- Cities Skylines 2
- Company of Heroes 3
- Fire Emblem Engage
- Pikmin 4
Hell I legit wouldn't be surprised if it had a higher budget/resources than Advanced Wars.
It's "indie" because just like indie in any industry, people love to gatekeep the label.
I guess people are implying that Dave the Diver is the equivalent of an industry plant. The game had the initial word of mouth "created by an unknown dev" marketing despite being "secretly" (is it really a secret?) funded by a major publisher.
Modern indie games are no longer like the braid/super meat boy era of indie games.
I guess people are implying that Dave the Diver is the equivalent of an industry plant. The game had the initial word of mouth "created by an unknown dev" marketing despite being "secretly" (is it really a secret?) funded by a major publisher.
Modern indie games are no longer like the braid/super meat boy era of indie games.
The idea that indie doesn't actually mean indie anymore is a fuckin stupid argument. Dave the Diver should NOT be an nominee for that award.
Pizza Tower
Bomb Rush Cyberfunk
Pseudoregallia
All amazing indie games this year that are just like the Braid/Super Meat Boy era. Developed and published by extremely small teams, sometimes just 1 or two people.
The reason why you think they don't exist is EXACTLY because of shit like this. Major outlets perverting the idea of what an indie even is, to the point to where people think the only actual "indies" getting made these days are games like Dave the Diver. Which is once again, IN NO WAY AN INDIE GAME.
And I don't hold anything against Mintrocket. They've been upfront about the fact that they're not an indie dev. It's the baffling display of ignorance and uncaring to gain knowledge in the face of clear evidence that gaming media is displaying with this nomination that's infuriating.
Very few of the nominees in this category have traditionally been actual indies. And not a single one of the games nominated this year (at least at TGA) is an actual indie. Singling out Dave the Diver for this complaint is weird.
Someone used Boutique Game to me the other day.
Not sure how I feel about it.
I agree, Indie should be independent not what a large group of independent games are typecast as.
Not sure how I feel about it.
I agree, Indie should be independent not what a large group of independent games are typecast as.
Can you prove this? If true none of them should be included in the category
It's really not, it's just a breaking point because it's so obviously blatant.
This argument is so ridiculous because you're just accepting the fact that true indie titles, or hell at least ones that are way way closer than this, shouldn't be recognized in their own category. Just on board for continuing to warp a genre to hinder the developers that made it in the first place and continue to pump life into it.
It's super sad because this argument, along with the previous post I quoted, essentially implies that these true indie games don't exist, or aren't worthy enough to be nominated compared to games with major backing. Which DIRECTLY FLIES IN THE FACE of what an indie project is and what this category is supposed to be.
You don't think a single one of the other games qualifies either? Fine. Then why don't we replace them with ones that actually do. I've already named three, and I'm more than certain that I can dig up three more.
Haven't heard of it, but maybe if this category actually was what it said it was, it may have been nominated and may have.
This is fucking tripe.
The Game Awards proves yet again that it neither understands nor cares about the industry it supposedly celebrates. You'd think after enough of these problems this site would stop jerking off for 30 pages about these fake accolades but this site is much like The Game Awards in many respects
It's fairly easy to Google each one. All the indie GOTY nominees at TGA this year are published by other companies, except Sea of Stars. Which is technically self-published, but was financed by publisher Kowloon Nights after its kickstarter. The reality is that indies have become a pretty big deal financially. There are a ton of publishers publishing what most people think of as "Indie" games, including those solo and small team projects ya'll are thinking of.
There are tons of indies. I play them. I have friends that make them. Virtually none of them get any attention here or elsewhere. And they certainly don't get enough attention to be nominated by anyone in the press who reviews games, and has virtually no time to play games. Much less time to sift through the thousands of indies coming out each month.
Look just because your indies don't line up with others don't mean they aren't getting attention.
Aside from Pseudoregallia (which even still sits at nearly 4,000 overwhelming positive reviews on Steam, fine enough landing), these games made massive waves in indie circles. Pizza Tower is a certified indie hit through and through, and Bomb Rush has been purely praised more that maybe any other game I've seen this year period.
Yes, there are tons of indie games, but to act like some don't rise to the top just the same as other games isn't true. There are clearly some that set themselves aside from the pack even still, often times because of their proven work in years of previous games/projects (was big in the case of Team Reptile and Cyberfunk).
Gee, if only we had a category from a major outlet(s) that helped us wittle down the true best of the best of these indie games and gain them more attention, rather than just reforming it into a Frankenstein for the purposes of advertising. We may hear even more about these games!
Before anyone compares Dave The Diver to Pentiment.
View: https://x.com/jesawyer/status/1724155448327319635?s=46&t=iZmz6uoIPPQew8LM4iPOPw
View: https://x.com/jesawyer/status/1724155448327319635?s=46&t=iZmz6uoIPPQew8LM4iPOPw
I think indie just like in film and music, has been twisted and now should essentially be for games with a certain scale...what that scale is and the parameters for that will always be contentious
but I would say
a dev team of under 30 people
a budget under 5 million
a promo budget under 1 million
but I would say
a dev team of under 30 people
a budget under 5 million
a promo budget under 1 million
I think "indie" is an imperfect description, but it's the one we have. We had this same debate with indie music in the 90s and 2000s, where "indie" is as much of a genre as it is the technical definition of being aligned/funded by a publisher.
Even if we want to push the boundaries of what indies are referred to like music, I'm asking, what the hell about Dave the Diver makes it an indie game even then?
If the Jonas Brothers come out with a new track tomorrow that's created, funded, and marketed by their immense production teams, but just happens to only feature them playing acoustic guitar for a quiet somber sound, do you really think that's gonna pass for being nominated for best indie song, even in that industry?
While the gameplay and tone are not close at all, I think the people exposed to Slay the Spire might also be the sorts of people exposed to Untitled Goose Game (when it first launched that is), and might also be the people who are down to try anything.
If I had two hypothetical friends, and one of them's favorite games are Fifa and Modern Warfare, and I have another friend whose favorite game is Slay the Spire, I might recommend Untitled Goose Game to the Slay the Spire friend over the Modern Warfare 3 friend, just kinda figuring they're down for anything if they're playing more niche, less super popular games.
It was also self-published, it doubly counts as indie (and also Baldur's Gate 3, Cyberpunk and Red Dead Redemption 2).
No they aren't. The best independent game category is labelled as games published outside the traditional publisher system. A AAA game published by Bandai Namco is very much the traditional publisher system.
If both dave the diver (subsidiary of massive Corp) and Stray (game with publisher and fairly sizable dev team) are indie, it's hard to see why it wouldn't be under those rules where neither factor disqualifies you.
I don't think it's indie, but I'm not clear why it wouldn't be for the purpose of the game awards.
I don't know whether Stray does or should count, but at least it's actually made by an independent developer. Dave The Diver is not.
I guess if its developed by an independent studio it's fine to classify it as an indie, even if they had some support from external publishers.
Anything thats owned or partially owned by a publicly traded company shouldnt be in the discussion.
Anything thats owned or partially owned by a publicly traded company shouldnt be in the discussion.
Yeah, hence why I saw it's imperfect, likening it to the perception of the indie record in music. In 2000, Modest Mouse swept dozens of "Best Indie Record of the Year" awards with The Moon & Antarctica, a record published by Epic, which is a subsidiary of Sony one of the largest record companies in the world. "Is this It" is regularly on "Top 20 Indie Records" list, published by RCA. SubPop has published so many records that are considered in the "indie" genre, but since the 80s and 90s they're a huge publisher. Billboard's "Top Indie Record" captures this debate, with Lil John, Garth Brooks, Jason Aldean, Mumford & Sons, and other mega massive artists topping their lists because "Independent" in music mostly meant "not the big 3..." and those acts don't even sound indie.
I think videogames mostly took "indie" from music publishing, and just kinda applied it broadly as a general, imperfect description. It's bull shit, but it is what it is.
Being a pedant about analogies, though, it wouldn't be the Jonas Brothers, but say the record company who makes the Jonas Brothers albums used a subsidiary to publish some other lesser known bands album, and that got called indie. And, yeah, that happens/happened all the time in the 90s and 2000s, when major publishers wanted to make money selling albums that had a certain tone and style, felt more authentic than over produced. It was a thing, it's an imperfect description of anything, but people end up forming an idea in their head about what indie means, and they might not look up the corporate structure of a label or publisher when they're thinking about whether a game is "an indie game" or not. Although, for what it's worth, a lot of major musicians will release albums on their own or not through their traditional publisher and generally be considered "indie." Radiohead's "In Rainbows" is considered an indie album... Radiohead was one of the biggest bands in the US & Europe at the time, but they published it without a major label.
(and also as a side note, a lot of major bands have released records on independent labels and... they're often thought of as "indie" records)
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id say its closure to a rom hack with a lot of work done - but to each their own
I hear you, but first off just because it happens in one industry doesn't mean it has to happen in ours. We're supposed to be better than this I'd like to think.
I hear your analogy too, but I once again am asking on behalf of specifically this game. Yes what you say is accurate and does indeed happen, albeit not as much, but to be frank it's usually not as obvious in the music industry, or better disguised, as you said. I have to imagine with your analogy, if the band that was created for this purpose comes out and directly says "We are not an indie band. We are funded directly by (insert massive label here) and they produce our music", then well that should absolutely slice any chance it has to be considered an indie band in discussions now wouldn't it?
We have that here. We have a developer that has said themselves they're not indie and they were formed by Nexon. We have all the evidence, nothing is "hidden". Yet TGAs are STILL ok with moving forward nominating this as an indie game, and in turn snubbing a game that actually fits the criteria.
Yes, I am certain there have been other "indie" games that have been snuck into rotation like this for sure. But as sad as it is, at least they were "hidden" better like what we're talking about with the music industry. This is just straight up blatant, so much so that it's fucking embarrassing and demeaning.
I genuinely wonder with Mintrocket thinks of this nomination. Honestly, I feel a little bad for them. They clearly care enough to try to make it clear they're not an indie developer, yet nobody in gaming media seems to give two shits and keeps labeling them as one. They probably feel weird as shit to be put in this position by the media and by Nexon.
And imagine if they win?! What do you even say? What the hell is this award for? We told you this isn't what we do. And the amount of disdain that would leak their way from real indies. This is SO stupid.