No worries! I never mind constructive criticism of my word choices.Lord Jesus I need to turn my tone down in this thread. Second time someone's felt the need to apologize to me. 😟
You ain't got nothing to be sorry for. ❤️
Nobody finds "the art of standup" to be mean spirited. This particular standup is the issue.
Every human being in this room, every human being on earth, had to pass through the legs of a woman to be on earth. That is a fact.
Do you honestly not have a problem with the transphobia?I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
It's nice of them to give the mods a heads-up that a horrible take is incoming. Gives them time to prepare the ban message.Do you honestly not have a problem with the transphobia?
If you don't want to engage with the thread, I'm not sure why you set up a "teaser" announcement for your thoughts. I don't think anyone was actually waiting for you to chime in, but since you're eager to let people know you disagree, maybe you can at least explain why? How much lead time do you need to explain your own opinion?
Do you honestly not have a problem with the transphobia?
If you don't want to engage with the thread, I'm not sure why you set up a "teaser" announcement for your thoughts. I don't think anyone was actually waiting for you to chime in, but since you're eager to let people know you disagree, maybe you can at least explain why? How much lead time do you need to explain your own opinion?
Ready for the justification for "I'm Team TERF" and "I'm misgendering my dead trans supposed friend and conveniently placing them on my side"I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
I'm ready for you justifying transphobia to watch a comedian you like, alright.I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
You don't need to have an opinion on everything, especially (correct me if I'm wrong) stuff that affects marginalized groups you aren't a part of.I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
I've yet to meet a liberal, left-leaning person IRL that either holds some or all of what we consider to be TERF stances/views. That's obviously not even counting the right leaning folks in my orbit, who don't even view trans folks as people of merit/value anyway.If you watched any the prior specials this isn't surprising
And even among progressive and feminists , terf leanings aren't a minority (speaking anecdotally)
Expecting famous people or peers to condemn is a pipe dream , good majority like him and/or agree with him
No one caresI do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
Do you honestly not have a problem with the transphobia?
If you don't want to engage with the thread, I'm not sure why you set up a "teaser" announcement for your thoughts. I don't think anyone was actually waiting for you to chime in, but since you're eager to let people know you disagree, maybe you can at least explain why? How much lead time do you need to explain your own opinion?
It's nice of them to give the mods a heads-up that a horrible take is incoming. Gives them time to prepare the ban message.
Anyone who seeks to find meaning in, or defend, what Dave did here is either a blatant transphobe themselves, or ridiculously gullible.
It takes a long time to try to launder Chapelle's transphobic bigotry through enough meely-mouthed bullshit platitudes about "the spirit of stand-up comedy" in order to make the poster feel like his fatally flawed premise might avoid the ban for justifying transphobia that he's inevitably going to eat.
Can't wait to see you try to justify transphobia, really can't.
You don't need to have an opinion on everything, especially (correct me if I'm wrong) stuff that affects marginalized groups you aren't a part of.
You aren't entirely right or wrong. Though as I say above, I am not transgender
I am fine with this community's conclusion that his actions in some way harms others - but not that it only harms others.
Intent doesn't matter. Impact does.
Dave has had 5 specials and he's spouting the same harmful drivel he has been from the first one. Defense of this is transphobia and anti-LGBTQ.
His intent is quite clear.
Is it okay to discuss openly one's conflict about this? Or is the point that I am either "with" everyone or "against" them? Can a person be conflicted about what a comedian is actually trying to say or do they have to instantly know every person's thoughts and intents before they start to talk about that internal conflict?
I think understanding transphobia and its role in the world and how it relates to what Dave is focusing on as opposed to embroiling oneself in the emotional energy it causes when the spectator is exposed to his jokes is important. I can understand the emotion and energy his stand up causes on this topic, and still reject that Dave's intent is what the majority of people say it is. Doesn't a person's statements and actions define intent? Or is it the community's interpretation of those statements and actions? I feel like, especially in historical context, it is way more the former than the latter.
Intent is notoriously difficult to assume or accept. A good recent example is Stephen Colbert IMO. If you look at Stephen Colbert's show after 2016 and the election of Trump, he basically remade his name in Trump's shadow. Trump caused him to become the #1 late night comedian. Do we assume that Colbert rode those coattails from the start, though? Was that his intent? Because recently, he won't even say Trump's name live on air. I would firmly argue that perhaps Colbert rode that awfulness, but that there was a grey point somewhere where he didn't consciously decide to utilize Trump to elevate himself. And from day 1 of Trump's election I was literally curled in a ball in bed over the fact he was elected because I knew what it meant (and what it still means) for the future of the United States and the world. And I was furious at any and all media for the way they had (in my opinion) brought it about. And anyone that benefitted from it turned into some kind of evil for me.
But at what point did Colbert turn from a lucky benefactor into an active benefactor into a regretful benefactor of what was happening? Did he have intent in it? Why did he stop saying Trump's name entirely finally? Should I burn him at the stake for not realizing sooner that his focus on Trump was elevating Trump and that he should stop?
And that grey area, to me, is also present in what Dave is doing. Why did he try to go so hard on the LGBT community in this special? Was it really to threaten them? I am fine with this community's conclusion that his actions in some way harms others - but not that it only harms others.
I think this forum has a very real problem with stating opinions as facts and trying to flame anyone that doesn't align. Please don't tell me that everything you and only you believe is the only truth in this world. That's as bad a take as any on a message board intended for discussion.
Where's the statement from Dave himself on what he was trying to do here? Where is your objective source of truth on the matter? And please don't respond with another opinion. And please don't tell me that EVERYTHING a comedian does can be taken at face value. Their whole purpose is to constantly do things that aren't face value.
This is literally as bad as aligning with the people from whom you are trying to protect in the LGBTQ community, a community of which I am a part (although I am not transgender, for clarity purposes). This is similar to book burning in fahrenheit 451. I am literally communicating a struggle / opinion and you are burning me at the stake for it. Since when did drive by moderation become an acceptable thing on this forum?
I am not trying to justify transphobia. I am trying to speak about the fact that Dave is quite literally addressing all the criticism of himself head on in this special. One can focus on the jokes and feel that emotional fire (I am not per se defending the jokes), or they can focus on his intent with the whole special. I do think the fact that basically his whole special focuses on the LGBTQ community is not a coincidence. I do actually think he is trying (even if one decides his execution is flawed) to say something a bit larger than the sum of the parts of his very targeted jokes. And I think this is where my disagreement with this community lies - to ignore that other part of this special and focus on the way he gets there exclusively, I think, is to miss a lot of important stuff that deserves conversation.
Comedy is actually a panacea for fear, historically speaking. I am not saying this special or the way he went about it is justified. But isn't there perhaps that silver lining? I can understand the community's fear that what Dave did drives certain communities toward more problems with self. Can the community understand my fear that silencing comedy would also increase the danger to those same communities?
You aren't entirely right or wrong. Though as I say above, I am not transgender but identify as a part of the LGBTQ community.
Everyone has an opinion on everything, btw. All you have to do is ask them about it. In this case, a couple non LGBT friends asked me to watch the special and see how I felt about it, so I did. And then I saw this thread and was surprised I didn't feel the same exact way or as strongly as everyone here does.
How is a post like this even allowed when people are calling for my ban for actually communicating my own conflict on the matter? Come on people. This is a message board. It is meant for the exchange of information and viewpoints. I am not an enemy, though I do recognize why my post, without communicating my opinion, was too brief originally. I've tried to rectify that above.
All of this isn't to say that I am perfectly educated on all of this, and understand the nuance of why the era community has reacted the way it has. Part of the reason I posted was to open the door to further understanding and perhaps change my own perspective.
All of this isn't to say that I am perfectly educated on all of this, and understand the nuance of why the era community has reacted the way it has. Part of the reason I posted was to open the door to further understanding and perhaps change my own perspective.
The madman he can't be stoppedThe good ol "if I write an essay to defend myself then I win" tactic.
No one cares.
Read the thread title.And that grey area, to me, is also present in what Dave is doing. Why did he try to go so hard on the LGBT community in this special? Was it really to threaten them?
I do not find myself agreeing with the majority of this forum on this. However, I need a bit of time to gather my thoughts and communicate properly the whys. For clarity, I watched the show a couple nights ago.
This is a lot of blather to skirt around Dave's own words and actionsIs it okay to discuss openly one's conflict about this? Or is the point that I am either "with" everyone or "against" them? Can a person be conflicted about what a comedian is actually trying to say or do they have to instantly know every person's thoughts and intents before they start to talk about that internal conflict?
I think understanding transphobia and its role in the world and how it relates to what Dave is focusing on as opposed to embroiling oneself in the emotional energy it causes when the spectator is exposed to his jokes is important. I can understand the emotion and energy his stand up causes on this topic, and still reject that Dave's intent is what the majority of people say it is. Doesn't a person's statements and actions define intent? Or is it the community's interpretation of those statements and actions? I feel like, especially in historical context, it is way more the former than the latter.
Intent is notoriously difficult to assume or accept. A good recent example is Stephen Colbert IMO. If you look at Stephen Colbert's show after 2016 and the election of Trump, he basically remade his name in Trump's shadow. Trump caused him to become the #1 late night comedian. Do we assume that Colbert rode those coattails from the start, though? Was that his intent? Because recently, he won't even say Trump's name live on air. I would firmly argue that perhaps Colbert rode that awfulness, but that there was a grey point somewhere where he didn't consciously decide to utilize Trump to elevate himself. And from day 1 of Trump's election I was literally curled in a ball in bed over the fact he was elected because I knew what it meant (and what it still means) for the future of the United States and the world. And I was furious at any and all media for the way they had (in my opinion) brought it about. And anyone that benefitted from it turned into some kind of evil for me.
But at what point did Colbert turn from a lucky benefactor into an active benefactor into a regretful benefactor of what was happening? Did he have intent in it? Why did he stop saying Trump's name entirely finally? Should I burn him at the stake for not realizing sooner that his focus on Trump was elevating Trump and that he should stop?
And that grey area, to me, is also present in what Dave is doing. Why did he try to go so hard on the LGBT community in this special? Was it really to threaten them? I am fine with this community's conclusion that his actions in some way harms others - but not that it only harms others.
I think this forum has a very real problem with stating opinions as facts and trying to flame anyone that doesn't align. Please don't tell me that everything you and only you believe is the only truth in this world. That's as bad a take as any on a message board intended for discussion.
Where's the statement from Dave himself on what he was trying to do here? Where is your objective source of truth on the matter? And please don't respond with another opinion. And please don't tell me that EVERYTHING a comedian does can be taken at face value. Their whole purpose is to constantly do things that aren't face value.
This is literally as bad as aligning with the people from whom you are trying to protect in the LGBTQ community, a community of which I am a part (although I am not transgender, for clarity purposes). This is similar to book burning in fahrenheit 451. I am literally communicating a struggle / opinion and you are burning me at the stake for it. Since when did drive by moderation become an acceptable thing on this forum?
I am not trying to justify transphobia. I am trying to speak about the fact that Dave is quite literally addressing all the criticism of himself head on in this special. One can focus on the jokes and feel that emotional fire (I am not per se defending the jokes), or they can focus on his intent with the whole special. I do think the fact that basically his whole special focuses on the LGBTQ community is not a coincidence. I do actually think he is trying (even if one decides his execution is flawed) to say something a bit larger than the sum of the parts of his very targeted jokes. And I think this is where my disagreement with this community lies - to ignore that other part of this special and focus on the way he gets there exclusively, I think, is to miss a lot of important stuff that deserves conversation.
Comedy is actually a panacea for fear, historically speaking. I am not saying this special or the way he went about it is justified. But isn't there perhaps that silver lining? I can understand the community's fear that what Dave did drives certain communities toward more problems with self. Can the community understand my fear that silencing comedy would also increase the danger to those same communities?
You aren't entirely right or wrong. Though as I say above, I am not transgender but identify as a part of the LGBTQ community.
Everyone has an opinion on everything, btw. All you have to do is ask them about it. In this case, a couple non LGBT friends asked me to watch the special and see how I felt about it, so I did. And then I saw this thread and was surprised I didn't feel the same exact way or as strongly as everyone here does.
How is a post like this even allowed when people are calling for my ban for actually communicating my own conflict on the matter? Come on people. This is a message board. It is meant for the exchange of information and viewpoints. I am not an enemy, though I do recognize why my post, without communicating my opinion, was too brief originally. I've tried to rectify that above.
All of this isn't to say that I am perfectly educated on all of this, and understand the nuance of why the era community has reacted the way it has. Part of the reason I posted was to open the door to further understanding and perhaps change my own perspective.
Why is it every bigot has to toss in a minority friend that is supposed to be the avatar of how millions of people potentially feel about their bigotry?
Is it okay to discuss openly one's conflict about this? Or is the point that I am either "with" everyone or "against" them?
Then, as part of the LGBTQ community, you probably know how frustrating it is to have straight people dismiss your concerns or act like their opinions on queer issues are equally or more informed than your own. I, and other trans people, feel the same way about cis people talking about trans people.You aren't entirely right or wrong. Though as I say above, I am not transgender but identify as a part of the LGBTQ community.
Alright, nitpicker. You don't need to state your opinion on everything. You can just listen to trans people in this case.Everyone has an opinion on everything, btw. All you have to do is ask them about it. In this case, a couple non LGBT friends asked me to watch the special and see how I felt about it, so I did. And then I saw this thread and was surprised I didn't feel the same exact way or as strongly as everyone here does.
Narrator: JustinBailey was conflicted about whether transphobia was okay.
Can the community understand my fear that silencing comedy would also increase the danger to those same communities?
Where's the statement from Dave himself on what he was trying to do here? Where is your objective source of truth on the matter? And please don't respond with another opinion. And please don't tell me that EVERYTHING a comedian does can be taken at face value. Their whole purpose is to constantly do things that aren't face value.
You could be playing Dread right now instead of whatever this is.Is it okay to discuss openly one's conflict about this? Or is the point that I am either "with" everyone or "against" them? Can a person be conflicted about what a comedian is actually trying to say or do they have to instantly know every person's thoughts and intents before they start to talk about that internal conflict?
I think understanding transphobia and its role in the world and how it relates to what Dave is focusing on as opposed to embroiling oneself in the emotional energy it causes when the spectator is exposed to his jokes is important. I can understand the emotion and energy his stand up causes on this topic, and still reject that Dave's intent is what the majority of people say it is. Doesn't a person's statements and actions define intent? Or is it the community's interpretation of those statements and actions? I feel like, especially in historical context, it is way more the former than the latter.
Intent is notoriously difficult to assume or accept. A good recent example is Stephen Colbert IMO. If you look at Stephen Colbert's show after 2016 and the election of Trump, he basically remade his name in Trump's shadow. Trump caused him to become the #1 late night comedian. Do we assume that Colbert rode those coattails from the start, though? Was that his intent? Because recently, he won't even say Trump's name live on air. I would firmly argue that perhaps Colbert rode that awfulness, but that there was a grey point somewhere where he didn't consciously decide to utilize Trump to elevate himself. And from day 1 of Trump's election I was literally curled in a ball in bed over the fact he was elected because I knew what it meant (and what it still means) for the future of the United States and the world. And I was furious at any and all media for the way they had (in my opinion) brought it about. And anyone that benefitted from it turned into some kind of evil for me.
But at what point did Colbert turn from a lucky benefactor into an active benefactor into a regretful benefactor of what was happening? Did he have intent in it? Why did he stop saying Trump's name entirely finally? Should I burn him at the stake for not realizing sooner that his focus on Trump was elevating Trump and that he should stop?
And that grey area, to me, is also present in what Dave is doing. Why did he try to go so hard on the LGBT community in this special? Was it really to threaten them? I am fine with this community's conclusion that his actions in some way harms others - but not that it only harms others.
I think this forum has a very real problem with stating opinions as facts and trying to flame anyone that doesn't align. Please don't tell me that everything you and only you believe is the only truth in this world. That's as bad a take as any on a message board intended for discussion.
Where's the statement from Dave himself on what he was trying to do here? Where is your objective source of truth on the matter? And please don't respond with another opinion. And please don't tell me that EVERYTHING a comedian does can be taken at face value. Their whole purpose is to constantly do things that aren't face value.
This is literally as bad as aligning with the people from whom you are trying to protect in the LGBTQ community, a community of which I am a part (although I am not transgender, for clarity purposes). This is similar to book burning in fahrenheit 451. I am literally communicating a struggle / opinion and you are burning me at the stake for it. Since when did drive by moderation become an acceptable thing on this forum?
I am not trying to justify transphobia. I am trying to speak about the fact that Dave is quite literally addressing all the criticism of himself head on in this special. One can focus on the jokes and feel that emotional fire (I am not per se defending the jokes), or they can focus on his intent with the whole special. I do think the fact that basically his whole special focuses on the LGBTQ community is not a coincidence. I do actually think he is trying (even if one decides his execution is flawed) to say something a bit larger than the sum of the parts of his very targeted jokes. And I think this is where my disagreement with this community lies - to ignore that other part of this special and focus on the way he gets there exclusively, I think, is to miss a lot of important stuff that deserves conversation.
Comedy is actually a panacea for fear, historically speaking. I am not saying this special or the way he went about it is justified. But isn't there perhaps that silver lining? I can understand the community's fear that what Dave did drives certain communities toward more problems with self. Can the community understand my fear that silencing comedy would also increase the danger to those same communities?
You aren't entirely right or wrong. Though as I say above, I am not transgender but identify as a part of the LGBTQ community.
Everyone has an opinion on everything, btw. All you have to do is ask them about it. In this case, a couple non LGBT friends asked me to watch the special and see how I felt about it, so I did. And then I saw this thread and was surprised I didn't feel the same exact way or as strongly as everyone here does.
How is a post like this even allowed when people are calling for my ban for actually communicating my own conflict on the matter? Come on people. This is a message board. It is meant for the exchange of information and viewpoints. I am not an enemy, though I do recognize why my post, without communicating my opinion, was too brief originally. I've tried to rectify that above.
All of this isn't to say that I am perfectly educated on all of this, and understand the nuance of why the era community has reacted the way it has. Part of the reason I posted was to open the door to further understanding and perhaps change my own perspective.
I've yet to meet a liberal, left-leaning person IRL that either holds some or all of what we consider to be TERF stances/views. That's obviously not even counting the right leaning folks in my orbit, who don't even view trans folks as people of merit/value anyway.