Its honestly a lot simpler to send a message to the devs by getting refunds or telling people to not buy the game.
Which Jim's video managed to do.
Which Jim's video managed to do.
Compulsion Games on We Happy Few Bugs, Drugs, Gearbox
- Thread starter Pikachu
- Start date
Jim basically took the quote and interpreted beeing sad and sadness as cynical depression and called them out for having reckless and dangerous views.
Imho Jim fucked up here. Sadness is not depression, I don't know why he would say that, since it's trivializing depression.
I'm not sure how that solves the issue with the original statement.
I'm not saying the writer has should be harassed over it, far from it. The internet brings out the worst in people.
But I do have issues with the statement and I don't think it's unfair to discuss such issues.
It was irresponsible because he knows his crowd and what they do when he rants. And he decided to make that rant without making any attempt to try to understand the quote. It wasn't a case of "misinterpretation". It was him setting up and attacking a strawman, based off his own feelings.
What do you want him to do? Not talk about an issue close to his heart because some assholes will be assholes if he does? Is that what we've devolved into? You can't risk calling anything out out of fear that people will harass others because of it? We can't call out hate or racism or anything because the person doing it might get harassed?!
ok, yeah, Jim kind of missed the mark there.
The game and quote isn't about people who actually need medication for depression using it.
It's about people who DON'T need it using it. A future where people who feel any pang of sadness or even a slight moment of boredom feel the need to erase those feelings and just be obliviously happy all the time. Where the government is using drugs to control the populace and have convinced everyone that it's in their own best interest, because who wouldn't want to be happy all the time?
Bad form, Jim. Bad form.
Nah. He was far from the only person who had an issue with the quote and if the language you use in your statement about drug culture and depression is squirrely, yeah people are going to hit you on.
Agreed. While he was maybe a bit too over the top in his anger his video wasn't even that bad. The people who are attacking the devs can get fucked, they're the shitty ones. I highly doubt Jim Sterling condones harassment seeing as how the whole reason he stopped doing reviews was due to being harassed. I thought Dan Ryckert's comments on the Giant Bomb quick look were worse than Jim's. You could hear Vinny in the video trying to reign him in. At least Jim talked about how he liked the story and setting. All Dan did was shit on everything, and play the game horribly and blame the game for it.
Also the social justice and "retail games need to be $60" comments are kind of troubling.
Who is he (or you) to decide who needs it and who doesn't need it? These drugs are prescribed by qualified doctors, not forum posters or people on twitter or game developers. This developer is shaming people who use anti-depressants, telling them to just be sad instead. That's not how clinical depression works and is a dangerous viewpoint.
All sorts of medication are being over prescribed and used in this day and age. ADHD pills, opiods, and even antidepressants. It's not only an issue in the U.S. but also around the world. In my home country of Iran people pass around pills like trading cards. They'll say things like "Oh you you were breathing a little heavily yesterday? Have some Propranolol", "Oh you're scared of dogs? Here are 30 Xanax pills you won't get scared". :P It is a real issue, and I'm glad that the game devs thought to have that as PART of the influence in the games story.
MY INTERPRETATION of the games' message was that people are afraid of even the slightest bit of discomfort and will jump to pills even when they really don't need them. They take pills, and never regularly keep up with their doctors (which is what you are supposed to do). It's not an attack on people who genuinely need the stuff. It's a criticism of over use by people who don't need them (and the insurance companies who push them) and are afraid of some semblance of discomfort in their lives. :? Many people that go to doctors provided by insurance companies tend to be misdiagnosed. Because of the lack of mental health education in modern society most people won't be able to tell they are overreacting and being misdiagnosed. :( Any slight semblance of nervousness or stress will be purposely misconstrued as anxiety or depression to push pills, and people will gladly take them to be comfortable which isn't right nor healthy. People who are taking pills when they shouldn't be get a whole slew of shitty side effects then complain and make the stigma around mental health worse
I say this as someone who has been on SSRI's for 21 years. :P Before you jump on any meds, you get multiple doctors opinions, ask questions, read, have a sense of self awareness, AND keep up regularly with your doctor so you can eventually get off the stuff if possible, That way you are 100% sure you need this stuff. Jim over reacted imo (it happens to the best of us :P) and I believe many other people as well. I appreciate this games' attempt at bringing this issue to light. Could it have been done better? Maybe, but it was still a decent attempt IMO :)
Sources just cuz I try my best not to pull stuff out of my booty :P
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-iran-drug-addiction-2016-story.html
https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUH-FFR1-2016/NSDUH-FFR1-2016.pdf
https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2016/adderall-misuse-rising-among-young-adults.html
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2016.303061
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/symptoms-causes/syc-20376813
Last edited:
Jim's not at fault. If he had told his audience "go tell Compulsion that they are a bunch of half assed developers who deserve to be attacked and harassed because of the broken mess they made." Then he would have been inciting violence, but he didn't do that. I watched the video and he never comes close to that. There's a difference in critiquing harshly and inciting violence. Hopefully we can figure that out before we throw youtubers under the bus.
is people that don't need antidepressants taking them... even a thing? or is this just "what if this good thing... was bad, actually"
like, ssris don't make you happy. they just sometimes put you at a baseline of neutral emotion. opioids make you happy, but abuse of those is a noted epidemic and, uh, not really in line with "not valuing sadness"
I said this in the original thread, Jim got everything wrong about the overmedication and I is good to see people showing how his behavior impacts other people's lives.
When you make people's lives miserable taking responsibility for it is not enough
I think the division in opinion over this quote comes down to how you view the phrase "prescription drug culture". Some view it as a criticism of anti-depressants in general, others view it as a criticism of prescription drug abuse as a recreational habit. I'm not that well informed on the matter, but I've heard about over-prescription and misuse of benzodiapazine for a while now.
It would be like criticising the over-prescription of antibiotics. It's not the same as saying they're unnecessary.
It's also worth noting that Joy isn't really an anti-depressant, it's a psychedelic and memory suppressant.
Like in his videos Jim has been and can vitriolic as fuck which is part of his brand and that's unfortunate, but I have never seen him direct or even appear to attempt to direct his fan base to attack anyone and he's gone out of his way to decry that type of behavior.
Jim knows "those assholes" butter his bread. Jims brand of content is tailor made for those people and he knows it.
This is like Alex Jones whipping up the crazies then pretending to be surprised and appalled when on of them shoots up a church.
He didn't just speak on an issue. He went on an angry rant and slapped it in a video that had nothing to do with the game. Again he knows what he's doing. He's made a bunch of money off of this.
And furthermore he's the one who equated sadness to clinical depression, he may need to look in the mirror to find the problem here.
In the Anglosphere, it's quite common to view people who refuse to smile constantly as though they have something wrong with them. The idea that being anything less than artificially chipper in public, particularly if you're a woman, is viewed with suspicion is not a particularly controversial idea.
Last edited:
Overprescription is an issue worldwide. I don't think that's a controversial statement to make.
I've gotta say, watching Jim's rant...does it not sound like he is literally threatening the narrative director? I guess my point is that a Youtuber like SuperBunnyHop wouldn't go for a hot take like this--he'd reach out to the devs, or he'd dig deeper into the narrative to get a sense of what it was like.
Okay, but why not ask for clarification? Instead, Jim (and others) have just assumed the worst and ran with it.
I've gotta say, watching Jim's rant...does it not sound like he is literally threatening the narrative director? I guess my point is that a Youtuber like SuperBunnyHop wouldn't go for a hot take like this--he'd reach out to the devs, or he'd dig deeper into the narrative to get a sense of what it was like.
Okay, but why not ask for clarification? Instead, Jim (and others) have just assumed the worst and ran with it.
OP
OP
The quote is certainly at least a bit ambiguous and I can see how one can take it as belittling depression as sadness. But because there's ambiguity I don't think it's fair to crucify a dev for it when it seems clear now that's not what they intended. Interviews are typically live events and don't leave you with a few minutes to think about each answer. IDK.
I agree with you. I suppose there is two ways of reading it, and depending on how you do the quote is either reckless or fine. This is why it's important to choose words carefully, especially if you're on a soapbox. The developer did not choose his words very carefully, and waded into an issue that is very complex and is literally a life or death matter for many people nonchalantly. I think it's fair to discuss that as Jim has and we are.
Well that's the issue with the statement because you can read whatever you want to into the statement they made. If you're going to talk about an issue like that which affects such a large part of the population you needed to be very precise with your language.
It's easy to get refunds on Steam, but good luck on consoles.
Always wait for a technical analysis these days, folks.
There was no squirrely language. Jim added the squirly language in order to bolster his attack. And to my knowledge that quote was made a while ago and we are just now hearing the internet be mad about it after jims video.
The words were very precise. The words Depression or anti-depressants was never used. Anyone injecting those words into the conversation is the one making the irresponsible connection.
He didn't add anything and besides that I've seen other people take issue with the statement before Jim made his video.
Personally, I think the phrase "value sadness" doesn't really gel with the rest of the quote either. Without that, it comes across as a fairly reasonable criticism that society as a whole is not comfortable expressing negative emotion, preferring instead to indulge in quick and easy coping mechanisms, in this case recreational drug use. "Value sadness" comes across as saying "sadness is good", rather than "we need to be more open with discussing when we're not okay".
Imo I don't see depression being a part of the sentiment. Guilt is the negative thing they're trying to suppress in the game. But I don't have as much of a history with depression and the like than others, so naturally my reading is going to be different coming from a different perspective.
Everything Jim does is an angry rant, that's literally what he does, and most of us can understand its satire and laugh. Jim has plenty of sensible viewers like many people on ResetEra who can enjoy his rants without resorting to hate. I think it's insulting to lump his entire audience together as some sort of hate group. Let's be real, pretty much everyone with any notoriety has terrible people following them who do terrible things based on tweets or jokes, etc. Silence out of fear of the worst people doing the worst things is not an acceptable answer.
I and many others take issue with the quote as is as well - it appears there is multiple ways to view it. I suppose those of us with a history closer to clinical depression take more offense to it.
OK, but it's a discussion about "prescription drugs" and "sadness", not sure how one doesn't immediately think he's talking about anti-depressants.
The quote mentions being sad and taking drugs. Most people are going to assume depression and anti-depressants. If you're going to say something like that, then be clear about it.
I seriously think that people who're upset about that sadness quote need to calm down a bit and reread the actual quote because unless you actually want to read malicious intent into it, it does not say what you seem to think it does and claiming that it's about anti-depressants is quite honestly missing the point and putting words into that poor guy's mouth.
Now about the game being released in a buggy state... On the one hand, of course, no proper developer wants their game to release full of bugs, with bad performance or a lack of polish so it's not that I think Compulsion purposely tried to dupe consumers or whatever (unlike what Gearbox pulled with Colonial Marines). However, depending on how widespread these bugs actually are, I do think it's a serious issue and consumers do have a right to be upset about it. (Just to clarify, being upset about something and harassing others over something are two different things entirely.) Likewise, the developers/publisher have an obligation to fix the issues which it sounds like they're trying to do.
That being said, I'll keep stroking my Gearbox hate boner, thank you very much. I'm sure there are lots of perfectly lovely people at Gearbox and I've got nothing against them. It also sounds like Compulsion have had a positive working relationship with them which is great. But you cannot tell me that the BS they pulled with Colonial Marines does not deserve people's ire or that it's somehow unreasonable for people to hold a grudge against them or be sceptical of their output going forward.
Now about the game being released in a buggy state... On the one hand, of course, no proper developer wants their game to release full of bugs, with bad performance or a lack of polish so it's not that I think Compulsion purposely tried to dupe consumers or whatever (unlike what Gearbox pulled with Colonial Marines). However, depending on how widespread these bugs actually are, I do think it's a serious issue and consumers do have a right to be upset about it. (Just to clarify, being upset about something and harassing others over something are two different things entirely.) Likewise, the developers/publisher have an obligation to fix the issues which it sounds like they're trying to do.
That being said, I'll keep stroking my Gearbox hate boner, thank you very much. I'm sure there are lots of perfectly lovely people at Gearbox and I've got nothing against them. It also sounds like Compulsion have had a positive working relationship with them which is great. But you cannot tell me that the BS they pulled with Colonial Marines does not deserve people's ire or that it's somehow unreasonable for people to hold a grudge against them or be sceptical of their output going forward.
Gamers take the medium too seriously. Sorry about the harassment the guy is getting and yes, the world would be a better place if we just respected each.
The game is bad.
If the developers actually decided to clarify that statement instead of doubling down like that, completely ignoring the (legitimate) concerns about their handing of depression and anti-depressants, I would have a lot less apathy. Nobody deserves to be harassed, but calling out "social justice warriors" doing it isn't a good look.
In the best case scenario I think the quote was reckless. I'd hope he meant what you guys are referring to, which is prescription drug MISUSE, but he does not specifically say that and you guys are reading that into the quote. There is nothing wrong with someone having a discussion about why they think such a quote is dangerous.
If it convinces one clinically depressed person not to go on anti-depressants because they should "embrace sadness" and not be part of the "prescription drug culture" the dev frowns upon, that's a problem to me.
Last edited:
Not necessarily. Sadness and depression are not at all equivalent, and humanity has been indulging in recreational drug use to cope with the former since we first learned to ferment alcohol.
I'm mostly glad to know that a lot of others can't stand that guy. Obviously, he's very much a wrestling gimmick in style of presentation and gimmick - which I don't mind, I didn't even mind his video on this topic, but stirring up stuff online against any creators just seems like a horrible thing to enjoy doing with how things snowball out of control.
The angry thing is very out-played. Be loud or be voiceless I suppose, gotta stick out somehow...
The angry thing is very out-played. Be loud or be voiceless I suppose, gotta stick out somehow...
That's fine. I was just saying that I found Dan's tone just as bad, if not worse, than Jim's. Singling out Jim seems silly when plenty of places are putting the game in a bad light right now.
Agreed.
Would actually like to hear the narrative director lay out how they really feel about this discussion in more in depth.
As it is now, theres more than a few ways to take that quote. Most of them not positively for me.
The problem stems from the fact that the reason they are using this drug called joy was because something the populace willingly did that was dark and awful and regretted it, and became deeply traumatized from it.
I'm reserving judgement on how the game deals with the anti-depressant issue until I either see an LP or read some good criticism from people who have played the game through. That statement from the narrative director definitely made me raise an eyebrow though. "Prescription drug culture" isn't something Epstein came up with on the spot, it's a powerfully loaded stock phrase that's often been used to attack people who genuinely need the help. Telling them they should toss the pills, toughen up, go take a walk and you'll cheer up. "You shouldn't take a pill just because you're sad" is how people who dangerously fail to understand what depression is talk about depression.
That's not at all what they're doing.
As I said, they made a fictional game in a fictional setting imaging what would happen if the entire populace was on mind-altering drugs.
Sadness and depression are two wholly different things.
The only people making that irresponsible equation are those who want to criticize the quote.
It's you guys pushing that "reckless" narrative. Not the dev that made the statement.
Probably not, or not very widespread. Which is what makes this game FICTION.
He was not talking about his fictional world. I have no issue with his fictional world. He was making a comment our OUR world very clearly.
None of the devs or writers should be getting harassed full stop.
That said, what the hell is up with labeling the harassers "SJWs" and "Social Justice advocates"? And then what the hell is the both siding social justice warriors and the alt-right?? Super bad look.
Call the harassers what they are, shithead harassers and evil human beings. Don't impugn people who support social justice, wtf?
That said, what the hell is up with labeling the harassers "SJWs" and "Social Justice advocates"? And then what the hell is the both siding social justice warriors and the alt-right?? Super bad look.
Call the harassers what they are, shithead harassers and evil human beings. Don't impugn people who support social justice, wtf?
I agree with you. My wife suffers from depression and I know all too well how often people think she's just "being sad" and should get over it. That being said, you mention drugs and you mention sadness and the general public is going to assume you're talking about people who take anti-depressants whether the assumption is correct or not. I wish it was common enough knowledge about how sadness and depression are very different, but it's not.
That because a lot of people everywhere have an issue with the quote, they're getting attacked by mental health advocates and also hateful alt-right trolls who attack anything they can for fun. Perhaps we're reading into it more than should be read, but I haven't exactly seen the writer come out and explain what he meant and apologize for the ambiguity.
Last edited:
Your still yet to point out were he shames people who use anti-depressants.