Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,666
A good (serious) opinion piece to accompany the article: https://qz.com/quartzy/1265902/why-im-giving-up-on-intersectional-feminism/

A choice quote:
Appreciate you posting this. Depressing to read (though positive in her resulting conviction) but entirely understandable. There really is no avoiding the past on this one, and those that clamour for equality while denying the elements that have worked to prevent it do no service to those still facing oppression.
 

SemRockwel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
509
I didn't realize Intersectional Feminism got taken over by white people too. Damn.

Whitness in modern society is like a poison.
 

Lifendz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,398
I'm willing to bet he got this material from his wife.

I used to listen to his podcast and he would often talk about how white women are the only demographic that consistently gets offended and would lecture him about what he can say at comedy clubs. They've been the source of his comedic ire for some time now. This isn't Nea having an influence on what he said; this is coming from his firsthand experience as a standup in comedy clubs across the country.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,372
Gentrified Brooklyn
I see we reached the 'The racism is wrong, but you need to be nicer to the white women while telling them they are racist' part of the post, lol.

Like was debated before, this gaslighting is a big reason why forms of racism not only occurs, thrives. Everyone was shocked At Amy Cooper's blatant racism...but let's break down what happened. It's not how she called the cops and filed a fake racist report, people do that shit all the time. It was the theatrics involved; she knew if she knew if she played up the fact that she was the victim people would rush to defend her.

Here we've got a vague hypothetical of a white woman with gucci boots and people are running into the post defend her because they wanted Burr to be nicer while calling them out on their racist shit. Now imagine you're a black woman who tries to call out a co-workers microaggressions and she pulls out the tears, how many managers of all stripes are going to be able to see past the 'angry black woman' stereotype the white woman is presenting by that additional microaggression, on top of 'Well she's a white woman crying, so something wrong had to have happened'.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
disappointed Shy hasn't posted my image
raicsm-bird-box.jpg
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,959
As a white woman, I thought the bit was spot on. I almost didn't see it because of the preceding whining about cancel culture, but I resisted my urge to shut it off.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,679
Chicago
I used to listen to his podcast and he would often talk about how white women are the only demographic that consistently gets offended and would lecture him about what he can say at comedy clubs. They've been the source of his comedic ire for some time now. This isn't Nea having an influence on what he said; this is coming from his firsthand experience as a standup in comedy clubs across the country.
Huh? While this might be true I've listen to his wife lecture him on white privilege a couple of times I'm pretty sure.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,397
wtf? An alt account has stuck around since the beginning of the site? Wild.
It happens sometimes. The signup process at the very beginning was pretty loose, and the Neogaf alt-right(Nazis) were in peak "fuck SJWs" mode. There's probably a fair number of alt accounts sitting in the user database somewhere, waiting for some troll to remember they made one.
 

Deleted member 27246

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,066
It happens sometimes. The signup process at the very beginning was pretty loose, and the Neogaf alt-right(Nazis) were in peak "fuck SJWs" mode. There's probably a fair number of alt accounts sitting in the user database somewhere, waiting for some troll to remember they made one.

This person was pretty active though. She had like 1800 something posts. Apart from the ones in this thread pretty normal ones too.
 

b3llydrum

Member
Feb 21, 2018
4,147
He's not wrong about this at all, but not knowing the guy whatsoever this feels a little too indulgent in the "yelling at women to sit down" area.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,741
The joke about Pride Month was not that it shouldn't exist, but rather wondering why do LGBT people get a full 30 days during the summer full of parades and black people get February, which is the shortest month during a miserable time of year, and no parades.

His solution wasn't to end Pride. It was to put Black History Month right after it, so that everyone gets an awesome summer month, and black LGBT people in particular get 61 days.

He was literally being intersectional by first subverting the point through the questioning of Pride Month.

Nothing he said about that was wrong either.
The framing of this as an attack on LGBT is very disingenuous, it came on as a segment on access Hollywood yesterday where they didn't even mention him speaking about white women. Like you said, he never said take the month away his argument was the the month comparison.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,762
It happens sometimes. The signup process at the very beginning was pretty loose, and the Neogaf alt-right(Nazis) were in peak "fuck SJWs" mode. There's probably a fair number of alt accounts sitting in the user database somewhere, waiting for some troll to remember they made one.

Has any resettler being found with alts ? I remember the invites being managed by discord
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissive concern trolling in a sensitive topic. Prior serious bans for similar behavior
perhaps blancofemophobia is the way forward. nothing else manages to bring white men, black men and black women together. The ultimate populist coalition. The one thing that cuts across race and gender lines. The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of Karen hate. Imagine the memes. I'm here for it.
 

Fuu

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
Love me some old Billy Redface. Started listening to his podcast again after a while and it's a fun time as usual. His sports talk is good white noise when I'm working out too, lol. Shame Nia doesn't join as often these days because she's usually with the kids while he's recording.
 

-Peabody-

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,609
He was rubbing me the wrong way during the beginning of the lgbt bit but pulled me back in at the end with the July part.

I honestly preferred the Michelle Wolf set someone linked.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,137
The framing of this as an attack on LGBT is very disingenuous, it came on as a segment on access Hollywood yesterday where they didn't even mention him speaking about white women. Like you said, he never said take the month away his argument was the the month comparison.
I will say, I don't think it's entirely disingenuous. I understand readings from people that say his framing of Pride Month within the set-up is dismissive, especially in the context of any of his past views on LGBT people. Hell, even I tensed up a little bit when he asked "Why do you guys get a whole month when you weren't enslaved?" That is riding the line, so like, I'm not gonna blame anyone for feeling that way about that part. I just do ultimately think that the punchline itself ends on a positive note for both LGBT and black people, and I think that's important. The last bit this dumbass, old white guy said was "Black LGBT people get 61 days." I'll take it.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,410
perhaps blancofemophobia is the way forward. nothing else manages to bring white men, black men and black women together. The ultimate populist coalition. The one thing that cuts across race and gender lines. The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of Karen hate. Imagine the memes. I'm here for it.

Maybe you should take this seriously
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,410
I will say, I don't think it's entirely disingenuous. I understand readings from people that say his framing of Pride Month within the set-up is dismissive, especially in the context of any of his past views on LGBT people. Hell, even I tensed up a little bit when he asked "Why do you guys get a whole month when you weren't enslaved?" That is riding the line, so like, I'm not gonna blame anyone for feeling that way about that part. I just do ultimately think that the punchline itself ends on a positive note for both LGBT and black people, and I think that's important. The last bit this dumbass, old white guy said was "Black LGBT people get 61 days." I'll take it.

I still maintain this is a charitable take, that he hasn't earned. The whole reason he brings up Pride is to contrast it as something unimportant, it's there to suggest that Pride being in June makes it somehow extra absurd that Black History Month is in February.

I think his last punchline isn't an indication he thinks differently of Pride. It's that well since it exists at least now it can actually do something good. There's nothing in bis set that suggests he has a different view on Pride by the end. It's clear its existence in the joke is to be seen as silly, over indulgent, not important. He doesn't walk back his questioning if LGBT people really need a month.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
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Oct 25, 2017
21,579
Sweden
checked this monologue out now. was kind of hoping for it to go into a lot more depth. this seems like a rather shallow discussion of the subject. i guess the venue and context of national televesion for idiots (snl) doesn't allow for deeper takes

(not saying i disagree at all, just that i was hoping for a bit more depth, with examples and going through the history of white feminism, as people in this thread have done a good job of doing. i felt like i didn't learn anything from this segment. probably a me problem of having way too high expectations for an snl monologue of all things lol)
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
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7,208
checked this monologue out now. was kind of hoping for it to go into a lot more depth. this seems like a rather shallow discussion of the subject. i guess the venue and context of national televesion for idiots (snl) doesn't allow for deeper takes

(not saying i disagree at all, just that i was hoping for a bit more depth, with examples and going through the history of white feminism, as people in this thread have done a good job of doing. i felt like i didn't learn anything from this segment. probably a me problem of having way too high expectations for an snl monologue of all things lol)
I was about to say....it's not like this was some longform discussion, it was a short stand-up monologue for the SNL intro lol.
 

Bulby

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
Berlin
checked this monologue out now. was kind of hoping for it to go into a lot more depth. this seems like a rather shallow discussion of the subject. i guess the venue and context of national televesion for idiots (snl) doesn't allow for deeper takes

(not saying i disagree at all, just that i was hoping for a bit more depth, with examples and going through the history of white feminism, as people in this thread have done a good job of doing. i felt like i didn't learn anything from this segment. probably a me problem of having way too high expectations for an snl monologue of all things lol)

I mean, hes a comedian. Hes just there to take the piss and try and make you laugh. He isnt trying to run some politcal platform.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,579
Sweden
I mean, hes a comedian. Hes just there to take the piss and try and make you laugh. He isnt trying to run some politcal platform.
guess i'm spoiled by stuff like last week tonight or leftist youtubers that are also funny

people that teach you something while making you laugh

but i understand that my expectations were clearly miscalibrated and i'll just have to hold this L now
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,137
I still maintain this is a charitable take, that he hasn't earned. The whole reason he brings up Pride is to contrast it as something unimportant, it's there to suggest that Pride being in June makes it somehow extra absurd that Black History Month is in February.

I think his last punchline isn't an indication he thinks differently of Pride. It's that well since it exists at least now it can actually do something good. There's nothing in bis set that suggests he has a different view on Pride by the end. It's clear its existence in the joke is to be seen as silly, over indulgent, not important. He doesn't walk back his questioning if LGBT people really need a month.
I'm listening to the bit again. Here's what he says:

"I learned that June is Pride Month. That's a little long, don't you think? For people who weren't enslaved. How did they get all of June? Black people were actually enslaved; they get February."

I don't take this part as to mean that he thinks the existence of Pride is frivolous or unimportant, as in it shouldn't exist at all. He is definitely contrasting struggle though (and I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling mad about that, even though it is integral to the payoff), by effectively saying it's not fair that a group of people who have collectively suffered more than another group get the shortest month of the year to celebrate. But this isn't inherently an indictment of Pride's existence. It's him saying he personally thinks black people deserve as much as, or a little more than, LGBT people.

To me, it's no different than if I were to say "I did more work than you, but I got paid less. That's not fair." You could read that statement to mean both "You deserve to get paid less" OR "I deserve to get paid what I'm worth;" it would depend upon the context of my personality and follow up dialogue. In Bill's case, the follow-up to that was "Give black people July," so I'm inclined to believe, within the context of this joke, that the point was indeed a more charitable reading: that both groups deserve long summer months to party.

And I'm gonna be honest here. If he had used Black History Month to contrast against the lack of a visible and sincerely-celebrated Native Pride/Awareness Month, I as a black person wouldn't have balked, nor would I have thought "Damn, he thinks we don't even get to have BHM." I know it's not kosher to rank atrocities and oppression for a couple of reasons. A.) It can easily foster division, and B.) Once you're past the line of bigotry, it doesn't really matter how far you go into that territory. Bigotry is bigotry, and the fight is to stamp that shit out........ But I'm not about to sit here and think I have it worse than Native Americans, in terms of visibility, access to opportunity and social and civil services, cultural relevance, the ease of our fights. I'm just fucking not.

Now, I got on this Pride train relatively late in my lifespan, and I really haven't figured my place out within it yet. So there's still some sort of Imposter Syndrome I have with it all, or a lack of experience with it all that makes me feel inclined to not talk about it as much. But you mentioned earlier that he should have deconstructed the intersectionality of race and queerness, so let's jump into that, and you and others are free to rip this to shreds.

Pride is white as fuck, despite the fact that Stonewall was spearheaded by black LGBT women. LGBT acceptance is white as fuck, because that's mostly who I see on TV as representation. A lot of LGBT culture is painfully cribbed from black culture, specifically the presumed mannerisms of black women. There is an unspoken of leg-up to making inroads with LGBT acceptance, and that is that white people can be LGBT which inevitably has forced white conservative fuckwads to confront their bigotry when one of their family members reveals their truth, which is not an advantage black people have. White people don't like us, they don't deal with us, they don't want to know about us. If only black and brown people could be LGBT, I guaran-fucking-tee you Obergefell wouldn't have even be a thing on the table. I mean hell, we're still fighting to secure goddamn voting rights.

So you better fucking BELIEVE I think we as black folks deserve July.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,081
Houston
Bill Burr's other possibly problematic shit doesn't erase the truth of his statement about white women benefiting from white supremacy and rushing to the "front line" (as in, throwing WoC under the bus to advance their own cause). And saying that he's not a good messenger for white people to absorb that message is just... well, honestly, who the hell is at this point? Perhaps it's true that some whites would dismiss him out of hand, or react with anger (well, ain't no "perhaps" there lol, white fragility being so common).... But, if a black man or woman had said it, they'd just be ignored by white people, like every PoC who said the same thing before them have been ignored.
It's not like white people were ever such great champions at listening to PoC, right? And it's not like anyone expected a comedian to suddenly effect great change in combatting white supremacy, but hopefully it planted a seed in some fragile whites's minds and caused some introspection. So yeah, I don't buy that he's the "wrong" messenger or whatever. If anything, it probably has more reach, at the very least.
this.

people saying Bill Burr is the wrong person, who is? or that he shouldnt say anything because he's a straight white male. I hear "we need white allies to speak out" well here's a straight white male speaking on the issue. and people are like he shouldn't cause he's white male. Is it perfect, of course not it was a SNL monologue for like 5 minutes. Its not last week tonight with jon oliver.
 

Banglish

Banned
Dec 16, 2017
171
guess i'm spoiled by stuff like last week tonight or leftist youtubers that are also funny

people that teach you something while making you laugh

but i understand that my expectations were clearly miscalibrated and i'll just have to hold this L now

I think a lot of the heat is from people who don't really "get" Bill Burr's shtick. If you've watched Burr, you kind of know he's like a bluecollar rough bostonian.. so his angle to setup these jokes makes a lot of sense. I used to hate Burr cause I didn't understand his comedy, but he's been doing racial comedy for a while now, dude killed it on Chapelle show, the absolute epitome of racial comedy of my generation imo.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,666
I'm listening to the bit again. Here's what he says:

"I learned that June is Pride Month. That's a little long, don't you think? For people who weren't enslaved. How did they get all of June? Black people were actually enslaved; they get February."

I don't take this part as to mean that he thinks the existence of Pride is frivolous or unimportant, as in it shouldn't exist at all. He is definitely contrasting struggle though (and I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling mad about that, even though it is integral to the payoff), by effectively saying it's not fair that a group of people who have collectively suffered more than another group get the shortest month of the year to celebrate. But this isn't inherently an indictment of Pride's existence. It's him saying he personally thinks black people deserve as much as, or a little more than, LGBT people.

To me, it's no different than if I were to say "I did more work than you, but I got paid less. That's not fair." You could read that statement to mean both "You deserve to get paid less" OR "I deserve to get paid what I'm worth;" it would depend upon the context of my personality and follow up dialogue. In Bill's case, the follow-up to that was "Give black people July," so I'm inclined to believe, within the context of this joke, that the point was indeed a more charitable reading: that both groups deserve long summer months to party.

And I'm gonna be honest here. If he had used Black History Month to contrast against the lack of a visible and sincerely-celebrated Native Pride/Awareness Month, I as a black person wouldn't have balked, nor would I have thought "Damn, he thinks we don't even get to have BHM." I know it's not kosher to rank atrocities and oppression for a couple of reasons. A.) It can easily foster division, and B.) Once you're past the line of bigotry, it doesn't really matter how far you go into that territory. Bigotry is bigotry, and the fight is to stamp that shit out........ But I'm not about to sit here and think I have it worse than Native Americans, in terms of visibility, access to opportunity and social and civil services, cultural relevance, the ease of our fights. I'm just fucking not.

Now, I got on this Pride train relatively late in my lifespan, and I really haven't figured my place out within it yet. So there's still some sort of Imposter Syndrome I have with it all, or a lack of experience with it all that makes me feel inclined to not talk about it as much. But you mentioned earlier that he should have deconstructed the intersectionality of race and queerness, so let's jump into that, and you and others are free to rip this to shreds.

Pride is white as fuck, despite the fact that Stonewall was spearheaded by black LGBT women. LGBT acceptance is white as fuck, because that's mostly who I see on TV as representation. A lot of LGBT culture is painfully cribbed from black culture, specifically the presumed mannerisms of black women. There is an unspoken of leg-up to making inroads with LGBT acceptance, and that is that white people can be LGBT which inevitably has forced white conservative fuckwads to confront their bigotry when one of their family members reveals their truth, which is not an advantage black people have. White people don't like us, they don't deal with us, they don't want to know about us. If only black and brown people could be LGBT, I guaran-fucking-tee you Obergefell wouldn't have even be a thing on the table. I mean hell, we're still fighting to secure goddamn voting rights.

So you better fucking BELIEVE I think we as black folks deserve July.

Not really anything to contest. You're on point and you deserve July, and a lot more after that. I do still think you're giving more of a nuanced thought to it (which is a credible translation even if I don't think Burr took it as far) than the guy that refers to trans women as dickless dudes.

Which is good because it's using it to have a discussion worth having, even if I don't extend the credit for the thoughts you're presenting to Burr.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,679
Chicago
The fact that Bill does say very problematic things and can still address this blindspot that many white liberals have is pretty telling.

Instead of doing any introspection people have resorted to running purity test on Bill and saying people agreeing with him shouldn't because of some of his more problematic stances.

No one is exempting Bill for being an asshole but why is it that this asshole can see through whiteness better than some progressives?

I've heard snippets of his podcast and generally he comes off as a down to earth guy that puts on a front for his comedy routines. Albeit, still pretty bigoted in his LGBTQ views that his wife often argues with him for.
 

Bob White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,948
Here we've got a vague hypothetical of a white woman with gucci boots and people are running into the post defend her because they wanted Burr to be nicer while calling them out on their racist shit. Now imagine you're a black woman who tries to call out a co-workers microaggressions and she pulls out the tears, how many managers of all stripes are going to be able to see past the 'angry black woman' stereotype the white woman is presenting by that additional microaggression, on top of 'Well she's a white woman crying, so something wrong had to have happened'.

Man, this reminds me of that "IRL" streamer saying racist shit to people at denny's, then when some black dudes called them out, you hear the white chick with the streamer guy yelp out "I'm scared! Stop!"

That shit had me livid. It's all the fucking Karen ass microaggression you described boiled down into seconds. Literally what Bill is talking about. Standing by watching "passively" as her white male friends show their ass as she does FUCKING NOTHING. Then plays her "white woman in danger!!" card getting the black family thrown out.

time stamped

 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,377
I think a lot of the heat is from people who don't really "get" Bill Burr's shtick. If you've watched Burr, you kind of know he's like a bluecollar rough bostonian.. so his angle to setup these jokes makes a lot of sense. I used to hate Burr cause I didn't understand his comedy, but he's been doing racial comedy for a while now, dude killed it on Chapelle show, the absoute epitome of racial comedy of my generation imo.

Burr's old stuff is really problematic. He's cut from that same cloth as a lot of the early 2000s stand-ups where maximum offense all the time was "acceptable" and he did a fair amount of punching down. I think he operates under the guise of being a provocateur and sometimes that hits (this did) and sometimes its just an excuse to be kind of shitty. When I was in NYC still and saw more standup a bunch of the people cut from this cloth have had a hard-time updating their schtick. Colin Quinn basically still tells also his racist jokes but just starts with "My racist uncle is like Puerto Ricans are super loud" and then just tells the same jokes he was slinging in the 2000s and occasionally peppers in "You can't say that anymore Uncle!" to cover his tracks. The audience eats it up, but its just an excuse to make it 'ok' to laugh at racist jokes. It was kind of a weird moment in comedy where being an in-person shock jock was the easiest way to a laugh.

The biggest issue I had with his SNL schtick was his lazy ass anti-cancel culture jokes at the start. I have issues with Burr in general, but I agree with most of his take. The LGBTQ stuff I think didn't land, but I thought he was going for a comparison to how shitty black people are treated.

I think there is also a fine-line especially with white-dudes and Karen/Karen-Adjacent stuff. There are a whole lot of shitty white men who have taken Karen stuff to be open-season on white women without actually giving a shit about intersectionality or the issues of white women aligning with their race when it comes to social justice issues. They just want to use it as an excuse to punch down at women. I don't this Burr did that, but there were a few moments of it that kind of felt like they could have just been recycled sexist tropes from the aughts.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,137
Not really anything to contest. You're on point and you deserve July, and a lot more after that. I do still think you're giving more of a nuanced thought to it (which is a credible translation even if I don't think Burr took it as far) than the guy that refers to trans women as dickless dudes.
If Burr still today has issues with transpeople, then he can fuck right off. I'm not giving quarter to that here. However, while I am explaining myself in detail here because I don't want to step on toes or downplay anyone's feelings, I don't think my take is really all nuanced. My visceral, reflexive reactions to watching that part in real time were roughly something like this:

"Lol, how the fuck you don't know what Pride Month is?.... What did he just say?.... Oh fuck..... Wait..... Yeah, he's right, our month sucks. Moving Black History Month to July so I get 61 days? That actually isn't a bad idea."

That was it. No more or less, and true, I don't think he thought more beyond that either. But just like he's said misogynistic shit about women before, and yet he's right about Karens within the context of this set, I can apply the same extension and say that, ultimately, the point of his joke was to say black people the same kind of celebration as Pride during the summer. And I'm not about to shit on him for saying that.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Is Bill Burr perfect or even fantastic? Fuck no.

Does that mean his message here is wrong? Also fuck no.

There is no perfect messenger, there is no Jesus IRL who is flawless and did everything right at every moment to make their word the message of God that is the only message that can be (or will be) listened to.
While this is true, when we are talking about figures who have repeatedly punched down, talked shit about, and otherwise harmed marginalized communities then don't expect people affected by that to welcome them with open arms every time they happen to make a good point or be right for once.

I mean this is a lot like Chapelle for me. Chapelle is and always has been spot on when it comes to racial issues in this country, he's usually right and I'll always give him credit for that. But after the shit he said about childhood sexual abuse victims I don't fuck with him and will never fuck with him again, dude is dead to me unless he apologizes for that shit. I'm sure many trans people feel the same way about all the transphobic bullshit he has engaged in. Burr has done similar things and thus some people will never fuck with Burr again either, even if he is right sometimes (and he is 100% right on this).

There is no perfect messenger but sometimes people burn bridges and have no intention of trying to mend them.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,410
In Bill's case, the follow-up to that was "Give black people July," so I'm inclined to believe, within the context of this joke, that the point was indeed a more charitable reading: that both groups deserve long summer months to party.



Honestly there's no reason to bring up Pride if the entire thing was just hey Black History Month shouldn't be deadass in winter and the shortest month, isn't that ridiculous move it to July.

Pride exists to suggest an extra level of ridiculousness because LGBT people, with their tank tops and zero percent body fat, who don't even need an entire month got June!




Pride is white as fuck, despite the fact that Stonewall was spearheaded by black LGBT women. LGBT acceptance is white as fuck, because that's mostly who I see on TV as representation. A lot of LGBT culture is painfully cribbed from black culture, specifically the presumed mannerisms of black women. There is an unspoken of leg-up to making inroads with LGBT acceptance, and that is that white people can be LGBT which inevitably has forced white conservative fuckwads to confront their bigotry when one of their family members reveals their truth, which is not an advantage black people have. White people don't like us, they don't deal with us, they don't want to know about us. If only black and brown people could be LGBT, I guaran-fucking-tee you Obergefell wouldn't have even be a thing on the table. I mean

Agreed but Burr was not saying any of this.
And I'm gonna be honest here. If he had used Black History Month to contrast against the lack of a visible and sincerely-celebrated Native Pride/Awareness Month, I as a black person wouldn't have balked, nor would I have thought "Damn, he thinks we don't even get to have BHM." I know it's not kosher to rank atrocities and oppression for a couple of reasons. A.) It can easily foster division, and B.) Once you're past the line of bigotry, it doesn't really matter how far you go into that territory. Bigotry is bigotry, and the fight is to stamp that shit out........ But I'm not about to sit here and think I have it worse than Native Americans, in terms of visibility, access to opportunity and social and civil services, cultural relevance, the ease of our fights. I'm just fucking not.

I mean you should, Burr really isn't someone who ought to be playing Oppression Olympics
You can argue for things without diminishing another minority group.

If he had questioned do Black people really need a whole month in contrast to Indigenous people, I'd be saying exactly what I'm saying now

The reality is there wasn't a reason to invoke Pride. His observations about Black History Month being in February doesn't require Pride. He uses Pride because he thinks it is trivial and believes it being in June enhances his observations about Black History Month... but Pride could be in November and his point about Black History Month would be identical. Talking about Pride only works in the context here if he thinks it's something far less important

His punchline about 61 days, is more simply just Pro Black Folk not a Pro LGBT one. He has no credibility with LGBT issues.

Legitimately he hurt his own argument significantly by invoking Pridd because it distracts from hos argument about Black History Month and pisses off enough people that the headlines change.

Legit he got more blow back in headlines for his Pride comments than his white women comments.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,137
Honestly there's no reason to bring up Pride if the entire thing was just hey Black History Month shouldn't be deadass in winter and the shortest month, isn't that ridiculous move it to July.
The reason to invoke Pride was for the very final punchline: "And black LGBT people get 61 days in a row." You need some sort of set-up to both acknowledge the intersectionality of black LGBT people and make that part land better, otherwise it'd be relatively throwaway, even in a whole set that was ultimately about how bad black people have it. The set-up was him being accidentally caught in a Pride Parade and asking and learning about it, which then leads into the turn in the joke: he sets you up to believe that he thinks that Pride shouldn't exist, to instead ending on Black History Month should be moved right after it. The bridge is him recognizing the disparity between the two months and saying how unfair it is that black people get the shittiest month of the year for having suffered more than LGBT people have. Like, to me, it's very clear how he structured the joke and what its ultimate intent was, and this is regardless of whether or not he is at current a homophobe or transphobe. So like, at this point, I think we're just at a fundamental disagreement in base assumptions here. And again, I don't blame you for feeling that way. I just don't think my reading is unreasonably charitable and thus wrong.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,666
If Burr still today has issues with transpeople, then he can fuck right off. I'm not giving quarter to that here. However, while I am explaining myself in detail here because I don't want to step on toes or downplay anyone's feelings, I don't think my take is really all nuanced. My visceral, reflexive reactions to watching that part in real time were roughly something like this:

"Lol, how the fuck you don't know what Pride Month is?.... What did he just say?.... Oh fuck..... Wait..... Yeah, he's right, our month sucks. Moving Black History Month to July so I get 61 days? That actually isn't a bad idea."

That was it. No more or less, and true, I don't think he thought more beyond that either. But just like he's said misogynistic shit about women before, and yet he's right about Karens within the context of this set, I can apply the same extension and say that, ultimately, the point of his joke was to say black people the same kind of celebration as Pride during the summer. And I'm not about to shit on him for saying that.
The message you've taken from it is accurate and warranted. I think he's on point with his criticisms of white women and I think having a Black History Month that facilitates a longer and easier to celebrate period is what should be afforded. The only place I differ is in not, personally, seeing a need to give him the benefit of the doubt that his throwing in of Pride was as thought out as you're able to articulate.

He's not long since used his platform to denigrate trans women and give more oxygen to a fire that trans athletes have had to fight against at every turn. To me, he has no business invoking Pride in any way that can be taken as flippant. You mention feeling an imposter syndrome and you needn't, if you are willing to extend that faith to him in this then that's valid as your read of it. I just dislike it (his use of it) but admittedly it could be because having comedians that have actively espoused transphobic rhetoric and mocked us be consistently excused for it is commonplace here and elsewhere. So I'm aware that emotions there can play into my reading, but that's why I don't feel perhaps as charitable as others in giving the pass.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,410
The reason to invoke Pride was for the very final punchline: "And black LGBT people get 61 days in a row." You need some sort of set-up to both acknowledge the intersectionality of black LGBT people and make that part land better, otherwise it'd be relatively throwaway, even in a whole set that was ultimately about how bad black people have it. The set-up was him being accidentally caught in a Pride Parade and asking and learning about it, which then leads into the turn in the joke: he sets you up to believe that he thinks that Pride shouldn't exist, to instead ending on Black History Month should be moved right after it. The bridge is him recognizing the disparity between the two months and saying how unfair it is that black people get the shittiest month of the year for having suffered more than LGBT people have. Like, to me, it's very clear how he structured the joke and what its ultimate intent was, and this is regardless of whether or not he is at current a homophobe or transphobe. So like, at this point, I think we're just at a fundamental disagreement in base assumptions here. And again, I don't blame you for feeling that way. I just don't think my reading is unreasonably charitable and thus wrong.
Ok if that punchline is what draws you in, he still could have fundamentally delivered that punchline without suggesting LGBT people don't even need an entire month.