AOC: At this point, the bigger national scandal isn’t the president’s lawbreaking behavior - it's the Democratic Party’s refusal to impeach him for it

[Seeya]

People standing around with their phones out watching a bully pummel some kid are gross, but the bully doing the pummeling is much, much worse.

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Which is the more terrifying or damaging concept:

A bully pummelling a kid

A bully pummelling skid while the people in charge watch, record, and then lie about how they DID try to stop the bully and those like him

One is an unfortunate reality, the other indicates an utterly broken society where the safeguards and values are actually an illusion and the victims have no hope

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

Which is the more terrifying or damaging concept:

A bully pummelling a kid

A bully pummelling skid while the people in charge watch, record, and then lie about how they DID try to stop the bully and those like him

One is an unfortunate reality, the other indicates an utterly broken society where the safeguards and values are actually an illusion and the victims have no hope

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This metaphor is too black and white in describing what's going on. Things are dire, yes, which is what many of us have been trying to tell you but nobody wants to hear it. Where this derails from reality is that there are things which could help but they have nothing to do with defanging the Democrats and alienating them further from the people they're fighting for, the Democrats need to be at their peak strength and this requires understanding and acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses within the system itself. This isn't a therapy session, this is politics - where people will live or die by who we elect and how many we get in those seats.

The time for illusions is long over, this is about taking back power and overcoming the system and opponents which make the Democrats look tiny in comparison. Symbolism won't help protect anyone in the US, capturing the government and creating changes with ambitions outside modern history will. That's what's going to required of us. We need those 2/3rd majority votes in congress at the bare minimum, we need a supreme court on our side, presidents and voters who will keep doing that for generations because that's how much the GOP has corroded the system.

Making something less terrifying is to understand it, know its weaknesses, preparing accordingly and fighting back with strategies that are based in the real world. They can be beaten and fought off, this becomes harder to do when our own side think we're just as bad as they are and are trying to cripple us as much as possible before the GOP get their licks in.

Civics isn't simply about knowledge, it's about learning how to fight the system from the inside. Which is what AOC's doing as we speak.

Nobody else in this thread is offering any alternative to the Democrats so they're it. They're not perfect, some are corrupt and incompetent but they are the best ally you have against the GOP and they do have a record of fighting for this country, as well as creating progress - which is constantly in motion since the GOP are continuously undermining, sabotaging and destroying the steps they accomplish. Because politics don't end, it's something which existed before we were born and will outlive all of us. They are who you need to have your back, not a non existent competition who is never arriving.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

Of course the bully is worse, but conservatives have no fucking moral compass so we shouldn't rely on them to stop or berate the bully.

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How is not fighting conservatives going to help take back the country? Don't give in, and turn into their indirect allies. Fight with us, not against us. If shaming won't work, find something else which will.

 

[Culex]

Impeachment isn't going to remove Trump, not sure what the end goal is here.

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You're right. Send me all the money in your accounts and sell me your house since you don't really need it. I mean , after all we all will die eventually, so what is the point ? Here, I'll help tie the noose on your neck and give you a push.

 

[Spinluck]

Just as I thought, you have nothing. I wasn't projecting anything and it certainly wasn't me making these claims.

It's ok to criticise Dems but do it in good faith. It's irresponsible to do this when we have elections coming up.

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You have no shortage of people to argue with and tell them they are asking for much. I simply said no because I've already posted my thoughts.

Not once did I say Dems were in the bed with Republicans.

 

[tommy7154]

It's crazy to me that this even needs to be said, but almost nobody at this point thinks there's a chance in hell Trump will actually be impeached or removed from office. That is not the point of calling for/moving forward with impeachment proceedings in this case.

The point would be to show that there is still order and a rule of law in this country, and that nobody, including the President of The United States, is above it. If he is accused and found not guilty of any misdoings, then so be it. At least at that point Pelosi, and all democrats could say they did what they could, and did what was right.

And what is better? An extremely thin chance that he could possibly be impeached, or literally no chance at all? Public sentiment can change. It has little to no chance to do that though unless we have a leader who will stand up to Trump and do what history will clearly show is right.

That Pelosi, The Speaker of the fucking House, doesn't already see this, is appalling.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

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The GOP will never vote for it though. LIke what kind of logic is that.

 

[Deleted member 22490]

Thing is elections are the way people keep the government in check. Right now, the only thing the house can do is investigate. Prosecuting would have no effect because the senate is the judge and can end the trial whenever it sees fit(If you want info to come to light via the trial, that can be squashed by the senate almost immediately after the articles are filed.).

people keep talking on and on about congress's duty, but we are in the state we're in not because of congress failing it's duty but because people failed in their civic duty to elect a balanced government. In fact, the country gave 3 branches of government and both houses to the same party. Even with 2018, the wave was mostly on the backs of people wanting to keep trump from dismantling the ACA more than getting him out of office. If that movement was so big, we would have won more of the senate seats up for grabs in areas that had high switches in the house.

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I was responding to the ridiculous notion that we can't criticize or even dissent the democrats because elections are coming up, not that election aren't important. People saying that democrats shouldn't be criticized because elections are coming up are only doing so to shut up dissent.

 

[Sephzilla]

AOC is 1000% right.

Not impeaching Trump because of optics or because it won't survive The Senate (thus forcing the GOP to put their names behind Trump in support) sets an incredibly dangerous precedent.

 

[UnpopularBlargh]

Jon Favreau (frm Obama speech writer and Crooked Media founder) agrees with AOC:

This is absolutely insane. We have lifelong conservatives writing pieces about how Trump should be impeached and @SpeakerPelosi's advisers are still telling reporters they refuse to hold the President accountable. This is pathetic. This is not what we worked so hard for in 2018.

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[Malleymal]

Stop letting trump go about his business unchecked. That is worse than impeachment. Don't worry about those house seats in red districts because you are depressing the democrats in that area, and will lose one way of the other.

Whistleblowers can see this inaction and feel that there is no point in coming forward if it doesn't matter at all. It's a horrible precedence

 

[Davilmar]

I shudder at a post-Trump world where a future Republican is either more subtle or blantant with their illegality, on a scale that would make Trump look like an amateur. All after Democrats more or less shrugged at treating this entire saga seriously.

 

[Kernel]

Someone once said:

"the best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves".

At this point I think there's some truth to this.

 

[Bronx-Man]

"Vote blue no matter who!!"

 

[Pooh]

Nancy: "I don't care how many laws he breaks. Donald is King until 2020, all we can do is elect a new king."
Donald: "I'm breaking laws to ensure the 2020 election is super fucked up so I can win again."
Nancy: "Sorry folks, nothing I can do. Please donate!"

 

[fick]

Next Dem president is gonna be impeached for their State Dinner menu

 

[Bio]

This isn't a therapy session, this is politics - where people will live or die by who we elect and how many we get in those seats.

The time for illusions is long over

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You talk about the time for illusion being over, but you're still apparently under the illusion that democrats are going to be our saviors, that lives will be saved if only we elect more of them. They're not, and they won't. Too many democrats are too comfortable with the status quo, too comfortable with the arrangements they've worked out for themselves as power players in this society, and they're not going to give that up to do the right thing.

The idea that they're not doing the right thing because they have to SAVE LIVES is asinine. They're not doing the right thing because they're afraid of the potential personal consequences that will accrue to them personally. They're afraid of losing what they have, not concerned with doing the most good. If you don't get that, you're the one operating under illusions.

 

[Surfinn]

AOC is 1000% right.

Not impeaching Trump because of optics or because it won't survive The Senate (thus forcing the GOP to put their names behind Trump in support) sets an incredibly dangerous precedent.

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It's astounding to me that people cannot recognize her basic point.. that doing nothing (aside from excessive finger wagging and roundabout solutions that aren't impeachment) in the face of unprecedented corruption is far worse than the corruption itself. Or, a system failing its country because of optics is indeed a far greater scandal than corrupt asshole politicians. There will always been corrupt asshole politicians. That's why fucking checks and balances exist.

Doing your job and allowing the GOP to go down with the ship is the bare minimum of what dems should be pushing for. Pelosi has done nothing but drag her feet on impeachment, making it look like she's doing her job by choosing every other option.

She does not want impeachment and never did. She knows republicans would never support it, and that's enough for her.

Instead, it's AOC who is the problem. Yep, folks in this thread have cracked the code.. she's a republican plant seeking attention.

 

[Deleted member 12224]

Nevermind, the kid isn't worth the acknowledgement and validation

 

[fick]

BTW, everyone who laughed at the people who said both parties were the same before last election, read through this thread. This is what it looks like

 

[Josh378]

Jon Favreau (frm Obama speech writer and Crooked Media founder) agrees with AOC:

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And this is why people are going to start sitting at home when it's time to vote in 2020. When you don't even have trust in your democracy or the Democratic Party.

Dark days are coming people...

 

[Jeremy]

I still think the Democratic leadership simply wants to delay impeachment until next year, to impact the election cycle in the way they feel will cause the most harm to the GOP.

I also think that not sending a message immediately about such blatant corruption is harmful in itself and absolutely reeks of corruption in its own way (which isn't to imply equivalency in any way).

 

[Book One]

Hard to figure Pelosi's thinking here. I'm guessing she has a genuine fear of/belief that the attempt would be a Bill Clinton type situation?

I Know the prevailing thought was Clinton's impeachment hurt republicans in the short term, though that may be an oversimplification.

 

[Dekim]

We can't criticize Democrats because elections are coming up is one of the laziest attempts at stifling criticism I've seen yet. Elections happen every two years in this country; special elections happen all the time. By this logic it is NEVER a "good time" to criticize Democrats, which is probably the true goal for people pushing this reasoning.

 

[Flex1212]

I agree with her. This shit is bonkers. Impeach this fuck already.

 

[LakeEarth]

And this is why people are going to start sitting at home when it's time to vote in 2020. When you don't even have trust in your democracy or the Democratic Party.

Dark days are coming people...

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Yeah, hard to get behind them when they won't even TRY to put a stop to this shit.

 

[jviggy43]

There are oceans between how these groups are treated by Democrats and Republicans. That doesn't that Democrats can't be racist, disappointing, etc. That doesn't mean that Democrats haven't been complicit in legislation that harms minorities.

But it's really not the same. Especially not in 2019. Wake me up when Democrats push for the religious "liberty" to refuse service to gay people.

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How about willingly aiding concentration camps of immigrants?

Which is the more terrifying or damaging concept:

A bully pummelling a kid

A bully pummelling skid while the people in charge watch, record, and then lie about how they DID try to stop the bully and those like him

One is an unfortunate reality, the other indicates an utterly broken society where the safeguards and values are actually an illusion and the victims have no hope

Click to shrink...

Bingo

We can't criticize Democrats because elections are coming up is one of the laziest attempts at stifling criticism I've seen yet. Elections happen every two years in this country; special elections happen all the time. By this logic it is NEVER a "good time" to criticize Democrats, which is probably the true goal for people pushing this reasoning.

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Citations needed has an awesome podcast on why this logical fallacy is exactly that. It essentially amount to stans saying to never criticize the democratic party because there are always elections coming up.

 

[Josh378]

I still think the Democratic leadership simply wants to delay impeachment until next year, to impact the election cycle in the way they feel will cause the most harm to the GOP.

I also think that not sending a message immediately about such blatant corruption is harmful in itself and absolutely reeks of corruption in its own way (which isn't to imply equivalency in any way).

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Here's the thing about that, there needs to be a hard investigation from the Democrats end. Need to blatantly show a path leading to impeachment in 2020.

I can understand if you're showing hard evidence to the people before putting out an impeachment request. But right now it looks like the Democrats are twiddling your thumbs and hoping for the best at voting time 2020. That leads to non belief in your own party to get anything done.

Lord knows if the Democrats best defense against Trump is just throwing Biden out there in 2020, we are fucked.

 

[Jeremy]

Here's the thing about that, there needs to be a hard investigation from the Democrats end. Need to blatantly show a path leading to impeachment in 2020.

I can understand if you're showing hard evidence to the people before putting out an impeachment request. But right now it looks like the Democrats are twiddling your thumbs and hoping for the best at voting 2020. That leads to non belief in your own party to get anything done.

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They have two crucial hearings set over the next week and a number of important pending court cases.

They are trying to run the clock to as close to next year as possible, I think, but they are not "doing nothing."

I think, on a certain level, this deliberate and non-alarmist approach has two other benefits:
- Helps to convince hypothetical people that impeachment might alienate that they were reluctant to do it, but had to eventually.
- Shows the courts that they've tried to follow procedure and have not been acting in a blindly political manner.

I'm not trying to argue that this is a good approach (I personally think we're at a crisis point... well past the point where impeachment made sense politically and legally and morally), but I am trying to explain why it might make sense to wait or proceed at the current pace from someone like Pelosi's perspective.

The Ukraine tapes, if released, will probably be much more of a smoking gun than anything involved in the Russia investigation, short of Trump's taxes, so maybe there's also wisdom in waiting until people can hear those.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

You talk about the time for illusion being over, but you're still apparently under the illusion that democrats are going to be our saviors, that lives will be saved if only we elect more of them. They're not, and they won't. Too many democrats are too comfortable with the status quo, too comfortable with the arrangements they've worked out for themselves as power players in this society, and they're not going to give that up to do the right thing.

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Your narrative that the Democrats are a bigger problem to erase then Republicans is a sticking point which needs to be curtailed. The fact you're unwilling to give the Democrats any credit for any progress in government isn't being objective in the slightest. I never said they weren't flawed, but your implied mysterious saviour supposedly are. Your giving half an argument here, what's your alternative to the Democrats? How would they do any better once elected?

The idea that they're not doing the right thing because they have to SAVE LIVES is asinine. They're not doing the right thing because they're afraid of the potential personal consequences that will accrue to them personally. They're afraid of losing what they have, not concerned with doing the most good.

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Your omitting how much progress has been made by Democrats and how tough doing that is in exchange for what? Who is this mysterious third party we should bet our lives on who will replace the Democrats with? A common thought in this thread, and when pressed on specifics all I get is shrug and who knows. Which explains why the Democrats are in position to help, where imaginary folk heroes are not since Democrats exist in this world.

This topic has a truckload of nuance and political implications within the system but this is overlooked in your thoughts. As though impeachment had nothing to do with the government.

This is all emotional appeal, with no substance underneath. Which is why your claim the Democrats do nothing is projection.

If you have a solution to getting those interests in government do what you're saying speak up, because that's been missing from your reply.

If you don't get that, you're the one operating under illusions.

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Symbolism won't save us, Bio, action will and you've haven't shown any evidence you know how to accomplish this without the Democrats doing the heavy lifting in congress.

We can't criticize Democrats because elections are coming up is one of the laziest attempts at stifling criticism I've seen yet. Elections happen every two years in this country; special elections happen all the time. By this logic it is NEVER a "good time" to criticize Democrats, which is probably the true goal for people pushing this reasoning.

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Completely ignored when I withdrew that criticism since doing so would invalidate this angle of discrediting my opinion. Dissent is not criticism, Dakim, you know this. You don't call to destroy the Democrats and paint it as though you're making a mild complaint while sipping tea.

 

[Laughing Banana]

"Because it's the right and decent thing to do" is a concept that many just don't have it in themselves anymore, it seems.

You chase that pragmatism so hard even in the face of evil, you are becoming a part of that evil itself.

 

[Deleted member 22490]

You chase that pragmatism so hard even in the face of evil, you are becoming a part of that evil itself.

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It's always amazing and scary that people don't realize it. They slowly morph and become part of the system they were trying to fight in the first place.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

"Because it's the right and decent thing to do" is a concept that many just don't have it in themselves anymore, it seems.

You chase that pragmatism so hard even in the face of evil, you are becoming a part of that evil itself.

Click to shrink...

Being right is great, convincing that many people to actually do that is hard as you're noticed. Government is a complicated process, fractured further by voters who want to elect people who want to do the wrong thing. That's why we have to be pragmatist. Of course it's not like the Democrats are doing nothing, impeachment is up and running but I see absolutely no credit being given to them. Why is that?

This does beg the question, which politicians are doing what you want? All I can see is AOC and some of the Justice Democrats except that's going nowhere.

If you want to be solved outside the system why are you holding the Democrats up to anything, they are part the system.

 

[zero_suit]

"Because it's the right and decent thing to do" is a concept that many just don't have it in themselves anymore, it seems.

You chase that pragmatism so hard even in the face of evil, you are becoming a part of that evil itself.

Click to shrink...

Indeed, yet so many cannot grasp this.

 

[Bio]

Your narrative that the Democrats are a bigger problem to erase then Republicans is a sticking point which needs to be curtailed.

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Given that, at no point in my post, did I ever say they were the BIGGER problem, I stopped reading right here. I don't suffer people who put words in my mouth. If you want to have an actual conversation, cool; stop mischaracterizing my argument and I'm sure we'll get along great. Otherwise, find someone else to talk at, please :)

 

[Stinkles]

Given that, at no point in my post, did I ever say they were the BIGGER problem, I stopped reading right here. I don't suffer people who put words in my mouth. If you want to have an actual conversation, cool; stop mischaracterizing my argument and I'm sure we'll get along great. Otherwise, find someone else to talk at, please :)

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You literally - in the post he's responding to, put words in his mouth - specifically that "the democrats are our saviors and the only way to save lives is to elect them" which he, equal to your refutation, also didn't say.

 

[Bio]

You literally - in the post he's responding to, put words in his mouth - specifically that "the democrats are our saviors and the only way to save lives is to elect them" which he, equal to your refutation, also didn't say.

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Sorry but no, he said it

This isn't a therapy session, this is politics - where people will live or die by who we elect and how many we get in those seats.

Click to shrink...

 

[Stinkles]

Sorry but no, he said it

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That's an accurate statement.

People will live or die based on who you elect.

Where does he say only electing democrats will save lives and where does he use the expression "savior?" Remember you started the conversation here about people putting specific words in your mouth. It's semantics but that's precisely your argument.

His paraphrasing of your argument is not even remotely different from yours of his.

 

[Bio]

That's an accurate statement.

People will live or die based on who you elect.

Where does he say only electing democrats will save lives and where does he use the expression "savior?" Remember you started the conversation here about people putting specific words in your mouth. It's semantics but that's precisely your argument.

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I'm sorry but there is a distinct difference between semantics, and paraphrasing what people say, and claiming they said something they literally did not say. He said people will live or die based on how many democrats we elect, and I don't see how you're rationally going to have a problem with me paraphrasing that as democrats being our saviors.

At no point did I say anything that could have even been remotely interpreted as "democrats are the bigger problem". My point was that they're not going to save lives if we elect them, because most democrats give absolutely zero fucks about anything other than the status quo.

You're certainly free to disagree with my characterization of democrats if you think it is inaccurate or unfair, but you're being disingenuous as hell trying to conflate me paraphrasing something he actually said versus him flat out putting words in my mouth.

 

[Stinkles]

I'm sorry but there is a distinct difference between semantics, and paraphrasing what people say, and claiming they said something they literally did not say. He said people will live or die based on how many democrats we elect, and I don't see how you're rationally going to have a problem with me paraphrasing that as democrats being our saviors.

At no point did I say anything that could have even been remotely interpreted as "democrats are the bigger problem". My point was that they're not going to save lives if we elect them, because most democrats give absolutely zero fucks about anything other than the status quo.

You're certainly free to disagree with my characterization of democrats if you think it is inaccurate or unfair, but you're being disingenuous as hell trying to conflate me paraphrasing something he actually said versus him flat out putting words in my mouth.

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I mean your posts and phrasing and quoting are there for people to see. If I'm wrong I expect a cunning linguist to throw me beneath a charabanc of my own concoction -- I'm not characterizing either of your opinions -- which both hold merit, But you're accusing him of something you're doing yourself.

 

[Bio]

you're accusing him of something you're doing yourself.

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I'm not, and I'm not wasting any more time on this. If you can't see the difference, I don't think there's anything I can do for you. Have a good night.

 

[Stinkles]

I'm not, and I'm not wasting any more time on this. If you can't see the difference, I don't think there's anything I can do for you. Have a good night.

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Yup definitely me and not your verbatim posts. I accept your victory and retreat to my fail-lair.