Yup, it's the action that counts.
By overthinking it to this extent we will just fall victim to inaction which is in itself, a choice.
A choice, that won't provide the possibility of the change we claim to want in the first place.
AOC: At this point, the bigger national scandal isn’t the president’s lawbreaking behavior - it's the Democratic Party’s refusal to impeach him for it
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Yup, it's the action that counts.
By overthinking it to this extent we will just fall victim to inaction which is in itself, a choice.
A choice, that won't provide the possibility of the change we claim to want in the first place.
it's truly amazing that there's still anyone who thinks Pelosi is playing some eleven-dimensional chess game here. she couldn't make it any clearer at this point that she will not support impeachment, period
Yup. It's like a good cop/bad cop routine. Pelosi loves that Trump is president. It keeps PoC in check and voting for centrists. Just look at Biden's numbers.
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Pelosi, Schumer, Biden etc.... are relics of an age that died in November 2016 and have no place in the modern era. I can't wait for them to be gone and for Dems like Cortez to take their place.
They will eventually be gone but unfortunately their brainworms will find new hosts in the 30-something-year-old losers who follow them.
Correct. And it's very unfortunate that people keep applauding AOC for stuff like this.
I'm not sure what votes moderate R's have left to lose by voting against impeachment.
Any GOP voter inclined to be motivated by that is likely to have abandoned ship already.
I agree.
My previous statement was mostly a reaction to people complaining about how the moderate wing was always telling them to "fall in line" when it came to voting Dems. I wanted to put things in perspective and wanted to note that if a guy like Bernie Sanders were to win the primaries, those same people would probably expect the same falling-in-line process of the centrists and moderates. Which would be a reasonable expectation, given the stakes and the fact that whoever ends up challenging Trump will need both moderates and leftists in order to win. It comes with the territory of being a big-tent party. I can only hope that IF Sanders were to snatch the nomination, folks would utilize your arguments in order to try and persuade the wing that didn't come out on top and not try to convince them by calling them idiots and hypocrits as some people here suggested.
The House leader will support what their caucus supports. (Or else.) The House is parliamentarian in that way.
This is what status-quo'ers always ignore. They just want to ride white moderates to an electoral victory with a promise of "we'll fix it all when we're in power, pinkie swear!". We absolutely can't rock the boat, even now, because apparently this same group of voters we have to rely on are fucking sociopaths and are complicit in the absolute trashing of our democracy. Reminder we have concentration camps at the border and madam speaker, in deference to this same group, compares the situation of stopping them/funding them to making goddamn food. Like I said, pure fucking sociopaths. And the exact message we don't want being referenced in the future to justify further harm.
I'm old enough to remember 2006-2016 with the same promises made. And if we fail to bring impeachment forward and shine a light on the criminality of the GOP as an entity, then we're doomed to even greater failure, even if we win big in 2020. We're dead in the water. Not even "policy wonk" Elizabeth Warren can fix all of the holes in our system before the next GOP atrocity gets propped up and starts whispering sweet deplorable things to a still racist and still ignorant country that will be crumbling under climate change, recessions, and healthcare crises.
And we literally don't have the time for all of this BS. Our crib is on fire.
Okay, but that's basically the point. No one is left to abandon them if they vote against impeachment. They are already gone.
Just to be clear.
Trump is telling Dems to pound it sideways.
I think one of the biggest issues here is that too many people, even many Democrats, think Trump is some one-off. That he's an aberrant and that someone like him can't really happen again in the future or at least any time soon. Let's just getting rid of Trump and everything else will fall in its place!!! Going the impeachment route is too risky and just waiting until we vote him out of office in 2020 is the smart play!! That is dangerous and grossly naive thinking. To those that Trump is some weird aberration: Have you seen the current Republican base? Do you really think they won't be swayed by Trump 2.0 in 2024 or 2028 or however long it takes for another Trump to appear? Do you think future GOP candidates won't use the Trump playbook again? And do you think they will be as stupid as Trump is when it comes to illegal acts?
That's a lot to gamble the future of our republic on.
That's a lot to gamble the future of our republic on.
.
Pelosi will go for impeachment eventually...lol.
I cant say i care much at all about impeachment, but holding onto the hope that the weakness of the democratic leadership is just a fools errand
Pelosi will go for impeachment eventually...lol.
I cant say i care much at all about impeachment, but holding onto the hope that the weakness of the democratic leadership is just a fools errand
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you think refusing to hold the president to any standard when he breaks the law and hoping he "self-impeaches" is the safe option, while holding him accountable is gambling the future of our republic?
That's a lot words used, but not the one that matters. House investigations have done nothing so far except demonstrate that cooperation is optional.
Fortunately Warren is looking poised to become the leader of the party.
Exactly. She is complicit!
Amen! Say it out loud for the entire class!
Pelosi will have no choice but to accelerate the impeachment investigation - probably somewhere during the last few months of his third term. It's a clear plan and it's working.
As ever the Resetera liberal chicken Littles don't have the patience to wait just nine short years and are demanding unrealistic action now because they don't understand strategy.
Queen Takes
As ever the Resetera liberal chicken Littles don't have the patience to wait just nine short years and are demanding unrealistic action now because they don't understand strategy.
Queen Takes
her time
Why are people ITT turning the discussion to one about who is responsible for Trump's actions? AOC and everyone agree that Trump himself and the republicans are responsible for that. But Trump behaving illegally and unethically for the umpteenth time is less of a scandal than the opposition party winning the power to hold him accountable and doing... nothing.
Not if Biden has anything to say about that. But whether its her or bernie(they should just combine into a joint ticket already whether he or she wins the nomination) however, that doesnt really do anything to the leadership of the congress who will resist progressive messages regardless
If warren were to hypothetically win the nomination and then the general, people would still need to change the structure of congress, and i hope she would have the mindset to want to actually go that far and put pressure on winning congressional support for progressives rather than coloring within the lines
I believe you. I never believed you didn't.
You should complain. If you believe Democrats should impeach, hold their feet to the fire.
I'm just pointing out that rhetoric that portrays Democrats and Republicans as the same is dangerous and contributes to the idea that voting is useless. My post wasn't directed at you alone.
If she becomes the nominee as is looking increasingly likely, I'm guessing she'll have some pull over Pelosi.
We're about to reach a whole new level of reaching a whole new level.. The beginning of commencing is about to prepare to be initiated.
I probably misspoke so you took my post wrongly.
Her meeting with party insiders and people like the clinton faction concerns me, in addition to her deference to the military industrial complex and having no foreign policy makes her my number 2 instead of 1.
i am hoping that, if she actually comes out on top over Bernie for "face of progressive in democratic party", and beats Biden and then Trump on top of that, she actually puts pressure on the congress and Pelosi rather than the other way around, having them dictate how she acts in a potential Presidency. There's one thing thats more powerful than the Presidency and that is the system as it currently exists.
Its not that i dont think she would potentially have power as the bully pulpit to enact important changes regarding how things are done, but whether her will is there to actually do that on her own with pressure from the neoliberal elements to be a moderate.
Obama governed on change but essentially was a moderate centrist who didnt really change anything. Warren who has been flirting with moderate values while having some good domestic policy, i'm hoping they dont try to blunt her further when she must actually be stronger than she is currently to make a difference.
Yeah Warren is the smartest and best researched of the candidates, which means when she's in the trenches attempting to pass real policy, it will get modified and curtailed to get votes. That's not cowardice, that's the only way lasting change happens.
I mean, him discussing it isn't an impeachable offense. It's if there is some sort of implicit or explicit exchange involved for it.
Her meeting with party insiders actually means that she's good at coalition building.
She's really not a moderate nor is she flirting with "moderate values" at all. Really weird characterization!
First thing, he didn't just "discuss" it. It apparently was that much of a big threat to national security that it was issued an "urgent concern" after 2 weeks of investigating the whistleblower's complaints.
Furthermore, the timeline. Or basically how Trump sent his personal lawyer to dig up dirt on the very topic of Biden/son when it was already firmly closed by the Ukrainian justice system.
Let's be smarter this go-around compared to 2016 and think a bit harder about the events happening around us, because our very future and the future of this democracy depends on it.. Or, most importantly, don't take Trump's words for anything. For one, they don't matter. What matters is that congress is being denied what they are owed by convention and literal law. And that's not the start. The other, is how the president is using his personal lawyer to work on a foreign country to dig up or manufacture dirt on a political opponent. And then of course the specious timing of withdrawn congressional-approved aid and the mysterious unlifting of said aid the very minute it was known that the whistleblower was made public.
Or we can just take Trump's words for it and their conversation, which will never be made known to us, was simply shooting the shit. Honest work. Doesn't look like anything to me.
Biden is a main front runner for the party but I guess he's such a liberal firebrand that it needs to be spelled out that he's basically a republican. Besides that, most if not all of the candidates are in Israel's pocket.
fuck all the way off with your "when did I imply" bs too
This is a straw man about nobody in this thread. It is possible to like and support AOC on some things and disagree on others. It's not the end of the world like you're painting it as, either. Or do you think leftist politicians should be agreed with about anything? Because even ordinary leftist would be able to live by those standards of purity. Including AOC and other Leftist Democrats.
And what I'm saying is that the White House is coordinating with the DOJ to force the acting DNI to withhold a privileged complaint from reaching Congress, while also obstructing the ICIG from Congress. That itself is impeachable +, no investigation as it's already public. We know it because we watched it real-time.
What we're witnessing at just a public information level is a crime spree, but done in public. There's investigating (and trust me that the investigating will be going on past the lifetimes of some of the people involved), and then there's actual enforcing the law or trying to enforce the law when mofos on the street are spraying people with lead in broad daylight and only 6 inches from you.
The very cause of this thread is "Do your damn job". And investigating is but 1 aspect of said job. It's like complaining that people are you giving you shit for doing 1/4 of your job that day. It's the job, as in a discrete point of measurement with its own separate aims and goals and accomplishments, but not THE job.
Because deflecting and pivoting makes them feel like the real grow up politicians they defend. Tire everyone out with pedantry and we never have to actually address the point
I think Biden is a candidate with views I don't like. However, I feel like we sometimes forget how far right the Republicans have gotten. Candace Owens is seen as a prominent speaker for them when it comes to race issues. Candace fucking Owens. Maybe we need to a group watch one day of a republican conference just so we completely remember where they stand on issues.
"Yeah I'm sure that for poor people, LGBT people, minorities and women, Republicans are just the same as democrats", is a statement pointing out that for these groups suffer pretty badly under republican rule, it isn't about me knowing what those entire groups think or feel as a whole. If you want to keep misinterpreting it, that's fine too.
Biden doesn't just have bad views but a poor history. You keep letting republicans set line as they go further right taking the democrats with them.
Those same groups aren't being served well by the democrats either and we can't even point it out without you just pointing to the republicans who democrats kowtow to
There are oceans between how these groups are treated by Democrats and Republicans. That doesn't that Democrats can't be racist, disappointing, etc. That doesn't mean that Democrats haven't been complicit in legislation that harms minorities.
But it's really not the same. Especially not in 2019. Wake me up when Democrats push for the religious "liberty" to refuse service to gay people.
I'd need to look at specifics to give more an opinion. With the other thing you mentioned. I don't really see that happening though, if anything, democrats are taking the republicans left on some issues. And, if he wins, even Biden, who again I don't like or support, based on his current policy positions he'd be the most leftward democratic president ever. This, again, shows they're moving leftward. You can also look at polling data on democratic voters and they're more progressive than they were in previous years.
You can point out bad stuff though. I've never said you can't. We should all advocate for more progressive politicians, and replace moderates with progressives where we can. However, of course I'm going to disagree hard if you imply that the two parties are exactly the same, or that which one you vote for is of no consequence. Again, Candace Fucking Owens!
What made you draw this conclusion?
He is asking a foreign government to violate the civil liberties of two US citizens by way of leveraging the office of the president to interfere and help win him re-election.
Even if he didn't withhold aid to coerce him, it is a clear abuse of power and therefore impeachable.
Keeping in mind he has already been named the unindicted co-conspirator in a felony, committed around ten counts of obstruction, attempted to commit conspiracy, and now this.