Alright, let's settle this — Which is better: Super Mario Bros. 2 or Super Mario Bros. 2

[Sixfortyfive]

Zero improvements, no changes, just more of 1 with unnecessary difficulty changes.

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first game to give you a high bounce from jumping on enemies
first game to give Luigi distinct physics
first game to add the flagpole trick for extra lives
first game to implement the full ending BGM
first game that awards the player a final congratulatory bonus stage for 100% completion
first game to add a real second quest
proto-autoscroll levels show up for the first time here
is at least somewhat visually distinct from its predecessor in their original 8-bit incarnations
bigger levels, more complex levels, occasional branching paths, and no reused levels; probably twice as much content as the first game

Not all of the above are super important, but this game doesn't get the respect it deserves for the series staples that it did bring to the table.

And, most importantly, it utilizes the foundation of its predecessor better than its predecessor did.

 

[Ayirek]

SMB2 US is better. SMB2J - Lost Levels - plays like awful Mario Maker troll levels. They're not well designed, they're not fun, and the game adds nothing significant to the franchise.

SMB2 US - Doki Doki Panic - retains and evolves the Mario formula, adding vertical scrolling and more expressive sprites. It's also FUN, something Lost Levels fell off with. Not to mention DDP added more to the Mario Universe than most other single games ever have: Birdo, Luigi's design (taller and thinner) as well as his higher, though floatier, jump**, shyguys, sniffits.... List goes on.

Lost Levels was the 'real' Mario 2. Doki Doki Panic was the [/i]better[/i] Mario 2.

**Edit

Actually I think Luigi's jumps were higher and floatier in Lost Levels, so nevermind on this point. Still, DDP is better, damnit :P

 

[Deleted member 5127]

USA, I really liked how 2D Mario wasn't afraid to try new things back then with Mario 2 and Yoshi's Island, compared to the NSMB series.

 

[dead souls]

Lost Levels is trash.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Gotta say, I always thought this was a way more contentious topic than it seems to actually be. At the very least, I give credit to Team TLL for doing a much better job arguing for their game. Team USA's arguments seem to simply boil down to "TLL is bad/is too hard/plays like a ROM hack" with very little actual discussion of their game of choice.

 

[The BLJ]

The Lost Levels, by far. The level design is really good, the new mechanics (Poison Mushrooms, spring-jumping off enemies, getting extra lives at the flagpole, backward warp pipes, etc) are really fun, and the differences between Mario and Luigi change the whole game.
SMB2 is nice, but it doesn't come close to TLL honestly. Well I guess it introduced vertical levels, which is a great thing. But it feels more "action-adventurey" than a Mario game should (with HP, puzzles, etc).

 

[ShaggsMagoo]

Doki Doki Panic is a bad game that controls like shit. It is an embarrassment for it to be associated with the Super Mario franchise. The only good things going for it are some cool enemy designs that were brought over to the main franchise.

 

[MrBadger]

Lost Levels feels like a game that was made before the concept of videogame sequels was really established. It assumed that the audience beat the first game and wanted the sequel to continue where it left off, continuing to ramp up the difficulty without many improvements or new ideas. Smb2 USA is easily better

 

[unicornKnight]

Lost Levels is bad and the developers should feel bad.

Getting Super Mario 2 USA instead might be the only time where Japan's very low opinion of overseas gamers actually worked to our benefit.

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This. I'm glad we got that game, it was such a unique experience quite different to Smb 1,3

 

[Epinephrine]

The Japanese SMB2 was just a harder SMB, where as the reskin of Doki Doki Panic felt like something fresh and different.

 

[Mega Man Zero]

Lost Levels is supposed to be hard. It was made with the kind of people who can beat SMB1 in 1 life in mind. It says it right there on the box "For Super Players". I wish the little assholes shitting up Mario Maker with their bad "hard" levels could make levels half as good as Lost Levels' levels. Levels!

 

[Treasure Silvergun]

The irony in the "Lost Levels feels like a romhack" comments is that both games are essentially romhacks.

The difference is that SMB2 improved upon DDP quite significantly in several areas (some designs and animations, one brand-new boss instead of a third iteration of the first boss), gave immortality to what would otherwise be a one-off licensed game that'd quickly be forgotten even in Japan, and made the international Mario universe a lot bigger.

Meanwhile Lost Levels seems to eschew a lot of the level design expertise that SMB still shows to this day. Nintendo wouldn't even do something like LL as DLC today, it's just so deliberately cruel and trollish while their extra levels and DLC for modern Mario games actually espect you to have digested and mastered the game's mechanics. LL is just spiting the player. Good for you if you like that, but it's more spite than it is actual challenge and you know it.

There is a flow, rhythm and elegance to SMB that LL does away with almost completely. That Nintendo chose to not bring the official sequel to the biggest game of its generation in America in 1988 and rather do something completely different with a completely unrelated game, testifies to the actual quality control they were doing to curate their releases in the West. The JP-West changes of the era were often shitty (I guess a lot more NES games would be remembered more fondly if rental didn't make it basically mandatory to ramp up the difficulty), but what Nintendo did with SMB2 is one of the most successful gambles in video game history.

It also helps that USA SMB2 has clever level design and balance while LL is just throwing stuff at the wall and keeping whatever sticks... and whatever doesn't as well.

 

[Giga Man]

Super Mario Advance

 

[Thuddert]

SMB2 is the goat.

 

[tim1138]

Super Mario Bros 2 USA easily. I'm still mad it's not a style in Mario Maker 1 or (seemingly) 2.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Super Mario Bros. 2 USA is better than 3.

 

[Deleted member 29599]

SMB2 USA is a quirky, fun platformer with memorable levels and enemies, cool playing styles for each of the 4 characters and was a breath of fresh air to play. Also this is the game that gave us motherfucking Birdo who has been cruelly neglected as of late (if Birdo is not in Mario Kart 9 i will riot). As a kid my mum always told me "if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all" which is something i have never actually adhered to in my life but i'm gonna apply it to my feelings regarding The Lost Levels.

Super Mario Bros. 2 USA is better than 3.

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Now now, let's not get carried away.

 

[Dyle]

This isn't even a question, Lost Levels is the worst Mario game ever made by a substantial margin. The level design is not just hard but unfair and the wind mechanic is very badly implemented

 

[ThorHammerstein]

JP SMB2 is torture, just plain unfun.
Doki Doki Panic is okay and needs some refinement, but still is fun.
Super Mario Bros 2 (USA) is Doki refined into a really fun game, very replayable game.

 

[Willin]

Super Mario Bros 2 (US) inflicted the great sin that was Birdo upon the world.

 

[Cian]

I think Lost Levels is a better designed game than some people here are saying, it's definitely an overly challenging game but that doesn't necessarily mean the level design is "bad", just overly difficult in parts. And if you're looking for a difficult version of Mario 1, it's pretty great and extensive in that regard!

Super Mario USA is a really special game though. It established so much about the personality and world of Super Mario and feels so much more lively than the original two Marios. It's a far more ambitious game for the NES, and there's a lot more to appreciate about it on an aesthetic and gameplay level than the Lost Levels. Lost Levels is an experts version of Super Mario Bros 1, while Super Mario USA presents a version of Mario that has an added focus on exploration, diverging gameplay styles through character choice, more than one kind of boss fight, and levels that scroll vertically rather than horizontally. It's a more expansive sequel that does more for Mario than Lost Levels ever did.

And the new characters are so great. Shy Guys? Great. Bob-ombs? Classic. Birdo? Absolute icon. Luigi, Peach and Toad all getting more defined personalities through their playstyles? Fantastic.

 

[Cian]

Super Mario Bros 2 (US) inflicted the great sin that was Birdo upon the world.

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You've got a lot of nerve.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Meanwhile Lost Levels seems to eschew a lot of the level design expertise that SMB still shows to this day.

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The maze castles in LL have visual tells in (almost?) every loop point that clue the player in to the exact parts of the stages where you can mess up the loop and pick the wrong path. SMB1's maze castles are much more vague and trial-and-error in comparison.

Nintendo wouldn't even do something like LL as DLC today

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New Super Luigi U was almost this. But I didn't like it as much because the "everything and the kitchen sink" design principles of the NSMB series worked against it. (Star Coins for exploration do not mix well with 70-second timers; it just forces a lot of restarts as you comb through the levels over and over for more coins.)

 

[RockyBalboa_]

I prefer the USA release. But I do have an appreciation for the lost levels too.

 

[Treasure Silvergun]

The maze castles in LL have visual tells in (almost?) every loop point that clue the player in to the exact parts of the stages where you can mess up the loop and pick the wrong path. SMB1's maze castles are much more vague and trial-and-error in comparison.

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I won't deny this, but there's so much more than maze castles in both games and I was referring to level design in a much broader sense than just this.
Also those levels in SMB1 are so short that the trial and error is essentially a non-issue once you understand what to do.

New Super Luigi U was almost this. But I didn't like it as much because the "everything and the kitchen sink" design principles of the NSMB series worked against it. (Star Coins for exploration do not mix well with 70-second timers; it just forces a lot of restarts as you comb through the levels over and over for more coins.)

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I'm not sure here. Everything in NSLU is finely balanced around the shorter time limits, and the level design, while deliberately hard, rarely feels as cheap as LL.

The point is that LL intentionally subverts most things established in SMB, then proceeds to subvert its own established expectations the more you progress into the game. LL is constantly rewriting the rules and trolling the player. Again, you can find this fun, but it's hardly solid material to make a classic. There's a reason Kaizo games or stuff like I Wanna Be The Guy are very niche and not commercial.

In comparison, NSLU is hard, but always plays by the rules. It's full of "gotcha!" moments and difficult passages, but it's consistently fair.

 

[Deleted member 15125]

Besides the stupid warps that send you backwards, I am very curious about these insane unfair Kaizo moments in SMB2J.

 

[zma1013]

Lost Levels reminds me of Cat Mario.

 

[jett]

Super Mario Bros 2 USA is one of my favorite games on the NES.

I give no fucks about a SMB1 expansion pack.

 

[Zellia]

I'm not really a fan of either but if I had to pick, SMB2 USA.

 

[YolkFolk]

Great vid on the history of the two games.

 

[AnonymousApple]

Lost Levels is fun for more hardcore players (like me) but very poorly designed and feels like a crappy ROM hack.
Doki Doki Panic is far better - no contest.

 

[Mega Man Zero]

Besides the stupid warps that send you backwards, I am very curious about these insane unfair Kaizo moments in SMB2J.

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Too many Hammer Bros. 😭

This goes here.

 

[Barneystuta]

The one I grew up playing, SMB 2 (USA).

This is the best for me because:

- I grew up playing it, it was part of my childhood
- It was so different to SMB - it felt like a next gen game as a kid (obviously, I didnt know that term, but that's the feeling I had)
- It is unique in the Mario series. Nothing like it before or since

SMB2 (Lost levels) is a good game in it's own right. It is more SMB, which is no bad thing. The challenge does make it interesting.

 

[RetroCCN]

I vastly prefer the Lost Levels because of its faster pace and greater test of challenge and skill, but I can understand why so many do not care for it.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Doki is the better one if you have played SMB1, as Lost Levels is pretty much more of the same.
Doki is also the better one if you haven't played SMB1, as Lost Levels is too hard otherwise.

Personally, I think it's a missed opportunity that Doki's style never got the chance to be expanded upon the way SMB1 was.

 

[JuicyPlayer]

Lost Levels is the difficulty I want all Mario games to have.

 

[Deleted member 2618]

SUPAH MARIO BRUDDAS 2

 

[BlueShineSpark]

Logically it is Lost levels.
Practically it is Doki.

I voted Lost Levels.

 

[Jer]

Lost Levels felt like broken, unplayable trash.

US SMB 2 is super fun and charming.

So yeah, US SMB 2 by miles.

 

[Het_Nkik]

The better one. (USA.)

SMB2 Japan is great for a hardcore challenge, though. Took me a couple of weeks to get through all of its content (World 9, World's A through D).

 

[onpoint]

Lost Levels is simply not fun to play.

 

[Horohorohoro]

Doki Doki Panic. It's way more unique and feels way less like SMB1 hard mode. Plus, it added a lot of things to the main series that are basically staples, such as Shy Guys and throwing vegetables.

 

[Serene]

I always take issue when the thread title and poll title ask different questions. lol

Doki Doki Panic is a better game than Lost Levels, but Lost Levels is undoubtedly the "true" SMB2 by virtue of not being made from a different game.

 

[HylianSeven]

Lost Levels/The Real Mario 2 without a doubt. The Doki Doki Panic version is fun, but the real SMB2 actually is an evolution of SMB1, and feels like it pushes the series forward. It's very difficult, yes, but I think it's doable. Stuff like the poison mushroom and wind bring something new to it, and I think it's really something a lot of people sleep on. It's a neat game.

 

[Deleted member 35204]

Super Mario Advance

 

[Hieroph]

This is already settled. Throw in New Super Mario Bros. 2 to actually make it harder.

 

[Nose Master]

Doki. Lost levels is just like an official kaizo smb. Doki is a fresh take.

 

[JMTHEFOX]

Super Mario USA felt like a real sequel with real additions and a brand new story.

Lost Levels felt like a ROM hack with gimmicks shoehorned in and felt cheap than for professional players.

 

[JuicyPlayer]

I don't know how people can say Mario 2 JP has terrible level design when Mario Maker user levels exists? Mario 2 levels are the template for how I wish Mario Maker designers would go for.

 

[gutter_trash]

Vegetables are good for you!