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phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Sure, the original is scarce. I guess I meant it doesn't impose scarcity by limiting access to the asset.

Sure, but what is the point of that?

I think we agree about when NFT's do gain value (in both monetary value and usefulness) is when they are programmed with smart contracts. I'm personally convinced that at one point, alot of administration like house deeds, personal ownership, etc, will all be registered on a blockchain used by governments and banks. For instance, my house deed, of which there is only one, is linked to my personal account as an NFT, tracked by a blockchain ledger under government supervision, and smart contracts manage the transfer and sale of my house to another account. It removes some middle men from the equation and eases up on administrative tasks on both my end and the government. We're still a long way from that, but it's still very early and people are currently just playing with a newly found toy trading their JPG NFTs.

A blockchain application for rights management is indeed the only area I can see where it could be usefull but you dont need NFT's specifically for that.
But then the question is what is the difference with just a database? We already have a database here accessible to governments where property ownership is registered. This would also be centralized, removing one of the main benefits of blockchain applications. Maybe you could have some kind of automated notary here, but there are other reasons for notaries to exist like a check on the conditions under which contracts are made.

I was looking at blockchain applications for federated manufacturing, but even there you dont really need block chain technology.

Not to say I don't understand what people are doing. The energy use is baffling though PoS will help ALOT and there are alot of grifters (though alot of people in the crypto community also despite the current use of NFTs because it detracts attention from actual useful usage. There's just a very loud minority getting rich).

But for instance, my dad was active in the art world for a while. At my home we have a lot of abstract works from artists who made multiple silkscreens of an artwork. I have always compared the current usage of NFT's to those. I personally don't see much difference between having 'silkscreen nr. 7 out of 50 of an artwork' hanging on our wall with a certificate of authenticity somewhere in a dusty drawer and having an asset in a digital space that can easily be copied with a certificate of authenticity somewhere stored on a blockchain.

I dont know man, I would love for some of my artist friend to get paid for their digital art, but those silkscreens are still different unique objects, with even some labor going into them in stead of an exact copy that took no inputs to produce.
 

Masterspeed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,827
England
Personally I've been involved with a couple million dollars worth of NFT sales this year and I'm involved with all kinds of cool NFT projects that have utility in various fashions, I'm even designing an NFT collection currently in which the buyer does get a sublicense for the commercial rights to the media involved

Most of the criticisms towards NFTs are pretty dumb because it's an extremely open ended technology that can be almost anything, and can do basically almost anything too; NFTs with no utility do not actually sell for that much except for the "vintage" NFT collections from like 2017, the big selling NFT collections now all have an actual purpose one way or another, like unlocking content or being used to purchase something or to be staked to earn something

Here's a bunch of cool NFT collections that are not just a series of images:

thedogepoundnft.com

The Doge Pound is a collection of 10,000 unique Doge NFTs on Ethereum Blockchain.

The Doge Pound NFT, also called 'OG Doge' within the community, is a collection of 10,000 NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens) on the Ethereum blockchain. Every OG Doge grants members-only benefits, including early access to new releases from our gaming studio & partners, upcoming P2E games, conferences...
www.cryptokitties.co

CryptoKitties | Collect and breed digital cats!

Collect and trade CryptoKitties in one of the world’s first blockchain games. Breed your rarest cats to create the purrfect furry friend. The future is meow!
www.cyberkongz.com

CyberKongz

Welcome to an alternate reality, where evolution took a different route and weird apes roam the earth. Some appear normal. Some look weird. And some are just damn cool! Every CyberKong is unique and owns randomized items with different rarities.

Hashplants

Digitaly cultivated NFTs
worldofwomen.art

Home - World of Women

World of Women: A community celebrating representation, inclusivity, and equal opportunities for all. United by a first-of-its-kind collection, featuring 10,000 artworks of diverse and powerful women.

Many of these NFT Collections above actually do give commercial rights to the buyers, have multiple functions, change over time, can be "bred" together to make new NFTs, and in general just have a broad road map of all kinds of features involved with the NFTs themselves beyond just being an image. I do not think the randos in here jumping on and hating NFTs are aware of how expansive and rapidly growing this space actually is, and to be honest, I've made this exact type of post like 5 times here on this board and still see the same people taking a dump on NFTs without probably even reading this post

This is exact type of mentality towards NFTs make me want to throw up.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,556
Also this post is ridiculous, movies, tv shows and music get their value from their entertainment value, NFTs get their value because some dudes say they have value and spent money on it. It's all a fucking get rich quick scheme that will eventually blow up in someone's face.



I don't think anyone's issue is with the existence of the technology but how it's being applied currently. I think you'll be hard pressed to find people who take issue with a digital record of ownership existing for a real world asset sometime in the future. People are just annoyed with evangelists talking about how smart they were for paying 6 grand for a hash value confirming they own a picture to some butt ugly art, access to a discord server and promises orders of magnitude sketchier than the mighty number 9 kickstarter.

Sure, I get the annoyance. But look around. Many people take issue with the existance of the technology because they principally refuse to look into it and equate blockchain with Bitcoin and NFT with jpg's.

Look I'm super old and dumb, so this is a real question and not trolling.

How is this any different from something like the Steam Inventory in sayyyyy, Team Fortress 2. In case if you don't play it:

* players can acquire copies of items that are attached to their accounts by playing the game or spending either real money or steam wallet on them in a store.

* these items are a combination of art and gameplay content as they give you access to weapons or cosmetics in the game but can be displayed on your Steam Profile.

* these items can be sold/traded for Steam Wallet cash (which can be traded out for real world cash on some websites by gifting stuff in exchange for paypal) or other items with other players.

* the original creators of that item get a special Self Made version so everyone knows/can find out who made the actual item, so the original is different from the copies.

* uses fuck all energy to do any of this

Because for the life of me I can't wrap my head around how NFT's are any different...and if they aren't then uhhh, why use so much energy to do something that can already be replicated in a much more energy efficient way. It's not like it's particularly hard to identify a piece of digital content as an original and assign it to someone with an account based system while everyone else can only get a slightly different version of it.

Okay, so first of all, NFT's are non-fungible tokens. They use a blockchain, which is a decentralized ledger (much like a torrents). Neither NFT's or blockchains need to have any monetary value, nor do they need to use energy. It's just that bitcoin was the first implementation of a blockchain and is used to store monetary value and to keep the ledger alive, people need to mine. It's called proof of work, where your computer verifies everything that happens on the blockchain and adds new information onto it (lets compare it to seeding to keep a torrent alive), it needs to solve a complicated code. Solving this code uses your computer, and it needs energy so you get awarded a bit of money as compensation for your costs and as a reward of keeping the network alive.

It's important to note that in essence, the blockchain technology, and by extension, NFT's, do not equal bitcoin. For instance, many newer blockchains don't use proof-of-work anymore but proof of stake, where participating in the network gives you rewards through staking. So in simple terms, instead of the 'seeding' analogy, it's more akin of setting up my pc as a checkpoint and validate data. To set up a checkpoint, or 'node', I need to proof I have a stake in the network I'm keeping up, so I need to lock some value into it, and as a return I'll receive interest on the value I locked up into it. Locking up value means I can't sell it, so it keeps the value of whatever token stabile. That's really to just really sum it up in a simplified way.

Since a blockchain is a decentralized ledger of public (!) data, it can be used for anything. In the case of NFT's, you can publicly say 'I own this' and it gets put in the ledger. If everyone participating in the network (be it Proof of work or stake), then it gets added to the ledger and become public information.

Most NFT's are on the ethereum blockchain, which is a programmable blockchain. This means it can execute code which gets triggered in certain circumstances. For instance, like with the house deed example I used in a previous post, I can create an NFT of my house deed and the public ledger confirms that I indeed own my house and there's no discussion about it. It will be registered in perpetuity. I can choose to sell my house, and transfer the NFT to a different person, and make sure there is a code executed that they won't receive the deed of ownership until they have paid fully. Or I can make a smart contract saying that they need to pay 20% of the worth now, they get the NFT now, and then need to pay the rest of the 80% over a period of five years. In essence, this circumvents banks (though in reality, what's already happening is that banks are starting to switch to blockchain to track transactions of all their products, remember: they can set up their own private blockchains! - though they aren't very decentralized).

Ethereum being programmable also allows layers to be built on top of it which are blockchains by itself. For instance, that bank can built it own blockchain to track transactions, and use the security of the Ethereum network and its validators to make it work. Because the bank uses the Ethereum network for security, it has to pay the validators who do all the work of securing (Visa is already moving in that direction for instance).

In short, the difference between doing something like TF2 content and an NFT is very much a behind the scenes thing. It's technology. Steam, for instance, could change from a centralized server model to a decentralized blockchain. They could use a blockchain that is proof-of-stake and thus uses very little energy. The blockchain would keep track of all users, which items they have, how much real money or steam gift cards they have on their accounts, what games they have in their library and all that. And Steam also wouldn't need to store this on a server, it would be on a decentralized ledger much like how torrents aren't hosted 'anywhere'.

If Steam would allow it, users could also be able to transfer their data to a different blockchain, or sell it to users on the same blockchain. With smart contracts, Valve for instance could make sure it gets a 40% cut on everything you sell on the blockchain and the rest goes to you. If developers and publishers work together, you could in theory transfer data and assets from one game to another. But this is heading into very speculative territory and is unlikely to happen.

But the gist of it is that blockchain in itself is a technology to publicly store any form of data, and more advanced versions of the tech allows you to program it and build unto it. In its essence its agnostic and is not owned by a corporation but by anyone participating in the blockchain. A good working blockchain is secure, unhackable and makes it easy to track all transactions. (Disclaimer: since it's still a bit the wild west, not all blockchains are working good)

So in the case of Steam, we all trust Steam. I get that there's little issue taken with Steam doing all the things you described. But servers can be hacked, corporations can go bankrupt, in the end most profits go to one party. Blockchain allows more freedom to transfer items, value, data,... (but the creator of the blockchain has to allow it, Steam wouldn't) and instead of all data being owned by Valve, it wouldn't be owned by anyone. Your data would be owned by you.

To be clear, it's still early tech, and alot of experimentation is happening. In the end, my personal conviction is that blockchain will be largely invisble and no one will interact directly with it. You use a bank? Transactions are stored on a blockchain owned by the international banking system. Sell a house? Transaction is stored on a blockchain run by the government. You buy solar panels? Create a blockchain with your neighborhood to sell your extra power and settle your bills between each other. In each of these examples, the application is a 'layer' running on top of a central blockchain, which is secured by decentralized validators and allows for freedom of movement between layers. But we're absolutely not there yet. We're currently in something akin to the command line era of personal computer, and the goal is to get to easy-of-use of smartphones. Will we ever get there? I don't know.

If you're curious of a list of blockchain applications that are currently being worked on you can check this link.

Disclaimer before I'm declared a 'shill': I'm unaffiliated with any type of blockchain and I don't mine, I don't validate, I don't sell anything, I have never cared about the current use of NFT's. I am interested in the tech though, and I'm very cynical of the current state and privatization of the internet. While I'm unsure in how things will evolve, I am curious about how it will evolve since there is potential for increased personal ownership of your data and the elimination of a lot of middlemen.
 

FunkyStudent

Member
Jan 28, 2019
768
That's pretty much it.
I know the basics of NFT enough and that's precisely why I make fun of it. Not the other way around.

It only exists as a mean of profiting. That's it. Anything can be sold if there's someone who values it enough. Much better if there is a group of people competing for it. Right now, all that NFT evangelists do is try to increase demand on these worthless digital items hoping that enough people will buy into the scheme. The whole system depends on it.

This whole system is so damn dumb and the fact that you've found someone stupid enough to pay you big sums of money for this shit doesn't proof that it's valuable, only that you've found someone guillible enough.
Or someone who is able to keep the plates spinning and make even more.
 

Uhyve

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,168
No.

It is a public record of ownership.
This. A lot of misinformation here. There's nothing about NFTs that prohibits copying them.

I really don't get the value of NFTs, so please explain to me if I'm not following correctly.

NFTs don't infer ownership of the original works, you only own the token.

This guy has managed to dump byte-perfect copies of the original files associated with the tokens. If I create an NFT of one of those files, we both own tokens of exactly the same thing, it would just have a different ID or something. I would legitimately own that new token, nothing illegal has happened. What gives the original token more value than my token?

Or in other words, how do NFTs have value if you can just create new tokens that have exactly the same rights and functions attached?
 
if NFT evangelists wanted the concept to be taken more seriously, then maybe there should been an effort not to let the bluntmonkey crap become the face of it all. No matter how you feel about NFTs, you cannot deny that the current perception of it is commanded by that absolute drek.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
So it's money laundering

I really don't get the value of NFTs, so please explain to me if I'm not following correctly.

NFTs don't infer ownership of the original works, you only own the token.

This guy has managed to dump byte-perfect copies of the original files associated with the tokens. If I create an NFT of one of those files, we both own tokens of exactly the same thing, it would just have a different ID or something. I would legitimately own that new token, nothing illegal has happened. What gives the original token more value than my token?

Or in other words, how do NFTs have value if you can just create new tokens that have exactly the same rights and functions attached?

I was just explaining the technical aspect. I don't claim to understand or believe in the current economic model that's proliferated around the technology. I think it's an interesting idea that has yet to find a compelling application, and object to the way it's currently being used.

My post was only directed at posters claiming this person found some hidden loophole or was able to break the technology. He hasn't and he didn't.

As to why so many people are defending the idea of paying large sums of money to own metadata when the actual data is neither unique nor uncopyable, fuck if I know.
 

Dakkon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,227

Thank you for the information.

So tl;dr though effectively the only difference between NFT's and something like a Steam item or other equivalents is that NFTs are shared through a decentralized network, whereas Steam items are reliant on a corporations network and so in essence NFTs have more potential "permeance"* since you don't gotta worry about a company going under, tho yeah?

Coz if that's the case I really don't get the big deal behind them tbh, in either the "hey this is cool" or "hey they suck" direction, esp. if true that most of them are handled through an energy efficient blockchain.

*The post earlier about how the distributor of where the image was linked deleted the image effectively making the NFT go to a 404 page kind of throws this for a loop though if that's generally true. If true, I don't actually see how an NFT is better because TBH I'd 100% trust a company like Steam to stay afloat longer than most people keeping their stuff on the internet.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,556
I see this use case come up a lot but I'm incredibly skeptical that the system can be useful and robust enough to see adoption. If the government is able to supervise the deed then what's the point of having it on-chain? On the other hand if the government isn't able to exert control over the deed then it would be ludicrous for them to recognise its legitimacy.
The point would be that it's decentralized and the exclusion of middle men.

The most obvious difference is that physical copies are unique and will always be unique, digital copies aren't. How much stock you place in that varies from person to person and medium to medium. Of course if artists have started embedding the numbers into the actual image while I haven't been paying attention that's a different story, but stamping a series of identical copies with a number still doesn't quite have the same appeal to me.
I get it, and like I said, I personally agree. But like my dad and his silkscreens, I also understand people do care about it and see the appeal in it.

Picture of the Mona Lisa and the actual Mona Lisa aren't remotely the same thing.

You might think you can explain NFTs but you clearly can't explain art.

Ah yes "I can just get a forger to make me a Mona Lisa"... but it is us critics of NFTs who don't get it.

Though it really kind of illuminates a sort of illusionary thinking to justify the value of NFTs when you speak of high res images and forgeries of the Mona Lisa as being the Mona Lisa
Great way to completely miss the point of what I'm saying though. The example I used was clearly to demonstrate the difference between access and ownership. It was to made clear that NFT's were never to limit access to digital assets. Much like not owning the Mona Lisa makes it invisible to you or prevents you from forging it or printing it.

Since you clearly understand art, how do you feel about a limited number of identical silkscreens made by an artist?

I know you have other replies after this one and I have read them. I actually do understand what you are saying here and over the course of your posts. But I think there's an issue with your posts that is worth challenging that also summarizes some of the tension with blockchain technology in general. There is theory, of what the technology could be used for, and there is the reality, of what the technology is being used for right now.

You are correct that there are theoretical applications for NFTs to represent deeds, licenses, and rights. Some of these things might even be practical, useful, and good. However the reality of NFTs is they are exclusively being used to promote arbitrary ownership of mass produced commercial images. This is the brand of the technology. This is the image of the technology. And right now, this is also the reality of the technology. So when people react to the technology and its applications, it is not really reasonable to expect people to overlook the immediate reality of the tech in favor of thinking broadly and respect hypothetical applications instead. Because even if the technology could be used to transfer ownership of deeds, titles, and licenses, it is not being used for that. People hate what is is being used for. When that is the only thing the technology is being used for, it is not unreasonable to condemn the technology.

Everything NFTs are being used for right now, and the concept of the technology being promoted by its early adopters, undermines what you believe are its longterm practical applications. All of the talking points of NFT art collectors inspire very little confidence in the legitimacy and longevity of the tech because everything they believe is predicated on insular, manufactured concepts of ownership and authenticity. They are not concepts that people broadly agree with or support - they are, in fact, concepts people vehemently oppose. So when people go on to say how the technology can be used for other more important things as well, people have no trust in those ideas because the proof of concept has gone, and continues to go, absolutely terribly.
And I agree. But at a certain point, especially here, any form of discussion about anything crypto or blockchain or NFT immediately gets stamped out by a parade of people why absolutely hate crypto (and they certainly have good reasons to hate it) and a lot of arguments brought up are just antiquated. So many posters equating crypto to Bitcoin for instance, or repeating the energy consumption argument when they don't understand the difference between PoW and PoS. It's frustrating because it's the same attitude used by boomers when they're yelling about how video games are making children violent while in reality, the conversation you're having is about Super Mario Bros.

Your tone about how people do not understand what they're criticizing is also part of the problem here. Critics of this technology and how it is being used think its proselytes are deranged, detached, and delusional. The art is hideous. The concept of ownership is totally artificial. The attempt to impose limitations on something previously unlimited on the internet is seen as ideologically heinous. People involved with the market for these tokens are universally either deeply dishonest or exceedingly naive. People view NFT proponents so negatively because their perspective is so unrelatable and so offputting that the only possible response is hostility or hilarity. So when NFT champions say that the masses just don't get it and don't understand what they're criticizing, it just contributes further to this idea that their way of thinking is unique entirely to them and cannot be reconciled with reality.

Because the reality, right now, is that NFTs are being forced in to spaces that people find objectionable and offensive and it does a very poor job proving the hypothetical applications in the future that might be better. So it's not that people don't get it, it's that it doesn't matter because that's not the reality we live in.

I keep tweaking this to try not to come across as hostile but I'm also trying to demonstrate the intensity of people's opposition to the way the technology is used. So I will pad the post and try to clarify that I am trying to demonstrate hostility towards the concepts, not towards you personally. I hope that comes across clearly.
Oh yeah, I get your tone and it's totally okay. And I understand it. But like I just said a bit above, at a point the hostility becomes detrimental. It feels like tomorrow all NFT's could be transfered to a PoS blockchain for instance, and we'd still hear arguments about energy use for years to come on Resetera just because people refuse to get informed about how things have involved in the space. I honestly don't mind people hating blockchain, crypto or NFT at all, it's just that I wish there was more a conversation to be had with relevant arguments.

For instance, I like you mentioning putting limitations on something previously unlimited being idealogically heinous. I honestly do believe there's an interesting discussion to be had there because I don't believe that the current internet offers anything 'unlimited'. The internet is being stored on servers owned by corporations, all your data is in the hands of Google, Amazon, Facebook, digital ownership already is a joke since you don't own any movie, game or anything else you bought digitally, if you're an artist, your work can get stolen easily. My point of view is that the internet in its current form is only evolving even more in that direction and that blockchain offers a -potential- solution to several of those things. We'll see if it ever comes to that, but I do think there's a point to be made that blockchain technology can make the internet a more democratic place than it currently is.

Maybe I'm wrong about that. But the current climate on blockchain on Resetera makes it nighly impossible to discuss, and that's too bad.
 

Biske

Member
Nov 11, 2017
8,283
The funniest thing about NFTs is... Nobody cares if you own it. Absolutely nobody. Your digital block chain receipt means nothing, gives you no rights to it, nobody is checking, nobody cares, nobody to enforce your "ownership" which actually conveys no ownership rights to you.


Let's say we start using NFTs for like deeds to your house, it still doesn't mean anything unless a government, bank, police force, whatever is willing to uphold that and recognize it. At the point your magical decentralized Crypto bullshit.. is just another part of government.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,990
To be clear, it's still early tech, and alot of experimentation is happening. In the end, my personal conviction is that blockchain will be largely invisble and no one will interact directly with it. You use a bank? Transactions are stored on a blockchain owned by the international banking system. Sell a house? Transaction is stored on a blockchain run by the government. You buy solar panels? Create a blockchain with your neighborhood to sell your extra power and settle your bills between each other. In each of these examples, the application is a 'layer' running on top of a central blockchain, which is secured by decentralized validators and allows for freedom of movement between layers. But we're absolutely not there yet. We're currently in something akin to the command line era of personal computer, and the goal is to get to easy-of-use of smartphones. Will we ever get there? I don't know.
I have spent so much time talking about Blockchain and NFTs and everything else in the last few weeks, so forgive me if this isn't as detailed as I normally get or as detailed as your own post. I understand the vision you're describing here and on some level I also get the appeal if it worked as described, but it still seems to run into some pretty major issues for me, issues that explain why we haven't seen blockchain tech really take off in the general recordkeeping space despite being almost a decade into the tech being available (and half a decade into a billion startups springing up around it)

The primary issue is that database record alteration is just not a real threat in pretty much any database, centralized, or uncentralized. In every single case of "hacking" or "security breach" or whatever, the attack is never to alter the records in the database, its to gain access credentials to the interface system and then use the interface system to make what appear to be legitimate alterations, or use the system to erase the record of your presence. But the important thing is that you need an interface system, which immediately breaks the blockchain's promise in trustlessness. If we're honest, 95% of people transacting crypto, exchanging NFTs, or otherwise interacting with the blockchain right now are doing so through a system like Coinbase, Opensea, or some other brokerage, and that brokerage is just as vulnerable to an attack that involves stealing credentials and then submitting bad data onto the chain as my bank account is vulnerable to someone getting my password, logging in, and then wiring all my money to an untraceable account.

Yes in theory you don't need Coinbase, you don't need OpenSea, you don't need any of those systems technically, you can just do naked crypto transactions with a second party, but in that case you need to establish trust one-on-one with that party. Etherium's programmatic systems can support trustless transactions for anything that is purely digital, because that resides entirely within the sphere of influence of the programming (and note that even financial transactions require some degree of trust to convert back into fiat, there's always a tie in to an external system), but as soon as you introduce anything that relates back to the physical world such as property titles or measurements of power generation then you're back to the interface problem: some piece of software is translating the real world into data to be manipulated on the blockchain, and that interface is vulnerable. And if we have ways to cryptographically secure that interface then we also have the same ways to secure an interface accessing a centralized system; the problems and the solutions remain the same, the blockchain doesn't bring anything itself to the table

I just don't see it becoming widespread in the way you describe because I don't see it solving the trust problems that large institutions actually have with digital recordkeeping.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,556
Thank you for the information.

So tl;dr though effectively the only difference between NFT's and something like a Steam item or other equivalents is that NFTs are shared through a decentralized network, whereas Steam items are reliant on a corporations network and so in essence NFTs have more potential "permeance"* since you don't gotta worry about a company going under, tho yeah?

Coz if that's the case I really don't get the big deal behind them tbh, in either the "hey this is cool" or "hey they suck" direction, esp. if true that most of them are handled through an energy efficient blockchain.

*The post earlier about how the distributor of where the image was linked deleted the image effectively making the NFT go to a 404 page kind of throws this for a loop though if that's generally true. If true, I don't actually see how an NFT is better because TBH I'd 100% trust a company like Steam to stay afloat longer than most people keeping their stuff on the internet.
Yes, exactly. It's also why I don't care at all about NFT's. I also don't care about Steam items because I honestly just don't see the point of it. It's an immature usage of still immature tech. In my head, it's akin to the 'pretend your drinking beer from your smartphone' apps that you could buy for 99 cents on the App Store. I feel there's something there, but it's just being wasted on nonsense.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,343
Great way to completely miss the point of what I'm saying though. The example I used was clearly to demonstrate the difference between access and ownership. It was to made clear that NFT's were never to limit access to digital assets. Much like not owning the Mona Lisa makes it invisible to you or prevents you from forging it or printing it.

Since you clearly understand art, how do you feel about a limited number of identical silkscreens made by an artist?

A whole bunch of access to not the Lisa Mona is in fact not acess to the Mona Lisa

Silkscreens are all going to be inevitably slightly different it's impossible to on a physical level create identical art pieces... unlike literally copying identical png files.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
The funniest thing about NFTs is... Nobody cares if you own it. Absolutely nobody. Your digital block chain receipt means nothing, gives you no rights to it, nobody is checking, nobody cares, nobody to enforce your "ownership" which actually conveys no ownership rights to you.


Let's say we start using NFTs for like deeds to your house, it still doesn't mean anything unless a government, bank, police force, whatever is willing to uphold that and recognize it. At the point your magical decentralized Crypto bullshit.. is just another part of government.
That's another thing I don't get. If the rights are enforced, they would be enforced by a specific entity... which means it wouldn't be decentralized anymore, is it?
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Thank you for this.
If I may ask (because it seems like you might be able to provide a simple answer which I haven't been able to figure out for myself yet):

What makes proof-of-stake blockchains secure and decentralized on a comparable level to proof-of-work chains?

Proof of work's security and decentralization both stem from it's inherent inneficiency.
What's prohibiting a large stake owner in a proof of stake network from forking the chain in their favor?
And why is it a good idea to allow those with a higher stake to exercise more influence on the network in the first place? Isn't that just another name for centralization?
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,803
one-piece-gold-roger.gif
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Personally I've been involved with a couple million dollars worth of NFT sales this year and I'm involved with all kinds of cool NFT projects that have utility in various fashions, I'm even designing an NFT collection currently in which the buyer does get a sublicense for the commercial rights to the media involved

Most of the criticisms towards NFTs are pretty dumb because it's an extremely open ended technology that can be almost anything, and can do basically almost anything too; NFTs with no utility do not actually sell for that much except for the "vintage" NFT collections from like 2017, the big selling NFT collections now all have an actual purpose one way or another, like unlocking content or being used to purchase something or to be staked to earn something

Here's a bunch of cool NFT collections that are not just a series of images:

thedogepoundnft.com

The Doge Pound is a collection of 10,000 unique Doge NFTs on Ethereum Blockchain.

The Doge Pound NFT, also called 'OG Doge' within the community, is a collection of 10,000 NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens) on the Ethereum blockchain. Every OG Doge grants members-only benefits, including early access to new releases from our gaming studio & partners, upcoming P2E games, conferences...
www.cryptokitties.co

CryptoKitties | Collect and breed digital cats!

Collect and trade CryptoKitties in one of the world’s first blockchain games. Breed your rarest cats to create the purrfect furry friend. The future is meow!
www.cyberkongz.com

CyberKongz

Welcome to an alternate reality, where evolution took a different route and weird apes roam the earth. Some appear normal. Some look weird. And some are just damn cool! Every CyberKong is unique and owns randomized items with different rarities.

Hashplants

Digitaly cultivated NFTs
worldofwomen.art

Home - World of Women

World of Women: A community celebrating representation, inclusivity, and equal opportunities for all. United by a first-of-its-kind collection, featuring 10,000 artworks of diverse and powerful women.

Many of these NFT Collections above actually do give commercial rights to the buyers, have multiple functions, change over time, can be "bred" together to make new NFTs, and in general just have a broad road map of all kinds of features involved with the NFTs themselves beyond just being an image. I do not think the randos in here jumping on and hating NFTs are aware of how expansive and rapidly growing this space actually is, and to be honest, I've made this exact type of post like 5 times here on this board and still see the same people taking a dump on NFTs without probably even reading this post
So you took advantage of people and sold them nothing but terrible looking art in hopes that they too can resell it.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
The entire premise of NFTs is a shell game. NFTs inherently cannot give yo my ownership of art. NFTs are simply a record of a transaction and a link to something. Anything that isn't transactional in nature (e.g. actually viewing a piece of art, or deriving works from it) are inherently not a supported use case of NFTs because they are simply a transaction ledger. And the transaction ledger inherently cannot contain the actual bits of the art. Just a link. The art still needs to be hosted elsewhere and the link needs to be validated separately. The whole notion of "NFTs are proof of ownership" is just window dressing to get people to buy in. They are not ownership. They are just record keeping. Ownership is a meaningless concept in digital art, as anyone can copy the bits one-to-one and also have the art. Trying to map physical concepts of ownership to something digital is folly, which is why NFTs are a sham. What matters in digital art instead is access, which inherently is not facilitatable by NFTs alone. You still need a third party to read your transaction record and grant you the access.
 

Calvinien

Banned
Jul 13, 2019
2,970
The thing that I find amaziong about NFTs is that no matter how stupid it sounds when you describe them, they are still dumber. I had a devil of a time explaining this to my mother because she literally could not conceive of people spending their money on something this arbitrary and stupid.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,795
Toronto, ON
Personally I've been involved with a couple million dollars worth of NFT sales this year and I'm involved with all kinds of cool NFT projects that have utility in various fashions, I'm even designing an NFT collection currently in which the buyer does get a sublicense for the commercial rights to the media involved

Most of the criticisms towards NFTs are pretty dumb because it's an extremely open ended technology that can be almost anything, and can do basically almost anything too; NFTs with no utility do not actually sell for that much except for the "vintage" NFT collections from like 2017, the big selling NFT collections now all have an actual purpose one way or another, like unlocking content or being used to purchase something or to be staked to earn something

Here's a bunch of cool NFT collections that are not just a series of images:

thedogepoundnft.com

The Doge Pound is a collection of 10,000 unique Doge NFTs on Ethereum Blockchain.

The Doge Pound NFT, also called 'OG Doge' within the community, is a collection of 10,000 NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens) on the Ethereum blockchain. Every OG Doge grants members-only benefits, including early access to new releases from our gaming studio & partners, upcoming P2E games, conferences...
www.cryptokitties.co

CryptoKitties | Collect and breed digital cats!

Collect and trade CryptoKitties in one of the world’s first blockchain games. Breed your rarest cats to create the purrfect furry friend. The future is meow!
www.cyberkongz.com

CyberKongz

Welcome to an alternate reality, where evolution took a different route and weird apes roam the earth. Some appear normal. Some look weird. And some are just damn cool! Every CyberKong is unique and owns randomized items with different rarities.

Hashplants

Digitaly cultivated NFTs
worldofwomen.art

Home - World of Women

World of Women: A community celebrating representation, inclusivity, and equal opportunities for all. United by a first-of-its-kind collection, featuring 10,000 artworks of diverse and powerful women.

Many of these NFT Collections above actually do give commercial rights to the buyers, have multiple functions, change over time, can be "bred" together to make new NFTs, and in general just have a broad road map of all kinds of features involved with the NFTs themselves beyond just being an image. I do not think the randos in here jumping on and hating NFTs are aware of how expansive and rapidly growing this space actually is, and to be honest, I've made this exact type of post like 5 times here on this board and still see the same people taking a dump on NFTs without probably even reading this post

I mean...you say that these are "cool NFT collections that are not just a series of images" but I looked at everything you linked. They are are all, and I mean every single thing you linked, a series of absolutely hideous JPEGs of radditue dogs and monkies that look procedurally generated. There were also some ugly low-polygon plants with a bit of a ~vaporwave~ filter over them. These are ...not cool, and they are just a series of images.

I can't speak to their technical value or how they are "open ended" and "can be almost anything" - that may very well be true. But the examples you've given are just collections of ugly JPEGs that are devoid of artistic/aesthetic value.

If the space is really so profoundly expansive and rapidly growing, do you have anything I can look at that isn't a procedurally generated 3D head or an amateurish drawing of a bad ass dog making a rude face while wearing a slice of cheese on its nose?
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,051
I don't have any problem with NFT's but people who swear by them need to stop deluding themselves. It's a money making scheme. That's it. That's why you bought into it. To make money. It has no inherent value. You didn't do it to "amplify small artists". You bought an NFT in the hopes that you can sell it at a higher price than you paid. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just be real and call it what it is.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,343
It's so sad how so many people really have no connection to visual arts in a digital age.

I literally was inches from several Van Goghs when I was in Paris and seeing century old+ brush strokes from this brilliant man in person irrespective of the image they make, just being able to see the layers of paint, the product of a single movement of his hand forever frozen in time.

Like it's a transformative experience that no high res image, and especially not fucking forgery can ever recreate.

But you hear people and it's like ehhb I can just download a picture or get someone to paint me a copy.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,921
The entire premise of NFTs is a shell game. NFTs inherently cannot give yo my ownership of art. NFTs are simply a record of a transaction and a link to something. Anything that isn't transactional in nature (e.g. actually viewing a piece of art, or deriving works from it) are inherently not a supported use case of NFTs because they are simply a transaction ledger. And the transaction ledger inherently cannot contain the actual bits of the art. Just a link. The art still needs to be hosted elsewhere and the link needs to be validated separately. The whole notion of "NFTs are proof of ownership" is just window dressing to get people to buy in. They are not ownership. They are just record keeping. Ownership is a meaningless concept in digital art, as anyone can copy the bits one-to-one and also have the art. Trying to map physical concepts of ownership to something digital is folly, which is why NFTs are a sham. What matters in digital art instead is access, which inherently is not facilitatable by NFTs alone. You still need a third party to read your transaction record and grant you the access.

Lmao
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,556
Thank you for this.
If I may ask (because it seems like you might be able to provide a simple answer which I haven't been able to figure out for myself yet):

What makes proof-of-stake blockchains secure and decentralized on a comparable level to proof-of-work chains?

Proof of work's security and decentralization both stem from it's inherent inneficiency.
What's prohibiting a large stake owner in a proof of stake network from forking the chain in their favor?
And why is it a good idea to allow those with a higher stake to exercise more influence on the network in the first place? Isn't that just another name for centralization?
Not an expert on this, but this is the way I understand it: so if you want to stake on a PoS blockchain, you set up a node and you lock in a certain value of that blockchains value. Much like PoW where everyone is trying to crack the hash at the same time but only the miner gets the reward and the rest instantly verifies that whatever has been added to the blockchain is correct, in PoS there also needs to be a majority consensus between all nodes before something gets added to the blockchain.

So in essence, you could divert the blockchain in your favor if you own 50+% of the nodes. In that case you could make them all agree with you and that's that. It's an argument that many Bitcoiners use against PoS.

At the same time, PoS significantly lowers the treshold to become a validator. Proof of Work at some points requires really strong hardware (as we can see with Bitcoin and the current scarcity) where at a certain point, it just become very difficult and expensive for anyone to just jump in and help secure the network.

Becoming a PoS validator still costs a bit of money, but the treshold is significantly lower so the idea is that there will be much more validators, making the system much more decentralized and making it harder for one party to gain control of 50+% of the network.

Meanwhile, to get 50+% of the network, you also have to stake the currency of the network. I just checked and in total 35 billion worth of ETH is currently locked up in a staking contract to validate the network. And the network hasn't even made the jump to PoS, this is just prep for the jump in about six months.

So if you want to hijack the Ethereum network at this moment and you currently have no node to validate already setup, it would currently cost you a little over 35 billion USD to gain a 51% majority on the network. Your 35 billion would subsequently immediately become worthless because you got that money locked up on a network you just made completely worthless. That's one hell of a suicide mission.

You can read this for more information: https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/consensus-mechanisms/pos/. I'm not very good in using technical terms.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
The entire premise of NFTs is a shell game. NFTs inherently cannot give yo my ownership of art. NFTs are simply a record of a transaction and a link to something. Anything that isn't transactional in nature (e.g. actually viewing a piece of art, or deriving works from it) are inherently not a supported use case of NFTs because they are simply a transaction ledger. And the transaction ledger inherently cannot contain the actual bits of the art. Just a link. The art still needs to be hosted elsewhere and the link needs to be validated separately. The whole notion of "NFTs are proof of ownership" is just window dressing to get people to buy in. They are not ownership. They are just record keeping. Ownership is a meaningless concept in digital art, as anyone can copy the bits one-to-one and also have the art. Trying to map physical concepts of ownership to something digital is folly, which is why NFTs are a sham. What matters in digital art instead is access, which inherently is not facilitatable by NFTs alone. You still need a third party to read your transaction record and grant you the access.

Tweet text said:
for instance: did you know that nft art is NOT stored on the blockchain?

Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone knows that at this point...

👇
When are folks going to realize that nobody needs a crash course on NFTs and that people are making fun of them (and their evangelists) with all of the requisite knowledge? The narrative that if somebody makes fun of NFTs means that they don't understand them is an extremely old bit that's not rooted in reality. Stop acting like you're on the avant-garde of tech and that we need a lesson lol
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
No time to address individual posters, but the current implementation should not be viewed as the final form of all of this.

"On-chain" NFTs do already exist, fyi. E.g. https://www.larvalabs.com/autoglyphs
Those cannot simply disappear.
Besides that there are blockchains dedicated to web storage which could also store NFTs, it's just that IPFS is the easiest route to take right now.

Down the line you could also simply just store code in a block to generate the artwork upon request.
You could also have some semblance of access control too: Encrypt the code and leave it up to the owner to decrypt it or not. A smart contract could do that automatically upon sale btw. (deliver private key to buyer).
If said artwork is not only a 2d pic you couldn't just steal it either. Without code you'd have to re-imagine or fake it, like how works of art are currently faked. Especially in controlled environments (i.e. some form of metaverse) stealing code would not be that easy.

Nonetheless, the proof of ownership would still be with you. And so, in a potential metaverse which enforces ownership rights, you would not be able to slip in a 1:1 copy of the art.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Not an expert on this, but this is the way I understand it: so if you want to stake on a PoS blockchain, you set up a node and you lock in a certain value of that blockchains value. Much like PoW where everyone is trying to crack the hash at the same time but only the miner gets the reward and the rest instantly verifies that whatever has been added to the blockchain is correct, in PoS there also needs to be a majority consensus between all nodes before something gets added to the blockchain.

So in essence, you could divert the blockchain in your favor if you own 50+% of the nodes. In that case you could make them all agree with you and that's that. It's an argument that many Bitcoiners use against PoS.

At the same time, PoS significantly lowers the treshold to become a validator. Proof of Work at some points requires really strong hardware (as we can see with Bitcoin and the current scarcity) where at a certain point, it just become very difficult and expensive for anyone to just jump in and help secure the network.

Becoming a PoS validator still costs a bit of money, but the treshold is significantly lower so the idea is that there will be much more validators, making the system much more decentralized and making it harder for one party to gain control of 50+% of the network.

Meanwhile, to get 50+% of the network, you also have to stake the currency of the network. I just checked and in total 35 billion worth of ETH is currently locked up in a staking contract to validate the network. And the network hasn't even made the jump to PoS, this is just prep for the jump in about six months.

So if you want to hijack the Ethereum network at this moment and you currently have no node to validate already setup, it would currently cost you a little over 35 billion USD to gain a 51% majority on the network. Your 35 billion would subsequently immediately become worthless because you got that money locked up on a network you just made completely worthless. That's one hell of a suicide mission.

You can read this for more information: https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/consensus-mechanisms/pos/. I'm not very good in using technical terms.
So currently the Ethereum network is still proof of work based, and at the same time, since validators are chosen randomly and the number of nodes you control are proportional to your stake, for only 35 billion USD you could effectively gain control of (on average) over 50% of validation slots?

That's not prohibitively expensive for a government and probably even affordable for an international bank.

So it's currently inefficient, ecologically harmful and vulnerable to take over? What the hell?
 
Last edited:

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,556
So currently the Ethereum network is still proof of work based, and at the same time, since validators are chosen randomly and the number of nodes you control are proportional to your stake, for only 35 billion USD you could effectively gain control of (on average) over 50% of validation slots?

That's not prohibitively expensive for a government and probably even affordable for an international bank.

So it's currently inefficient, ecologically harmful and vulnerable to take over? What the hell?
What, no? The 35 billion is just the current test net to prepare for the PoS switch. Not Ethereum in its entirety.

A blockchain is either or PoS or PoW. PoW is mining. PoS is staking. Currently Ethereum is preparing to switch from PoW to PoS. They prepared a test net for this switch. The test net, before any PoS is active, is worth 35 billion USD. Before the full switch from PoW to PoS happens, all the people that are currently working on securing the actual mainnet Ethereum still have to be added to the pool.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
What, no? The 35 billion is just the current test net to prepare for the PoS switch. Not Ethereum in its entirety.

A blockchain is either or PoS or PoW. PoW is mining. PoS is staking. Currently Ethereum is preparing to switch from PoW to PoS. They prepared a test net for this switch. The test net, before any PoS is active, is worth 35 billion USD. Before the full switch from PoW to PoS happens, all the people that are currently working on securing the actual mainnet Ethereum still have to be added to the pool.
Thank you for the clarification.
The technicalities of transitioning a Blockchain from PoW to PoS are admittedly above my head.

It still looks like PoS is less immune to centralization than PoW, since if you own 50+% of the stake there's nothing stopping you from subtly prioritizing transactions that (directly or indirectly) keep 50+% of the stake in your hands. In PoW, the constantly rising mining difficulty was still something you had no control over even if you owned most of the nodes. If I'm understanding correctly.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,556
Thank you for the clarification.
The technicalities of transitioning a Blockchain from PoW to PoS are admittedly above my head.

It still looks like PoS is less immune to centralization than PoW, since if you own 50+% of the stake there's nothing stopping you from subtly prioritizing transactions that (directly or indirectly) keep 50+% of the stake in your hands. In PoW, the constantly rising mining difficulty was still something you had no control over even if you owned most of the nodes. If I'm understanding correctly.
Sort of. In theory you could buy so many mining rigs that you also control most of the PoW in Bitcoin, but you'd also have to be very rich for that.

I'm guessing it's a bit of game theory. The rising prices of mining rigs and mining makes the rich gets richer since it's very difficult to get your foot in the door and after a while with Bitcoin being worth so much, it's a cascading effect of the rich getting richer and gaining more control over the network.

While with PoS, the barrier is set relatively low to create a node, so in the beginning it may be easier to gain 50% of all the nodes if you're willing to throw alot of money into a pit but in time, more and more nodes will spring up, making it more difficult to actually get to a 50% majority.

The idea is that PoW makes a system more centralized as time goes on because the money gets reinvested in more mining rigs by the same people each time and it's nigh impossible in current circumstances to start mining succesfully without a big investment in resources and that PoS makes a system more decentralized as time goes on since the low barrier and decent return rates will keep attracting more new people in the future.

We'll see how it plays out.
 

Deleted member 9207

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,841
Even though NFTs as a mechanism for demonstrating ownership may have a real opportunity to fix some real world issues, we're years away from the tech being useful. Right now it's basically a scam.
 

mattiewheels

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,107
When are folks going to realize that nobody needs a crash course on NFTs and that people are making fun of them (and their evangelists) with all of the requisite knowledge? The narrative that if somebody makes fun of NFTs means that they don't understand them is an extremely old bit that's not rooted in reality. Stop acting like you're on the avant-garde of tech and that we need a lesson lol
Half the people in here have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this news means, though.