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Deleted member 12790

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Are the GameGear and Master System versions of these games not the same? I thought that they were interchangeable.

The Game Gear version of Sonic 1 is a later revision than the Sega Master System version. You can almost treat the SMS version like a prototype. This manifests in lots, and lots of ways throughout the game. Some of these changes are minor, like Green Hill Zone having new art for warning signs to account for the lower resolution, or Sonic's sprite being different between the SMS and GG versions, while other changes are drastic, like Labyrinth Zone featuring an entirely different level layout to the point of it being an entirely different zone, or all the special stages being 100% different. There are also QoL changes in the GG version, like how Jungle Zone Act 2 can scroll backwards down, where in the SMS version, falling to the bottom of the screen meant instant death.

There are lots and lots of differences between the 8-bit versions of Sonic 2, as well.
 

Soul Skater

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Oct 25, 2017
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tumblr_inline_p1brmcd9Dk1rr08jv_500.jpg
 

IronicSonic

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Those are great arguments but Sonic 1 16 bit was groundbreaking because its fast paced pinball physics gameplay perfectly executed.

Sonic 1 8 bits was a great "normal" platformer If you know what I mean
 

~Fake

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Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit).


tenor.gif


I love Sonic 1 for Master System so much. Bonus stages plus a very better good ending unlike the Mega Drive counterpart. For those who don't know
If you get all the emeralds, Sonic use then to shutdown the brain zone and remove the factory who is polued the island

Best gif. Thx OP. I love seeing this ending every time I beat.
uPAFRZg.gif

And the music is hyper nostaugic. For real, I can't find so much nostaugic melody than Sonic 1 8-bits in that year. And those final act fortress and getting up until reach fortress is so good.
Other think is a fact:
Sonic 1-8bits and Sonic 2-8bits are very hard games unlike their mega drive version. Trying to beat a boss without rings is challenge.


I really praying for Taxman use more Sonic 8-bits zones like The Brigde zone and The Forest zone.
 
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Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,919
I definitely think the Master System Sonic games are under appreciated. I really liked both Sonic 1 and 2 on Master System. 2 is a bit more frustrating, but still has plenty of interesting ideas. I played these games for a couple of years before finally getting a Mega Drive.

Do I think they are better than the Mega Drive games? No, but I appreciate the well thought out OP that goes into detail.

On a related note, I always preferred the Master System version of Castle of Illusion to the Mega Drive version. Again very different games!
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,401
Columbus, OH
I mean that why play sonic 1 when 2, 3, CD, and Mania exist. It created the formula but its been expanded on so well its pointless to play again my eyes. Same with Mario 1, which I know will get me that sweet heat.

I don't disagree that some of the later sonic games are better (3 & Knuckles, Sonic CD and Mania) but I think it's a better game than 2. The spindash feels unbalanced and breaks the need to maintain momentum in many zones, lots more brainless boosting sections with reduced platform hazards, worse music, less consistent themeing and level design, etc. for as much shit as labyrinth zone gets, metropolis zone is much worse and longer. the final bosses are dope as hell though.

with regards to Mario 1, i love how pared down it is and how it focuses on the simple momentum and jumps. i'd take it over SMW, which by comparison is hazardless and the vertical space afforded allows you to just break the game with the cape.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,571
Haven't played it, but that doesn't sound like a very hard feat to pull off.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 29, 2017
15,068
Pennsylvania
Has there ever been a version of Sonic 1 based on the Mega Drive/Genesis version that has those story touches/world map? I think that would be my favorite version.
 

RetroCCN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
901
MS/GG Sonic 1 is a nifty 8-bit platformer and certainly a much better game than the other 8-bit Sonics. But I definitely wouldn't put it above the Genesis game. As stated by others, the whole appeal of Sonic to me is the whole "pinball platformer" aspect as well as the momentum based gameplay. I do think that there are moments where the 8-bit game tries its best to approximate both of these as well as it can, but overall it just doesn't measure up to its older brother.
 

Deleted member 12790

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Has there ever been a version of Sonic 1 based on the Mega Drive/Genesis version that has those story touches/world map? I think that would be my favorite version.

It is very, very, very likely (as in, I'm 99.99% sure of this, I'm just waiting for a specific dump to come out (which has been found) to be able to present as absolute proof) that the 8-bit Sonic 1 port is based off of a very early version of Sonic 1 for the Genesis. What is very likely to have happened is that, once Sonic Team had stopped iterating on core gameplay and level tropes (i.e. after their initial CES appearance with the non-interactive demo), they likely had a meeting with Ancient to get on the same page then didn't communicate after. Between that period where Sonic Team met with Ancient to present what they thought Sonic 1 would be, and when Sonic 1 on the Genesis ultimately released, a number of changes occured that didn't get reflected in the 8-bit port.

So when you look at the 8-bit version of Sonic 1, you are looking at pretty much a split timeline of development. Lots of things in the 8-bit Sonic 1 port resemble parts of the unseen prototypes of the 16-bit version of Sonic 1. A repost of an old topic with a little bit more info:

First - Bridge Zone contains the Yadorin badnik. We know that this badnik was originally supposed to be in Marble Zone. Similarly, Sky Base Zone contains both Bomb, and the special version of Unidus from Labryinth Zone which does not shoot it's spikes - both enemies from Star Light Zone. Now, the special stage in Sonic SMS doesn't contain any badniks, but Spring Yard Zone in Sonic MD recycles most of it's badniks save for Arma.

Second - The Special Stage in Sonic SMS is largely useless. It exists only to give continues. In Sonic MD, the special stage is there to give you chaos emeralds, but since there are emeralds in the stages in Sonic SMS, it renders the Special Stage unnecessary. Now, the Special Stage contains a lot of unique gimmicks which are similar to Spring Yard Zone - most noticeably the bumpers. These appear only in the special stages in Sonic SMS. My personal belief is that they were originally coded for spring yard zone, and reused later for unknown reasons.

Third - the art of the zones are very similar to existing zones, as are their tropes. Bridge Zone obviously is the most different, but a simple change in the palette makes the zone look a lot like Marble Zone:

marblezoneSMS.png

son1_05.gif


Bridge Zone and Marble Zone also share similar objects, such as this platform:

platform.png

platform2.png


Perhaps more obvious is the similarities between the special stage and spring yard zone:

son1_26.gif


son1_25.gif


Obviously the Special Stage features what is largely considered the defining feature of Spring Yard Zone - the bumpers. But at first glance it seems to share little else in common with the final Spring Yard Zone. The background is completely different, especially... until you compare it to sparkling zone:

sparkling2.gif


Suddenly the two zones look remarkably similar, especially the background, which features the same dark shade of blue and sparkling stars.

Lastly, we have Sky Base Zone, which borrows a lot from Star Light Zone's industrial highway motif. First, you'll notice that SLZ's yellow-and-black caution color scheme is copied a lot:

caution.png

caution2.png


That yellow-on-black design is used quite a bit in both stages. The main pattern in the level - industrial squares with lots of rebarbs sticking out, is also used in both zones:

industrial.png

industrial2.png

It's a bit harder to see because of the flashing palette in act 1 of Sky Base Zone, but the structures are incredibly similar. Even random objects in the background are similar, like these glowing lights and cones:

cones.png

cones2.png



Now, even though it's included, I've always felt that labyrinth Zone's background in Sonic SMS was similar to Labyrinth Zone's background in the Sonic beta, with lots of black and smoothly blended sections of background:

son1_13.gif


LZ-NewBG3.jpg


Fouth - Sonic sings in the ending, and the title screen is black. This is the most obvious similarity, since we know both were a staple of early versions of the game. Magazine scans have shown that early versions of Sonic MD had a title screen similar to Sonic SMS:

Sonic_The_Hedgehog_SMS_ScreenShot1j.gif

S1TitleBlack.png


and, more interesting, we know that at one point very late in development, Sonic MD had a robust sound test mode featuring a fully animated band. Concept art shows that Sonic was the singer, and we know this was removed extremely late in development to make room for the "sega" soundbyte:

220px-Sonicband.jpg

Sonic SMS's ending shows Sonic, fully animated, "singing" the end theme song. I've said many times, I believe this is the last remaining piece of that soundtest mode:
SonicSing.png
 

Deleted member 12790

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Want bad flashbacks? Try farming lives on Green Hill only to lose them at the boss stage. Note, the boss stage is harder than the boss itself.

if you just hold right on every single spring segment in act 3, you will never miss them. Once you hit the first ramp, just don't let go of right, and you'll never, ever fail that segment.
 

Lork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
844
Not with those physics it isn't. It's been a long time since I played Sonic 1 SMS (and gave up halfway through) so I could be confusing my memories of the stages with another SMS/GG Sonic game, but I remember the level design being awful, just chock full of obnoxious death pits, which are the bane of good Sonic level design.
 
Last edited:

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,068
Pennsylvania
It is very, very, very likely (as in, I'm 99.99% sure of this, I'm just waiting for a specific dump to come out (which has been found) to be able to present as absolute proof) that the 8-bit Sonic 1 port is based off of a very early version of Sonic 1 for the Genesis. What is very likely to have happened is that, once Sonic Team had stopped iterating on core gameplay and level tropes (i.e. after their initial CES appearance with the non-interactive demo), they likely had a meeting with Ancient to get on the same page then didn't communicate after. Between that period where Sonic Team met with Ancient to present what they thought Sonic 1 would be, and when Sonic 1 on the Genesis ultimately released, a number of changes occured that didn't get reflected in the 8-bit port.

So when you look at the 8-bit version of Sonic 1, you are looking at pretty much a split timeline of development. Lots of things in the 8-bit Sonic 1 port resemble parts of the unseen prototypes of the 16-bit version of Sonic 1. A repost of an old topic with a little bit more info:

First - Bridge Zone contains the Yadorin badnik. We know that this badnik was originally supposed to be in Marble Zone. Similarly, Sky Base Zone contains both Bomb, and the special version of Unidus from Labryinth Zone which does not shoot it's spikes - both enemies from Star Light Zone. Now, the special stage in Sonic SMS doesn't contain any badniks, but Spring Yard Zone in Sonic MD recycles most of it's badniks save for Arma.

Second - The Special Stage in Sonic SMS is largely useless. It exists only to give continues. In Sonic MD, the special stage is there to give you chaos emeralds, but since there are emeralds in the stages in Sonic SMS, it renders the Special Stage unnecessary. Now, the Special Stage contains a lot of unique gimmicks which are similar to Spring Yard Zone - most noticeably the bumpers. These appear only in the special stages in Sonic SMS. My personal belief is that they were originally coded for spring yard zone, and reused later for unknown reasons.

Third - the art of the zones are very similar to existing zones, as are their tropes. Bridge Zone obviously is the most different, but a simple change in the palette makes the zone look a lot like Marble Zone:

marblezoneSMS.png

son1_05.gif


Bridge Zone and Marble Zone also share similar objects, such as this platform:

platform.png

platform2.png


Perhaps more obvious is the similarities between the special stage and spring yard zone:

son1_26.gif


son1_25.gif


Obviously the Special Stage features what is largely considered the defining feature of Spring Yard Zone - the bumpers. But at first glance it seems to share little else in common with the final Spring Yard Zone. The background is completely different, especially... until you compare it to sparkling zone:

sparkling2.gif


Suddenly the two zones look remarkably similar, especially the background, which features the same dark shade of blue and sparkling stars.

Lastly, we have Sky Base Zone, which borrows a lot from Star Light Zone's industrial highway motif. First, you'll notice that SLZ's yellow-and-black caution color scheme is copied a lot:

caution.png

caution2.png


That yellow-on-black design is used quite a bit in both stages. The main pattern in the level - industrial squares with lots of rebarbs sticking out, is also used in both zones:

industrial.png

industrial2.png

It's a bit harder to see because of the flashing palette in act 1 of Sky Base Zone, but the structures are incredibly similar. Even random objects in the background are similar, like these glowing lights and cones:

cones.png

cones2.png



Now, even though it's included, I've always felt that labyrinth Zone's background in Sonic SMS was similar to Labyrinth Zone's background in the Sonic beta, with lots of black and smoothly blended sections of background:

son1_13.gif


LZ-NewBG3.jpg


Fouth - Sonic sings in the ending, and the title screen is black. This is the most obvious similarity, since we know both were a staple of early versions of the game. Magazine scans have shown that early versions of Sonic MD had a title screen similar to Sonic SMS:

Sonic_The_Hedgehog_SMS_ScreenShot1j.gif

S1TitleBlack.png


and, more interesting, we know that at one point very late in development, Sonic MD had a robust sound test mode featuring a fully animated band. Concept art shows that Sonic was the singer, and we know this was removed extremely late in development to make room for the "sega" soundbyte:

220px-Sonicband.jpg

Sonic SMS's ending shows Sonic, fully animated, "singing" the end theme song. I've said many times, I believe this is the last remaining piece of that soundtest mode:
SonicSing.png
Very interesting, your prowess shines bright Krejlooc!
 

Deleted member 12790

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Very interesting, your prowess shines bright Krejlooc!

Also, just to add, the ending to the 16-bit version of Sonic 1 is nearly identical to the 8-bit version of Sonic 1. Only difference is Sonic delivers the last hit to Robotnik fleeing in Scrap Brain Zone instead of Green Hill Zone, and it doesn't show the emeralds affecting the entire map (because there is no map). Otherwise, it's the same ending:

 

JayCB64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,005
Wales
You are correct, good sir. I go back and play Sonic on the Master System to completion fairly often, but if I'm hankering for a Mega Drive Sonic, I skip straight to Sonic 2.
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,085
I love the 8-Bit Sonic Games (well, the main 4), and think they're pretty underrated and top tier 8-bit games. Superior to the 16-bit counterparts however they are not.
 

Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,919
It is very, very, very likely (as in, I'm 99.99% sure of this, I'm just waiting for a specific dump to come out (which has been found) to be able to present as absolute proof) that the 8-bit Sonic 1 port is based off of a very early version of Sonic 1 for the Genesis. What is very likely to have happened is that, once Sonic Team had stopped iterating on core gameplay and level tropes (i.e. after their initial CES appearance with the non-interactive demo), they likely had a meeting with Ancient to get on the same page then didn't communicate after. Between that period where Sonic Team met with Ancient to present what they thought Sonic 1 would be, and when Sonic 1 on the Genesis ultimately released, a number of changes occured that didn't get reflected in the 8-bit port.

This is fascinating stuff, thank you!

I really miss the days where different versions of games could be radically different. There were so many interesting differences in the early - mid 90's.
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
Great post, but I cannot agree. Sonic 1 16 bit is a genuinely unique masterpiece whereas the 8 bit rendition is just a really high quality platformer. Bridge Zone is one of my all-time favorite Sonic songs though.

Anyone interested in playing Sonic 1 8 bit for the first time PLEASE play the Master System version. The screen space makes all of the difference in the world, especially during a certain waterfall segment.
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
It is very, very, very likely (as in, I'm 99.99% sure of this, I'm just waiting for a specific dump to come out (which has been found) to be able to present as absolute proof) that the 8-bit Sonic 1 port is based off of a very early version of Sonic 1 for the Genesis. What is very likely to have happened is that, once Sonic Team had stopped iterating on core gameplay and level tropes (i.e. after their initial CES appearance with the non-interactive demo), they likely had a meeting with Ancient to get on the same page then didn't communicate after. Between that period where Sonic Team met with Ancient to present what they thought Sonic 1 would be, and when Sonic 1 on the Genesis ultimately released, a number of changes occured that didn't get reflected in the 8-bit port.

So when you look at the 8-bit version of Sonic 1, you are looking at pretty much a split timeline of development. Lots of things in the 8-bit Sonic 1 port resemble parts of the unseen prototypes of the 16-bit version of Sonic 1. A repost of an old topic with a little bit more info:
This is really cool, and makes me want to replay Sonic 1 MS (which I haven't played in... uh... probably 18 years?)
 

Deleted member 12790

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This is really cool, and makes me want to replay Sonic 1 MS (which I haven't played in... uh... probably 18 years?)

There is more, too, I just hit the main beats. You can see other indications that the 8-bit version of Sonic 1 is based off of early Sonic 16-bit discussions, like the spirte of Sonic singing at the end is Sky blue, which matches the JPN Sega logo. Sonic was originally sky blue specifically to match the color of the JPN sega logo, but he wound up clashing with backgrounds in the game, so later in development they changed his color to Cobalt to match the US Sega logo.

Sega1.jpeg


segasonic.jpg


The color of Sonic at the end of the 8-bit version of Sonic 1 is reflecting a very early design for Sonic.
 

Deleted member 5745

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Bridge Zone was pretty good but I have to disagree. Chalk it up to personal taste but I wasn't a fan of 8-bit Sonic 1.
 

Deleted member 12790

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This is fascinating stuff, thank you!

I really miss the days where different versions of games could be radically different. There were so many interesting differences in the early - mid 90's.

In case it hasn't been hammered enough here, there are lots and lots of differences between the two 8-bit versions of Sonic 2 as well. The 8-bit version of Sonic 2 is one of the weirdest games in the entire series, it has bunch of really, really weird stuff in it. It's got a lot of strange connections to Sonic CD, for example. People have already mentioned how Sonic CD's theme, You can do anything, appears in Sonic 2 on the Master System:





Even weirder, the 8-bit Sonic 2 level title cards feature Sonic CD sprites:

sonic-the-hedgehog-2-master-system5.jpg


The Sonic sprites in those small level pictures are specifically from Sonic CD. There are lots of very small sprite changes between Sonic 1 and Sonic CD, and going through all the title cards reveals the sprites specifically come from Sonic CD. It's also weird how Tails has a full sprite sheet in the game that only gets used in the good ending, which suggests to most that Tails was supposed to be playable originally.

The opening animation for Sonic 2 actually features art from a cut level:

0302.gif


That white on grey zone is an early zone that was shown in magazine screenshots, which has since been found to be an early CES autoscrolling demo level:

Sonic2AutoDemo_GG_2.png


Crystal Egg Zone has a bunch of weird power ups that are obscured by foreground layers, and when you remove them, you see they are bizarre things like this:

S2monitors1.png


Anywho, Sonic 2 on the SMS and Sonic 2 on the Game Gear are radically different games. Very clearly based off of the same thing, but the SMS version is just so much better and easier to play. One could fill an entire topic with the small differences between the two ports, none of which alone sound like a major change, but when put all together it effectively turns a pretty broken, bad game into a pretty good, genuinely enjoyable game.
 

Poimandres

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Oct 26, 2017
6,919
Anywho, Sonic 2 on the SMS and Sonic 2 on the Game Gear are radically different games. Very clearly based off of the same thing, but the SMS version is just so much better and easier to play. One could fill an entire topic with the small differences between the two ports, none of which alone sound like a major change, but when put all together it effectively turns a pretty broken, bad game into a pretty good, genuinely enjoyable game.

I had no idea that the Master System and Game Gear versions were so different! I knew that the Game Gear version had a narrower field of view, because of people always going on about the pit boss. But, I thought that's where the differences started and ended.

I actually have the Game Gear cart lying around somewhere, but never actually played it. I grew up with the Master System games.
 

Deleted member 12790

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I had no idea that the Master System and Game Gear versions were so different! I knew that the Game Gear version had a narrower field of view, because of people always going on about the pit boss. But, I thought that's where the differences started and ended.

I actually have the Game Gear cart lying around somewhere, but never actually played it. I grew up with the Master System games.

That pit boss is a very good example of how a bunch of really small changes drastically changes the experience. Everybody obviously notices that the Sega Master System version has a wider field of view, which makes seeing the balls come earlier easier and giving you way more time to react. But beyond that mere change, the boss battle itself actually works differently:





If you pay attention, the game gear boss battle is actually harder on top of having more limited viewing space. The balls actually bounce in 3 different patterns -- a low pattern, where the best option is to jump over the balls, a medium option where you have to jump with slightly different timing, and a high bounce pattern where the best option is to actually run under the ball. And these patterns are random, the game uses the PRNG to determine each ball's behavior, so there is no pattern. This makes dodging the balls in the first place way, way, way harder. In the Master System version, the balls exclusively bounce in the low pattern, there is no medium or high pattern, which makes every ball easy to jump over, even without being able to see further. In the SMS version, you never have to press left or right at all to beat the boss, you can beat it just by tapping the jump button at the right time. In the Game Gear version, you pretty much are required to run all around that tiny cramped screen to avoid the balls.

There are sooo many small differences that take a very keen eye to notice, but it really does wind up making the SMS version miles better. It's a good example of how slight tweaks can dramatically change a game. Throughout both, you'll find small examples of level layouts changing, or items moving locations, or enemies changing, or enemy behaviors changing, stuff like that. Green Hills Zone Act 3 on the SMS, for example, removed almost all the spikes, so it's dramatically easier, even if you don't know about the "hold right" trick.

Sonic 2 on the Master System feels much more like Sonic 1 in terms of difficulty and being fair to the player. Sonic 2 on the game gear -- which incidentally is the version I grew up with and still beat back in the day, is much much harder. So much harder that it's honestly not very much fun to play.
 
Last edited:

Phil32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,570
Holy moly. I wasn't aware of how good Sonic 1's 8-bit version was--didn't even consider playing it before because I thought it was considered grossly inferior--but from your detailed thoughts and description, I really need to play it! Thanks Mama Robotnik and great topic!
 

Deleted member 12790

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To perhaps further drive home the point about how weird Sonic 2 8-bit is, and how divergent they can be, the game gear version of Sonic 2 doesn't have the super sneakers power up anywhere in the game. It's something strange, because Sonic 1 on the Game Gear and SMS did, but it's like a power up they removed as time went on in Sonic 2. By contrast, the Sega Master System version of Sonic 2 DOES feature the Sneaker power up - Once, in a very obscure location in Aqua Lake Zone Act 2. Using it in fact plays a unique song not heard anywhere else in any other sonic game:



There is also a secret in Sky High Zone Act 1 that is so bizarre I don't really know how to explain it.



I've known about these birds since I was little, but absolutely nobody knows why they are there in that specific spot in the zone or what they mean or why they appear. Just bizarre shit.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Agree, Sonic 1 8-bit is really great.

Mega Drive has much, much better sound and music though, but that's true in general for quality MD sountracks.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 27, 2017
21,308
Sonic 2 for the Game Gear was the first Sonic game I played, and I didn't like it one bit. Then again, I'm terrible at old 2D Sonic games.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
JP
I mean, I like both. And I don't really like Sonic, but the very first game (both versions) feels more like a traditional platformer so I like it.
 

Deleted member 46641

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I mean Sonic for the master system feels more comfortable in its shoes - it has more platforming and doesn't feel as stocatto.

That having been said, the only thing making Sonic 1 an OK game in the first place was the style and the Master System version lacks that so I don't agree.
 

Lynd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,450
Absolutely not, and I don't mind the 8 bit version.. Control wise alone it feels no where near as good.