Your social anxiety is not the fault of how women actually perceive you, in that case, so I'm not sure why you personally feel so aggrieved.
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What if men had a curfew? [hypothetical thought exercise, not literal]
- Thread starter Dan Thunder
- Start date
Your social anxiety is not the fault of how women actually perceive you, in that case, so I'm not sure why you personally feel so aggrieved.
See this is what is wrong with some of you....no need to get like that. I'm not trying to be your enemy, like why be like that?
No thats a batshit idea. Laws on sexual assault need to be strictly enforced,strengthened and men need to be educated on appropriate behaviour toward women.
The reality is that we're talking about two issues—the reality of being a woman out late at night and victimization stats, and the feeling of being a woman out late at night.
The sad truth is if you're afraid of being raped, your own partner or someone you know is more likely to be the perp than the shadowy guy on the street. And likewise that feeling is subject to our own biases—so a woman might be more afraid walking about in a black neighborhood than a white one, even if the victimization chances when controlled for other factors have nothing to do with race.
So trying to deal with the problem has to thread the needle with understanding the context women face in public and that reality does not align with people's fears and biases either.
Reminds me of the shit Lena Dunham got for intimating black guys were more likely to catcall her.
Consider a man uttering the following statements:
"I wish there were no women."
"I wish all women had to wear leashes and collars."
Which comes off as worse?
I never said or believe this at all. I was merely commenting on how shitty it is that men who are scumbags have ruined it for the rest of us. I don't blame women for being apprehensive towards me I'm just saying the whole thing makes me sad.
Is that what I said? I said the idea that this wouldn't apply to major cities across the world is ridiculous. I encourage you, ask some women about this and see what their response is.
It's just dumb deflective none sense to make this about the US. This is not an America problem.
And yes, I have been out in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc etc several times. Just because you see women out at night that doesn't mean they harbour zero fears or anxiety.
Tell me, what percentage of violent crimes in your country are committed by women?
Arguing with stats can get pretty bad pretty fast. Just saying.
Not saying it is. All I'm merely offering is how I personally feel about the whole situation. I realize women have very good reasons to be afraid of me but it still doesn't make me feel any less awful.
I understand what they're trying to get at,but it would be impossible to implement.
This reminds me of something similar I've read https://indianexpress.com/article/t...-being-sexually-assaulted-viral-list-5383285/
Where we take extra precautions over men.
Although I would argue it's not accurate. Men, especially poc, have to do this too I imagine.
Edit: added image
I read the whole list as well as the article. I do every single one of those things when I go out to do something. In San Antonio I used to do a mental checklist of those things on the list because I didn't live in the best of neighborhoods save for locking the doors when I get in the car or avoiding elevators with men. Hell even now I don't do many of those things out in West Texas because of wildlife at night vs when I feared possibly getting mugged in the city.
Yeah I get the article's point of bringing attention to things women have to deal with and what a quality of life change it could potentially be; but as far as hypotheticals go in this particular situation its pretty stupid and most likely could have been worded better.
?
I put you or men. You did seem to find the concept at hand offensive.
It didn't need to. It opened a conversation, gave a voice for many women to give their input on how they feel and the numerous things they have to consider aside from most men on a day to day basis. It allows for better understanding for a lot of people, toward things they may not have been aware of. That is beneficial.
This is why you're missing the point. It's literally not about the men in the discussion, at all. It's not about me, or any single guy and what they might or might not do. It's a question posed to give women an opening to explain the things they have to typically consider or refrain from doing on a day to day basis.
It's amazing to me that people aren't understanding the thought experiment here.
To rephrase it, think of it as "What would you do differently if you never had to worry about a man harming you?"
To rephrase it, think of it as "What would you do differently if you never had to worry about a man harming you?"
You're right, no need for the extra snark. Apologies. I blame this thread :|
"In my own myopic personal experience as a man, I've never had to worry about that. Whats the problem here?"
I guess what I'm trying to do is depersonalize it for you.
Women aren't afraid of you. Many women feel an understandable anxiety when going out alone at night that is borne by previous experience and can prove mentally exhausting. Women may avoid confrontations with you, no matter how casual, not because they're afraid of you but because that's easier than the potential that you may harass or otherwise harm them mentally or physically. This avoidance actually has nothing to do with you personally and has everything to do with gender dynamics out of your control.
So you have a few options. You can be personally aggrieved and worry about these perceptions, or you can understand their existence and where they come from and continue to just be an okay dude who won't ever be mentioned in future women's stories about walking alone at night.
Or you can work to reverse gender dynamics by helping to educate young men so that the cycle of anxiety grinds to a halt.
Even if there was a curfew many predators would break the law anyway and still be outside.
How are you still managing to evade the point?
Why would we be complaining about the thought experiment itself?
I get what you were actually saying, I just needed a little brevity.
I think that's because most of us don't think it's poorly framed.
Not sure what else you're expecting people to say. I thought the object of the thought experiment was to listen? Well, I read the testimonies, and now the only thing I can really add is that the wording of this hypothetical is to its own detriment."That's cute and all but as a guy let's talk about how this makes me feel bad"
"Yeh cool, but let's discuss the wording of the question"
I don't know, you definitely read it so why don't you tell us?
How would they enforce this law? Police stationed on every block?
What happens to people who work at night, have weird shifts or absolutely need to go out?
This is a stupid solution for a serious problem. It honestly sounds dystopian.
What happens to people who work at night, have weird shifts or absolutely need to go out?
This is a stupid solution for a serious problem. It honestly sounds dystopian.
I think the funny part is that this curfew would only guarantee that every man you see at night is literally a criminal and probably a mugger/rapist. The person who made this unintentionally made a scenario where the fear of seeing a man at night is completely rational (not that it isn't already), but also much much larger.
Yeah this is a pretty bad thought experiment. I don't think any women should be offended when people call it shit because it is. I get the point of it (now), but I think it could've been done without being so edgey. It wasn't necessarily asking for this response, but you shouldn't be suprised now you've received it.
It's not really worth going to bat for the thought experiment or arguing over semantics. The point is where the power lies. Women feel constantly fearful of men. It's a shame this is how that's being expressed.
Yeah this is a pretty bad thought experiment. I don't think any women should be offended when people call it shit because it is. I get the point of it (now), but I think it could've been done without being so edgey. It wasn't necessarily asking for this response, but you shouldn't be suprised now you've received it.
It's not really worth going to bat for the thought experiment or arguing over semantics. The point is where the power lies. Women feel constantly fearful of men. It's a shame this is how that's being expressed.
The recent topic that went into discussing this was interesting as the discussion continued to focus on what women felt, the differences in consideration that they have when around and about (and how illuminating certain ones were for men), and conversations people had had with their partners. Could be interesting points of discussion?
interesting discussion. Definitely makes you see how difficult it can be being a woman in the world.
It's the kind of ridiculous shit you see in alt-right memes.
It certainly didn't dissuade multiple women from sharing their stories on Twitter... which I assume was the intention.
So in no way was it detrimental.
So you definitely didn't read anything.
Care to make an actual comparison to one of the women's stories to an alt right meme?
You make good points. I tend to internalize shit more than I probably should.
Yup, it's important to discuss the inherent racial bias in a thought experiment like this.
Reversing the genders is disingenuous because it's completely ignoring the purpose of the hypothetical. I get what you are saying but I still think you are missing the point.
But it obviously failed to do so. Like I said before, why put those thought experiments in the most outrageous ways possible? The only thing you create with this is stupid controversy.
I mean, really, a more realistic thought experiment, if you want to minimize sexual violence against women and people in general would be to forcefully separate any male relative from a child.
So we can all think about that, but it still will enrage the vast majority of fathers, especially single fathers, and the discussion will go to shit.
Look, such thought experiments are only valid if people who actually harass victims start to think. The Problem is, the only People who care and answer to such things are mostly those who are NOT harassing and abusing women, and they feel a bit miffed then.
I mean, look, does anyone here REALLY expect serial harassers and rapists to post on this board and engage in those topics and argue against them?
From history, the actual deviants who were on the old place wholeheartedly agreed with every notion about men being the blight of existence and look what happened. I don't think people who state some slight disagreement with a thought experiment that is poorly thought out and most certainly will not produce empathy, but controversy are bad people by definition.
Sometimes you have to look at a thought experiment and think hard about what this likely will produce. Because people will come to that from their own personal places and experiences, and will react to that in a way they think is honest.
Ok so like for the 15h fucking time, it's not a hypothetical, it's not even really a "thought experiment" it was a framing to get women to share the things they currently miss out on doing, or avoid doing because of concerns for their safety, it was to highlight that a lot of those things are things many men take for granted and don't think twice about not doing. It was to highlight simple things women wish theey could do a night but don't/can't.
I understand what they're trying to get at,but it would be impossible to implement.
This reminds me of something similar I've read https://indianexpress.com/article/t...-being-sexually-assaulted-viral-list-5383285/
Where we take extra precautions over men.
Although I would argue it's not accurate. Men, especially poc, have to do this too I imagine.
Edit: added image
I do so many of those things on the right lol.
User Warned: Inflammatory Drive-by Post
What if tacos were sandwiches?
Edit :
Might be because I'm black. But I definitely don't like going outside at night when I'm in the USA either. But not always for the same reasons as a woman might not want to go out at night.
Edit: can someone explain how this was "inflammatory"?
Edit :
Might be because I'm black. But I definitely don't like going outside at night when I'm in the USA either. But not always for the same reasons as a woman might not want to go out at night.
Edit: can someone explain how this was "inflammatory"?
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Actually that makes me support a curfew more. If men have a curfew to lower sexual assaults, the people attempt to sexually harass/assault people would stand out.
You're operating on the assumption that if it was framed just right all of a sudden all these men would become sympathetic and willing to partake in the discussion, you're inherently assuming the framework is the issue and not that the real issue is that all these discussions fail because ultimately men don;t actually want to listen to or have these discussions...