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Streets of Rage 4 Announced (Lizardcube, Guard Crush Games and DotEmu)
- Thread starter Dancrane212
- Start date
Man those backrounds are crazy good. Then I see Blaze's walking animation and I cringe so bad. Why does she walk like she has a stick up her ass?
To be fair, Shank looks super duper flashy like what most semi sane people consider the look. That and Castle Crasher. There's a certain cheapness to the animation that goes with it. Sor4 has never elicited that reaction with me.
I'm in a weird position here. I want to play the game yesterday, but I want them to take as much time as they need to polish it to perfection.
Is this going to be Co-op online or just local? :: Streets of Rage 4 General Discussions
Would love to see this online co-op
That's a critical blow if this doesn't have online. Again, I just don't understand this current trend with beat 'em ups and run 'n gunners, when last gen I was playing Castle Crashers, Guardian Heroes HD, Chronicles of Mystara, Metal Slug X, Hard Corps Uprising, Gunstar Heroes, Golden Axe 1-3, and yes, Streets of Rage 1-3 online. I'll take a delay in a heartbeat if that's what's going to take to implement, because I can't comprehend how they can hand-wave such a crucial feature. It's 2020, not 1991, and couch co--op isn't feasible for many of us anymore.Is this going to be Co-op online or just local? :: Streets of Rage 4 General Discussions
Would love to see this online co-opsteamcommunity.com
So, this is backwards to the argument I've made for years. I edited your post to let people know how frustrating it is with the reverse argument.
I don't understand your argument, because SoR4 should have both, local and online play. Co-op is the best element of beat 'em ups, so it should never be one or the other, and all those games I mentioned did have both last gen.
Damn, this is a deal breaker for me. Really wanted to play with friends online some sweet Co-op.
The online play in the majority of those games was terrible. Especially the emulated rereleases. Early Sega Vintage SOR2 had an awful case of delay + host advantage problems for player 2, and that was the norm for most of the other games that I tried.
While I'd appreciate it if effort was actually put into fixing online functionality in future releases, I'm also hard-pressed to feel as if anything of value would be lost if they didn't try anything at all.
Tossing it out there, the first day of PAX East, I have an appointment to check out SoR4. I have a few things I want to know/find out about, but I'm willing to entertain some other questions on stuff you want to know.
So toss em to me via PM.
So toss em to me via PM.
Haven't tried it myself but here's what the official page says:
Steam Remote Play official page said:
Yeah I know, but at this rate if it's going for 1st half then it would have to be released by April or May. The last character would have to be announced soon and then they can do a release date.
I'll have to look into it.
This one I do know about, but I also have a group of friends that don't play on the PC.
I disagree. I spent countless hours playing all these games online with randos and friends and family on the 360. Some of my favorite memories of last gen include the crazy amount of laughs I had with my best friend playing Guardian Heroes and its ridiculous story as we achieved getting all the endings. It's how I even got him into Streets of Rage to begin with since he never had played it before (Gunstar Heroes as well.)
So yeah, I don't understand this need in advocating having less features in a game that should have it. Again, it's 2020, so let's not pretend that having online is an insurmountable hurdle. This series has already provided it before, and since this is supposed to be an official title, SoR4 should offer it as well.
I think his point wasn't to not have it but that the same argument also happens in reverse where games of previous generations had couch co-op and we've been losing it, slowly, to online only due to various factors.
Also, saying "the previous titles had it too" is a bit disingenuous since they didn't have it originally and were never programmed for it. The ports we got with online play in the client were just emulated, not ported, and all of the actual game design and programming had been done. To be frank, adding online play to something isn't as easy a feat as you make it seem to be, especially for a small team like this that is already doing their best to get the game done. TBH, I'd rather they spend their time making it work with as few launch bugs as possible, first. They can probably add an online mode later if they have the resources.
I'm not arguing for one or the other, as I already have said, both modes should be provided in co--op centric games.
I don't see what's so disingenuous about stating how modern releases of SoR have online. Both the sole standalone SoR2 release and the vintage collection had it, and I used both of them extensively. Games like Guardian Heroes and Chronicles of Mystera were essentially built from the ground up and had it; and totally new games like Castle Crashers and Hard Corps Uprising had it too. Sorry, but I'm not going to buy into the narrative that all of a sudden online play is now somehow asking for too much for games in this genre. Like I wrote before, I'm completely fine if implementing online co-op results in a delay, or even if it has to be added post launch, but I disagree with everyone that thinks that it isn't a necessary feature.
Because it plays like dogshit.
It shouldn't be too much to ask for competent online play, but I'm so jaded at the results to date in the types of games that I play (mostly fighters and retro) that I just don't care about it anymore.
No, it doesn't. Like I wrote, I played SoR a lot online and had a great time. The only complaint I have with the vintage collection was that there didn't seem to be a way to play mania difficulty with your friends, but very hard was good enough since we weren't playing seriously.
Ok? I don't know why you wouldn't want SoR4 to strive for having a competent online mode over not having one at all though. If it turns out mediocre, just ignore it, but I know I'd use it, regardless.
Do we know who's doing the music? Any classic SoR track remixes in the new game?
Thanks :)
Will SOR4 have any secrets? (like SOR3's Roo)
Is Dotemu/Guard Crash/Lizard Cube working on another Sega IP besides SOR?
Any plan for SOR4 to add online co-op?
There's so much to learn and gleam from that little Documentary. It and the previous ones definitely give some solid insight. The game looks better and better, and I appreciate getting to see how much they actually GET what they're doing.
By now, with the omission of online in SO many games, "indie" or otherwise, it's time we realize some things.
My main concern for SOF4 is for it to be a good game on release. That'll help determine how much more can be added and refined. I'm sure they could have made a "cheaper" looking and playing work, and have hit a larger amount of bullet-points, but man am I happy they've aimed for such an often unexplored style, that they're comfortable in developing. East or West, there's not many devs willing to make hand-crafted art like this anymore.
Looking at the releases of trailers and dotemu docs, it looks like they try not to go any more than 3 months between big news releases. So, maybe within this next 3 month window, we'll get the reveal of a last current character or 2 (which would be shocking), and release?
By now, with the omission of online in SO many games, "indie" or otherwise, it's time we realize some things.
- Bad online doesn't profit a product. It's just a temporary bright spot in a products overall life.
- Good online adds less than people expect. With SO many games out now, games don't have profitable player bases just because of good online.
- GREAT online DOES increase a products life. But takes a lot more work, money, planning, and a specific focus.
- Bad online can actively harm a product, and the negative press can keep people from even playing the game itself.
- Online Play and the systems to support (Lobbies, host migration, determining who'se progress to work off of, how to make MP progress connect to SP, etc) CAN be added later.
- Standards have raised for what "Good" online is (heck, they've raised for everything), but the ability for many a dev to add it hasn't. It still takes development money that could be spent elsewhere making the game better.
- "It's 20XX this is inexcusable" means little. If the dev-tools used, the publisher behind it, or the indie making the game don't have a way to do it well and within budget, it still won't happen.
- Games don't just have online added to them on a whim. Consideration for it can be placed at many points or production, and the entire game's set of decisions (stage length, button responsiveness, gameplay mechanics, solidarity of hit / hurt boxes, mini-games, etc) can shift depending on how multiplayer is offered.
- Releasing a game across multiple platforms seems like a much better spending of resources than barebones online.
- Releasing to multiple platforms makes every aspect of development take even more work.
- Releasing multiple SOLID ports is even MORE work.
- Releasing on PC isn't free and easy just because games are developed on them.
- The gold standard of online now-a-days is cross-play. And that takes a whole new set or resources, generally ending with the pub/dev needing to create and maintain an account system to bridge the varied networks under one new banner. This has to be maintained, and whats the future once popularity and attention wane? Do the works still have P2P, or does the entire online infrastructure just die?
My main concern for SOF4 is for it to be a good game on release. That'll help determine how much more can be added and refined. I'm sure they could have made a "cheaper" looking and playing work, and have hit a larger amount of bullet-points, but man am I happy they've aimed for such an often unexplored style, that they're comfortable in developing. East or West, there's not many devs willing to make hand-crafted art like this anymore.
Listen to the video that brought on this update. Take in how much work the game is, and how much they still have left to do. You're DEFINITELY not going to get a release date until they reveal all characters teased on the title screen. You MIGHT get one when the last is revealed, but even that isn't guarenteed.
Looking at the releases of trailers and dotemu docs, it looks like they try not to go any more than 3 months between big news releases. So, maybe within this next 3 month window, we'll get the reveal of a last current character or 2 (which would be shocking), and release?
Sounds like end of the year then kind of release.....oh well. I got stuff to play while I wait.
Well SoR4 is not going to play better nor have more characters and features than SoR Remake, so my expectations aren't unrealistically high in that regard. Wanting online play though, I absolutely do not see that as being picky, and am flabbergasted with all the excuses that I have been reading. This is NOT a fighting game, and accordingly, I am not demanding a crème de la crème experience, but only that it exist and be be somewhat competent. I'm not oblivious to the notion that it takes money and resources to implement online play, but I fundamentally disagree with anyone, and the developers included, if they believe it shouldn't be a high priority. Set aside an appropriate portion of the budget and collaborate with an outside party and have them do it if it's too much for the internal team to handle, but creating a beat 'em up with no online play at all is something I can't believe everyone here is ok with. The primary fun of this genre revolves almost completely around co-op, so as a player, the game having an online mode should be paramount. To put it bluntly, unless you (and I'm speaking in general) are working on the game and profits are your primary concern, I don't know why anyone would be willing to defend this omission. If planning around online play comes at the cost of the visuals being worse, so be it, or at least that's my mindset. Chances are we're not going to get sequels, regardless, so why not hope for the best possible transient experience, especially since this is supposed to mark SoR's official return after more than 25 years? Now if their plan is to add one later, again, I'm fine with that as well.
If we're talking about fun, well, SoR is my favorite video game franchise of all-time, so if this new entry is up to par, I plan on putting it on my permanent rotation like the other 3. With that said, online co-op is a crucial factor in that happening, and I can't see my dream coming into fruition without it. Maybe most of you guys are ok with a one and done experience, but I want to play with all my friends and family over and over again for years to come.
Frankly, if you think vintage collection SOR2 had acceptable online play, then your standards aren't high enough anyway.
Of course we "should" have competent online play. I'm just not losing any sleep over it, because I do not expect it. And I'm not wasting my time with more trash online implementation in 2020.
I have IRL friends. I participated in (and won) a 16-player SOR2 Duel Mode tournament just a few months ago. I'm good.
Of course we "should" have competent online play. I'm just not losing any sleep over it, because I do not expect it. And I'm not wasting my time with more trash online implementation in 2020.
I have IRL friends. I participated in (and won) a 16-player SOR2 Duel Mode tournament just a few months ago. I'm good.
lol, ok. All I want from an online mode is to be able to play with my friends, not speedrun. The vintage collection provided me that, and I found it infinitely more playable than the Genesis-mini version and its horrendous input lag as a comparison.
People in here are worrying about online play and I am here worrying about features and gameplay features from previous SoR games.
You mean like rolling and star blitzes? I've already given up on those since SoR4 seems like it's going to be SoR2 but with a juggle. If Max is the last character, then I'm going to be spamming his slide like crazy.
Yes those would be nice but I know they are gonna be gone since there's no running. Gotta be exactly like the only game in the series SoR2. But also unlockables like extra characters, story branching paths, alternate bosses and endings, character specific weapon attacks, police attacks, free meter specials shit man I could go on for days. I just want options. Remake has spoiled me.
Same, I'm right there with you an all of those. I'm also really sick with how people like to brush SoR3 under the rug and ignore its gameplay improvements. Remake did what I wanted by building off of it and added loads upon loads of customization and features. Bombergames honestly set the bar way too high.
The lack of quick movement (other than Skate) in SoR2 was acceptable at the time, but is the biggest gameplay weakness of the game in general. SoR3 addresses that problem in several ways which is why they feel much better to play (even if the musical/graphical aesthetics of SoR2 is at a Hall of Fame level). In fact, I gravitated towards Max in SoR2 I think simply because the recovery of his slide allowed superior movement over the rest of the cast despite him being the slowest walker in the game.
Like you, I want Max to be in SoR4 in part to slide around for speed and position if they took generic running out of it.
Upgraded blitz attacks were cool but needed better implementation. Tying 3-button players to a "rich get richer, poor get poorer" point progression system was weird, and the X-button alternatives are arguably just as weird. Would be nice to have a more expanded moveset in SOR4 with a less clunky implementation.
Mobility options I can take or leave, as long as the pacing of the game is decent and enemy capabilities are balanced around the player's. I feel like a lot of people who give SOR3 props for this don't consider anything beyond the surface. All in all, universal run in SOR3 didn't add anything significant.
For that matter, surface-level SOR3 play feels like wet noodle slapping; all of the oomph has been taken out of the punches.
I liked the more strategic use and allowance of life-draining specials though.
Mobility options I can take or leave, as long as the pacing of the game is decent and enemy capabilities are balanced around the player's. I feel like a lot of people who give SOR3 props for this don't consider anything beyond the surface. All in all, universal run in SOR3 didn't add anything significant.
For that matter, surface-level SOR3 play feels like wet noodle slapping; all of the oomph has been taken out of the punches.
I liked the more strategic use and allowance of life-draining specials though.
Yeah, SoR2 is the better package due to superior music and pacing, but gameplay wise, SoR3 does so much to improve upon the formula, which Remake also really takes advantage of. I personally enjoy playing SoR3 on hard even more so than SoR2 on mania because it is so much faster, and I vastly prefer how it handles specials.
And yeah, likewise, my fingers are crossed for Max (or a buff Zan) for the same reasoning as yours. My bet is on some sort of hybrid playstyle between the two even if it ends up being a new character. As long as he has a slide or dash though, I'll be happy.
Well, that's good, though post after these begin to suggest otherwise. I played SORR pretty well too, and I'll never understand how people let unofficial fan works overwrite their love for the originals. It'd be like hating official fighters because Mugen and Everything VS Everything exist... but anywho!
Yeah, but somewhat competent isn't enough to waste money developing anymore. If it was, shoehorned in online with barely a UI would be all the rage. Like, I could agree with your perspective much more, if I didn't live through the XBLA years of "Online that's dead day 2". In those days, I would have preferred the offline multi be a focus, and gotten right. But instead, devs pushed online first, had NO offline, and now, no one remembers them. At least if they got the base game right, locals could still bust the game out on ocassion. Which would open up game jams, lets plays, Co Op GDQ's, and more.
Definitely OK with it for the quality on display here. I guess you could say one is a question of talent, one is a question of money. I'll take the talent getting to make their dream work, especially when it aligns with something people want, WAY, WAY before a feature that can be added later on. Especially if all it takes is "toss more guys at it". A solid game can make the money to do these things, as long as the pubs and devs are willing. A crappy game with great online will never get the chance to please either audience.
This is an enthusiast forum. Or was... at any rate, I think it's fine to expect more than average understanding from a less-dedicated forum. Profit is a concern for anyone that wants to see a series continue. Especially now-a-days where 1 profitable entry can lead to years of growth and support, even on the same release.
Again, who needs a sequel? SOR4 could get seasons of Content that lead to it having as many features as SORR, all in one package. As long as Sega and the Devs want it, and see the potential for it.
I think it's the opposite. Not splitting this loving animated, solidly crafted 2D game into pieces to put in online helps them make a better experience. It's the game itself that'll make it last over and over. Look at all the PS3 / XB360 gen BEU's that have online, that no one ever speaks about anymore. Heck, for me, Scott Pilgrim got worse as one was allowed to over-level, whereas I played through Phantom Breaker Battlegrounds many times more, because of it's more enjoyable, balanced gameplay.
More like "the addition of dash with little else around it, was acceptable at the time." Even SORR gave more worthiness to speed by having stages based on surfing and bike riding. I'd love running if it included a tackle / pounce, the ability to toss enemies (making them run) into walls to stun them, and if they had a use in the "motorbike" fights, so that you could chase the bikers, and take them out before they loop around. But instead we got a game where running was faster than the screen, and the game got to the featured screen at the same time, whether you ran, slid, grand-upper'd, of skate-dashed.
I think the most I loved with running in SOR3 was when you're running between rooms, trying to defuse the bombs. That helped add urgency... but little else.
Running felt great and Satisfying in Capcom's D&D games. When the whole group dashes on, the whole screen sped up, and they had segments made with this in mind, such as trap areas, and longer stretches. Die Hard Arcade's way of making running into fully reaction-based moments was also great. Running in Guardian Heroes felt good, too. The camera panned back, you got a real lay of the land, and the screens zoomed out before zooming back in for the encounters. Crashing into a new group with a tackle or something was a great way to say "Hi!"
Really, when Sega had SOR2 as a basis, they STILL couldn't get speed right in 3. This new game has no asset or gameplay basis built, they're making everything from scratch and approximations. It's a great idea that they're focusing on the core, rather than rushing to add features like lite 90's part 2s, 3s and 4 were doing.
Yeah, a lot of SOR3's additions could have used another pass of refinement and implementation. I like the fact I have more to explore in 3, but 2 is the one I still go back and play, even with 3 available.
Yeah, I don't expect it to be THAT late in the year, but at the same time... it's easier to wait for games than ever. There's SO much gaming, and one title can offer so much, by constantly evolving and growing. We got at least 1 base character left to add, we WANT Shiva to be playable, we'd love to see a new boss or 2 implemented as playable... Yeah, we'll see how this turns out, lol.
Not "only" - "Best". But if you watch the Pax Interview from this year, the Dev there states his favorite is SOR1.
There is a version of the "free meter specials" here. If you use a clearing special, and then manage the fight without getting hit, you'll recover that spent health back. It's the same idea of the free specials, "Free specials within a specific time", except this version promotes good play, where the old one promoted hit and run tactics.
As for the rest? There's an army of BEU's that try to add everything, and yet succeed at nothing. There's a bunch that give each character the exact same large list of attacks, even MORE of those now-a-days, since many game makers seem more interested in drawing big background, rather than unique characters. An army of loose options makes a game much less fun to play, because you're basically just playing skins on the same stats.
The focus on 2 is to get the basics right. It's not to toss 3 under the bus, but to admit it's issues and "evolution" take a lot more work to get right than many think. Again, even with all the work of 2 RIGHT there, the original devs had a hard time making it work.
Everything you list is EXACTLY why devs take the cheap way out in so, so many ways. Why backgrounds are reused, enemy variety if low, AI is poorly scripted, Boss characters have a 4th the moveset of base characters and no unique moves, and attacks are repurposed across characters, with no unique gameplay. That's why it's great to see devs that actually want to do MORE than needed on a game like this. It almost never happens anymore. As they said in the latest dev vid, they're basically trying to make a triple A 2D BEU. What's pushed the genre that hard lately? Dragon's Crown, and...
I mean, look at the feature list from Streets of Fury EX, made by Guard Crush, the same devs working on this game:
They made the first one on XBLIG back in 2007, and then released an EX edition in 2015. Given time and money, these guys have more idea of what they're doing than many a BEU dev now-a-days. Same to be said for Lizard Cube and their 2D game animation know-how. Even Nintendo stopped at one Warioland Shake it. Lizard Cube made Dragon's Trap Remake, and then jumped right to making a game with more, bigger characters, more detailed linework, a more ambitious lighting system, and a much, much more involved gameplay basis.
For all the work put into SORR, it has no future, because it's work atop someone else's product. Surprises me Bombergames never has taken the framework and tried to make something personal. But THIS actually has the chance to grow, set new standards, and be a new baseline that can actually be iterated on professionally. No way am I getting "spoiled" by such a fan project. This has a lot more potential, and has a chance to take what Bomber prototyped, and turn it into something people can not only enjoy playing officially, but maybe even devs can actually make a living wage off of.
