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kess

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,020
They're scared. I love it.

No mention of, you know, trying to cancel Ukraine.

Or how their government is demonstrably worse in every metric

Or that they declared this war with blut und boden rhetoric

Or that there are literally lists of political enemies and nonconformists to be liquidated

LOOK OVER THERE! BAD PEOPLE!
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,236
I see #IStandWithPutin trending on Twitter with currently 144,000 posts. Must be Russian hackers and bots or a very stupid individual starting this? Though tons of people are using it to express their disgust, too.

I noticed a general increasing of pro Russian propaganda on social media today in genral.
 

Putzballs

Member
Nov 5, 2017
505
User Banned (1 Month): Ignoring Staff Post, Fearmongering, and Thread Derail
I'm not suggesting there is an easy solution but it sure feels like the world is sacrificing Ukraine to a bully because the world is worried what the bully will do to them.

Sanctions are going to hurt Russia but sanctions won't help Ukraine.

What is the world going to do to China when they invade Taiwan? Sanctions against China? I'm not sure that is even feasible because China is key to world supply chains.
 
Dec 4, 2017
11,481
Brazil


An independent news network from Russia shut down their emissions temporarily and in the mean time they are airing... Swan Lake. Quite the message, if you know history.

hazlitt.net

This Portentous Composition: Swan Lake's Place in Soviet Politics | Hazlitt

How the classic ballet has changed—and been changed by—the history of Russia.
I had to google
In August 1991, Ross writes, when a group of communist hard-liners attempted to overthrow Mikhail Gorbachev's government, television programs again were interrupted; for days, the only thing on state TV was a continuous loop of Swan Lake. Sergei Filatov, a member of the Russian legislature, was on vacation at the time. "I turned on the TV and saw the swans dancing," Filatov told the Moscow Times. "For five minutes, ten, for an hour. Then I realized that something had happened." He immediately got on a flight to Moscow, where he played an important role defending the city against the attempted takeover. (One of the leaders of the coup, Vasily Starodubtsev, later admitted that the broadcast was a strategic error.)​
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,133
Chile


dear God I agree with Ben Shapiro? 2022 you so crazy


In the supposed logic that that's the real reason, it's not really about having NATO right on their borders, but how close to Moscow those borders are. Ukraine's border, specially Donestk and Lugansk, are way closer than Estonia and Latvia.

So Shapiro would be wrong, as always, don't worry
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
Skynews with translation of Putin speech

www.youtube.com

Watch Sky News live

Watch Sky News live: Rescuers are working against the clock to free hundreds of people thought to be trapped under rubble in Turkey and Syria; Joe Biden has ...
tl;dw: they are Nazis, Ukrainians and Russians are one, they are Nazis, we will pay if your son dies, they are Nazis using Nazi methods, our plan is being perfectly executed, Nazis again.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,403
There's a possibility that these "conscripts" are just going to be executed and declared "training accidents" or "combat casualties".
Which isn't exactly new to the Russian army

www.latimes.com

Mothers and Sons : When Thousads of Recruits Came Home in Sealed Coffins, the Russian Army Blamed 'Accidents.' But the Mothers Call It Murder.

IN A CRAMPED AUTOPSY ROOM IN MOSCOW, with bulky, antiquated equipment, a scruffy workman with a hammer and chisel tears open a soldered zinc box to reveal a slender coffin covered with thin red cotton.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,224
What I don't understand about this NATO redline/non-interference thing.

Every country is literally advertising that they are sending weapons to help kill Russians. It's not like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Syria where people could at least have plausible deniability. It's PR announcements by government officials.

Why is that any different from direct engagement? What happens if the Russians decide to blow up a "lethal aid" plane while it's in Ukrainian airspace?
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,924
Where is a good place to follow the economic aspects of all of this? For whatever reason the economic machinations and the day-to-day impact of the sanctions is more interesting to me than troop movements and the such.

Are there any high-quality outlets reporting on it consistently? No shade to the economics professors writing long Twitter threads, but I'd like to read more on-the-ground reporting with greater depth.
 

Kensation

The Enlightened "this guy are sick"
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,851
What I don't understand about this NATO redline/non-interference thing.

Every country is literally advertising that they are sending weapons to help kill Russians. It's not like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Syria where people could at least have plausible deniability. It's PR announcements by government officials.

Why is that any different from direct engagement? What happens if the Russians decide to blow up a "lethal aid" plane while it's in Ukrainian airspace?
The plane would not be in Ukrainian airspace.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,099
Arkansas, USA
Good read, thanks for the link

No problem, if someone told me before all of this happened that Germany would aggressively move to help Ukraine in defiance of Russia I wouldn't have believed them.

Politics HAS undergone...

That's the first time I've consciously realized that politics can be used both as singular and plural. It's a really good article as well.

Yeah, Atlantic articles can be hit or miss. But when they hit they're usually must reads. This isn't a long-form article like a lot of their stuff, it's concise and to the point.

Germany waking up and realizing that the world needs them to stand up and fight for democracy, freedom of association, expression, etc. is the 2nd most important story to come out of all this after the bravery of the Ukrainian people.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,385
What I don't understand about this NATO redline/non-interference thing.

Every country is literally advertising that they are sending weapons to help kill Russians. It's not like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Syria where people could at least have plausible deniability. It's PR announcements by government officials.

Why is that any different from direct engagement? What happens if the Russians decide to blow up a "lethal aid" plane while it's in Ukrainian airspace?
I could be wrong but my impression was that once Russia invaded the aid was shifted from giant cargo planes landing in Ukraine to giant cargo planes landing in a neighboring country and then the aid being shipped by land. I'm not sure though. I certainly haven't heard of flights from other countries going into Ukraine with military aid since things started.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
What I don't understand about this NATO redline/non-interference thing.

Every country is literally advertising that they are sending weapons to help kill Russians. It's not like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Syria where people could at least have plausible deniability. It's PR announcements by government officials.

Why is that any different from direct engagement? What happens if the Russians decide to blow up a "lethal aid" plane while it's in Ukrainian airspace?

Ukraine is still a sovereign country, Russia doesn't get to decide what we send Ukraine just because they started a war. We aren't flying planes into Ukraine to avoid that situation, and if Russia were to cut-off the aid on the ground then it is what it is and we would have to try to find some other means. It's frankly surprising that they haven't
 

Plutone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,745
Hey maybe they are starting to get it!

tolerant-left-1w6jpf.jpg
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,330
What I don't understand about this NATO redline/non-interference thing.

Every country is literally advertising that they are sending weapons to help kill Russians. It's not like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Syria where people could at least have plausible deniability. It's PR announcements by government officials.

Why is that any different from direct engagement? What happens if the Russians decide to blow up a "lethal aid" plane while it's in Ukrainian airspace?

Because there's still a semblance of order in this chaos

A line.

Aid is not direct intervention.

NATO troops are not killing Russian troops
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,560
Germany
Germany waking up and realizing that the world needs them to stand up and fight for democracy, freedom of association, expression, etc. is the 2nd most important story to come out of all this after the bravery of the Ukrainian people.
I have no idea if the majority of people here in Germany truly understand what has happened.
Most of what I hear from people close to me is "Why do they want to send our sons to war for whatever it is they are doing?"
 

toadsworth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,077
Where is a good place to follow the economic aspects of all of this? For whatever reason the economic machinations and the day-to-day impact of the sanctions is more interesting to me than troop movements and the such.

Are there any high-quality outlets reporting on it consistently? No shade to the economics professors writing long Twitter threads, but I'd like to read more on-the-ground reporting with greater depth.
Western journalists have mostly fleed Russia and independent sources have been silenced so not really unfortunately
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,224
The plane would not be in Ukrainian airspace.
Ukraine is still a sovereign country, Russia doesn't get to decide what we send Ukraine just because they started a war. We aren't flying planes into Ukraine to avoid that situation, and if Russia were to cut-off the aid on the ground then it is what it is and we would have to try to find some other means. It's frankly surprising that they haven't
I could be wrong but my impression was that once Russia invaded the aid was shifted from giant cargo planes landing in Ukraine to giant cargo planes landing in a neighboring country and then the aid being shipped by land. I'm not sure though. I certainly haven't heard of flights from other countries going into Ukraine with military aid since things started.

So technically it's Ukrainian truck drivers crossing the border into Poland or whatever to drive the supplies back? That still feels like a very fine difference... like one of those rules lawyering things where the rules are clearly being broken but it's fine because it's technically still legal.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,385
So technically it's Ukrainian truck drivers crossing the border into Poland or whatever to drive the supplies back? That still feels like a very fine difference... like one of those rules lawyering things where the rules are clearly being broken but it's fine because it's technically still legal.
Driving a civilian truck with military cargo seems pretty different from flying a military cargo plane directly into a war-zone, particularly since I'd almost guarantee that the military cargo plane would have fighter escorts.
 

INST

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,647
What I don't understand about this NATO redline/non-interference thing.

Every country is literally advertising that they are sending weapons to help kill Russians. It's not like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Syria where people could at least have plausible deniability. It's PR announcements by government officials.

Why is that any different from direct engagement? What happens if the Russians decide to blow up a "lethal aid" plane while it's in Ukrainian airspace?

I think NATO will not intervene as long as none of their members gets attacked. Feel like even public executions / millions of civilians dying won't be enough.