It will just garuntee a democratic candidate not necessarily a progressive. I think people over estimate how much change in that directions the country wants
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On Voting or Not Voting for Biden in Light of the Sexual Assault Allegations |OT| Discussion Guidelines in OP
- Thread starter Poodlestrike
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How is it a good take? We are only ONE seat away from a majority. How does that make it a lost cause?
Dumping the SC is not an option. Saying "fuck it" and allowing the GOP to replace RBG with a young alt-right judge because you don't like the system and dooming the court to the right for decades, a court that would have never legalized gay marriage or save Obamacare?
A lot of Bernie fans said that is what would happen in 2020 after Trump beat Hillary.
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8 years of Bush lead to our first black president. Now consider how much our country has changed demographically in the past 20 years or so.
Someone explain to me like I'm 5 how a impeached president can even run for a second term?
when is that law going to change?
when is that law going to change?
It is an option. Stop limiting yourself in what is and isn't possible. We need to achieve the impossible to fix our country. The SCOTUS has done 20 bad things for ever good thing it's done. Citizen's United anyone? After that decision, we as a country should have demanded that the court be disbanded. They have far too much power and that power falls in the wrong hands far too often. I mean shit, we have at least 2 rapists on the court.
I get that liberals are afraid of anything that might actually help people but we need to evolve past imagining what is "possible within the current system" and start demanding what this country actually needs
8 years of bush lead to a democratic president. It just so happened we got a candidate with a great personality. Obama would have won in any year he ran in. He was something beyond likeable, he was a guy you wanted to smoke a blunt with and then shoot some hoops with. He was your friend from the basketball court back in the day that broke out when you and your other friends went to do your wild shit and no one cared that he went home early because you he knew was going to be somebody one day.
That's that once in a generation shit.
If we had a 5-4 majority citizens united would never have happened! And if we get a Dem president we will replace RBG with a young left leaning judge and only be one seat away from a majority.
Citizens United isn't an example of why the answer is "fuck the system". Citizens United is an example of why we need a 5-4 court majority.
Ok then, explain to me the realistic process of *getting rid* of the Supreme Court as a more viable option than replacing RBG with a like-minded left leaning judge. I'd love to hear how you think that is a viable alternative that can be done in the same time frame.
What is the process for scrapping the SC and how do you do that in a realistic time frame? VS having RBG retire under a Dem president and appointing a young like minded replacement.
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You wont be fixing shit because by time you get back in power the country will be cemented with a conservative court at district, federal and Supreme court level and gerrymandering would have fucked everything up to such a degree that it'll be a pipe dream for anything but basically the coasts to win senate/national elections. That's the future which awaits if Joe Biden loses.
You know, I am a gen xer (at the tail end, born 1980), and I've been waiting on a generation larger than the boomers to emerge. It finally happened with Millennials and Zoomers. They make up the majority of voting-age people now! They are bigger than the boomers! So as an "old" lefty, I was ecstatic seeing how the boomers feared them! they feared their voting power. And as 2020 rolled around, the narrative was "oh shit! Young people are pissed! They want change now!" and you could tell the older people were hesitant, a little nervous as for the first time ever boomers were going to lose power. Bernie was on fire! People were fired up! I was fired up! I threw in with them and even almost got banned for going in hard on Biden voters on this forum. But then Super Tuesday happened, and all the "fury" and "anger" amounted to jack shit. Do you know who DID get fired up? Older black people, black women, suburban voters. They were so fired up they voted in numbers not seen in ages for democrats. Zoomers/Millenials had their shot to take the power and fucked it up. So now im throwing in with the people who vote, because Trump has to go no matter what. Maybe in 2028 the young people will be old enough to actually give a damn and vote for their beliefs.
Leftist need to remember, Bernie is NOT the movement, Bernie is just one man, don't let his lost stop you from seeing the forest in the trees. Those politically motivated young people should vote, because if you ever want a chance at power, to make the change, you can't allow Donald Trump to appoint two or three more SC judges, and finish demolishing the federal courts. He will ensure, when the time comes, for an AOC for president or Pressley for President, that they have no chance. And he is truly a level of evil not seen in America in ages. A despot who happens to have the might and power of the American industrial complex behind him. Which is scary.
"I get that liberals are afraid of anything that might actually help people"
Yes, this is convincing. Revolution ho.
Yes, this is convincing. Revolution ho.
Honestly man im just trying to stay optimistic. I think biden is a horrible candidate and will lose handily to trump.
Just going off history i feel like their will be a hard swing left in 2024. Young latinos will be a force in 2024. AOC is just the beginning.
First step is accepting that it something that could be done, then demanding that it should be done. We need to take back control of our own damn party and force our representatives to represent us. Replacing RGB isn't going to fix Citizen's United. It's not going to fix abortion rights. You want to fix things then start thinking outside the box that was built around you. I don't have the answer you want because I can't predict the future, but we do have the power to make the future if we actually fight for it.
When he actually gets impeached, it was all reversed and that is why he's still president
There is no history to point to this, at all.
When Democrats lost to Reagan twice and Bush Sr they went even further moderate to try to win back the white house. There is absolutely no history or track record of Dem primary voters shifting left in the wake of a defeat. They tend to get *MORE* moderate the more they lose.
I mean just look at 2020. Bernie did way, way, way, way, way worse than he did in 2016 coming off of Trump winning the white house. How do you explain that if losing will shift the party left?
The argument post 2016 was Trump losing + 4 years of new young voters becoming eligible to vote = a left candidate would win 2020's primaries. But Bernie did far worse than he did in 2016.
Biden isn't going to lose to trump, especially after covid, maybe trump had a shot if covid didn't happen but too many people are going to die. He won't last. Plus Biden is well liked and the only reason Trump won is because the DNC under estimated how much Hillary was hated. She was so hated she had life long Democrat's voting republican. That won't happen this time.
User banned (2 weeks): Ignoring staff discussion guidelines, hostility over a series of posts, accusations of alt. History of infractions for hostility.
Lol who's alt are you?
And just one more reminder of the reality of Trump, a evil motherfucker who fears nothing from congress and is fine with the deaths his failure to be ready has on us. remember, he is the reason America is now in dire straits with covid-19. HE is the reason we were caught so unprepared doctors and nurses are going home crying, mentally traumatized by what they witness. And he says this shit:
If his racism doesn't convince you, his despot like behavior doesn't convince you, his hatred of anything not white and American doesnt, his willingness to send back the millions of dreamers as SOON as he can, his lack of care of climate change, and his obvious lack of care about the thousands dying and who will die of Covid -19? Then nothing will.
If his racism doesn't convince you, his despot like behavior doesn't convince you, his hatred of anything not white and American doesnt, his willingness to send back the millions of dreamers as SOON as he can, his lack of care of climate change, and his obvious lack of care about the thousands dying and who will die of Covid -19? Then nothing will.
I dunno, who's alt are you?
You veer wildly between these weird calls for unity and sneering at anyone not in total agreement. It's amusing, but probably not getting anyone to change their minds.
Well the door's always open to you comrade, just try not to be so rude about people wanting to fix a broken system
Saying "replacing RBG with an alt-right judge doesn't matter, scrap the SC instead" isn't you wanting to fix anything. It's just you saying anything short of toppling the entire government is meaningless.
An entire toppling of the government of the United States is not something most those who are on the left half of the country who live paycheck to paycheck are going to be ok waiting around for. People want judges appointed who will work to try and protect them.
No it wasn't. He's still impeached.
But the reason why an impeached President can still run is because the other side could impeach a president willingly any time if they didn't want them to be able to run.
The problem with accellerationism, aside from the fact that it doesn't seem to work (or Sanders would have run away with the nomination already), is also that if the GOP gets another 4 years to mold the judiciary (SCOTUS and lower courts) into a Federalist Society sub-branch, it won't matter if a candidate to the left of Sanders makes it in. The judiciary will be so die-hard conservative that anything that new president proposes will get appealed, ruled unconstitutional and thrown out.
True, but Biden also happens to be the candidate with the best odds of retaking the senate. It's no coincidence that additional candidates jumped into the senate race the moment Biden passed Sanders in delegates.
I mean this is also what libs do to the left all the damn time. Including now when their candidate is a rapist, if libs aren't going to stop being smug fucks why should the left?
Now we're getting somewhere! Seriously though I'm gonna cut this one short because I'm up far too late. Just try to take this seriously. Replacing RBG is a bandaid on a leaking dam. We need transformative change in our government and we can't wait for "the proper time" to do it. Have conviction and willpower, be a damn fighter. I'm not saying go to capitol hill and personally stand outside and wave a sign around, I just want you to accept it as an option that isn't insane batshit. We need to think bigger.
^ I'm seconding this. The world has so many problems right now that need fixed quickly not incrementally because we literally don't have the time for that shit anymore. Incrementalism at this stage will likely kill us all, just slightly slower than doing nothing. Actual radical action is an option that should be at least considered without being dismissed as silly or sneered at just cause some people are fine with the status quo
Im voting biden. I just don't like his chances.
Also im fairly confident the next dem president will at the very least be much more progressive than Obama. I feel the latino community is going to have a massive impact in the 2024 election.
So what you're saying is you don't actually have a plan, because that doesn't qualify. A ton of politicians (including Bernie) aren't even willing to pack the courts, and you think they could be convinced that the court should be disbanded entirely?
You're constantly doing this thing where you act like people don't give a shit if they aren't in lockstep with you already. You can't even be bothered to come up with basic explanations about how toppling the Supreme Court would work, but somehow you're the fighter.
Use that conviction of yours and come up with a reason why Republican-controlled states won't obliterate the things they've been gunning for since before most of us were born? Will there be a mechanism to prevent that, or is the hope that vulnerable people just move somewhere else? If you can answer basic shit like that in a way that goes beyond "We'll just force the politicians to do what we want," I'm open to the possibility.
Which has the exact same electoral effect as voting for Trump. There is no difference electorally than voting for Trump vs. abstaining if it is someone would otherwise vote for the Democratic option. Both are a net +1 for Trump's margin in whatever state the vote would be for.
Does our two party electoral college system suck? Yeah, but that is our system so that vote works out to be a +1 for Trump's margins regardless if its filling in the Trump bubble or just not filling in the bubble at all.
I didn't want Bernie to win, but I would have eagerly voted for him in November because the fate of the world depends on stopping Trump and putting in place a competent cabinet and working government. I'd have voted Bernie even though I didn't want him to win the nomination even if he had a similar accusation made against him.
Because for me, it isn't about what I want. It is about saving my country. Biden, Bernie, Bloomberg, Warren, Buttigieg, etc. Nothing would change for me in November. I'd be there. I'd walk over hot coal for any of them. I want to save my country from this vile wannabe dictator.
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Radical action is still predicated on the mass majority of people being ready to politically support you. The way you talk about incremental change makes it sound like you think that it's everyone's choice and not forced compromise necessitated by a wide variety of viewpoints in your population. I too would love if most people just woke up one day believing that my ideas were the best and were willing to go out and vote for people espousing them, but we don't live in that world. Without a way of getting to this radical action is just a pipe dream, and should be treated as such.
Yep. What I can't wrap my head around is they never have any suggestions on HOW to do these things.
Like, okay you think replacing RBG with 40 year old alt-righter who will be on the court for 35+ years won't make any difference and the only answer you will accept is scrapping the entire Supreme Court instead.
How exactly do you accomplish that? How is that a solution that is viable to not care who replaces RBG? Even the most left senators in the senate balk at the idea of even packing the SC, let alone scrapping the entire thing.
...in a state where there is even a slight and remote chance of the EC going for Trump, yes. In a state like IL, CA, or NY that'll go blue no matter what, whether the candidate is Biden or Bernie or Warren or Cuomo or a bag of rice with googly eyes on it, I have a hard time seeing how abstaining is electorally the same as anything but...abstaining. The end result is guaranteed.
It is batshit insane, because the population of the country is not and will probably never be there. Again, people are not going to just wake up and want to be progressives, they just want to wake up and know the president of their country doesn't want them dead.
Yes there are people that want change and they want change right now, but the only change you're going to get is a mad man out of the office. For a majority of the country that's good enough.
that's not to say your concerns aren't warranted, but you have to operate within reasonable reality with ideas that can actually get done.
We might not even get to replace RBG to begin with to be brutally honest. She has to actually make it to January with us gaining both the Presidency and the Senate to have a chance at then trying to force her to retire. And they'll almost definitely try to replace either Thomas or Alito or both before Trump leaves office TBH with younger, even more conservative appointees that McConnel can ram through. Or whose to say McConnel and Trump just decide to pack the courts beforehand in a full blown firesale of American politics like they've done for the past 4 years.
The depressing reality is that, while its admirable to say, let's do this for the Supreme Court, it might not even be in play anymore come November and there's a fucking zero percent chance that Biden will do anything that requires a more meaningful rebuke of norms outside of attempt to nominate a judge or two when vacancies become available. Obama didn't fight for Merrick Garland when he should have been throwing everything at the GOP's blatant power grab, and that put us in the current situation to begin with. I get the sense Biden will likely roll over on the courts just as much.
I'm an advocate for harm reduction in the form of voting for Biden (and then actively pushing the country as left as possible and telling Biden to fuck off if he stands in the way through civil disobedience and acts of protest), but I do want us to acknowledge the realities of the situation regarding the courts too. People act like its guaranteed we'll get Biden to replace RBG with a left leaning judge, when absolutely none of that is guaranteed to happen in the first place since it requires a ton of stuff to go that way.
I also will say that I don't blame people not voting Biden in deep red and deep blue states. At that point your vote is already little more than a personal statement. He's an absolutely awful candidate that has a record that reads like a liability and actively turns the past four years of moral high ground antics from the Democratic party into little more than meaningless smoke when we have to trot out many of the same defenses for Biden that Trump voters have for years. What you do with your vote is your choice, and you have to live with it, and that's really all I think any of us can say. You can only control you after all.
The depressing reality is that, while its admirable to say, let's do this for the Supreme Court, it might not even be in play anymore come November and there's a fucking zero percent chance that Biden will do anything that requires a more meaningful rebuke of norms outside of attempt to nominate a judge or two when vacancies become available. Obama didn't fight for Merrick Garland when he should have been throwing everything at the GOP's blatant power grab, and that put us in the current situation to begin with. I get the sense Biden will likely roll over on the courts just as much.
I'm an advocate for harm reduction in the form of voting for Biden (and then actively pushing the country as left as possible and telling Biden to fuck off if he stands in the way through civil disobedience and acts of protest), but I do want us to acknowledge the realities of the situation regarding the courts too. People act like its guaranteed we'll get Biden to replace RBG with a left leaning judge, when absolutely none of that is guaranteed to happen in the first place since it requires a ton of stuff to go that way.
I also will say that I don't blame people not voting Biden in deep red and deep blue states. At that point your vote is already little more than a personal statement. He's an absolutely awful candidate that has a record that reads like a liability and actively turns the past four years of moral high ground antics from the Democratic party into little more than meaningless smoke when we have to trot out many of the same defenses for Biden that Trump voters have for years. What you do with your vote is your choice, and you have to live with it, and that's really all I think any of us can say. You can only control you after all.
The irony of this is that the deciding votes in both those cases were Republican appointees. Also, do you just call anyone you disagree with "alt-right"? What on earth is an alt-right judge?
Like for example, do I think its fair the tiny red states get just as many senators as the big states like California? No. It sucks.
Am I going to refuse to vote for any candidate that is left of center who doesn't promise to overturn this despite the fact it is effectively impossible to do so? Of course not.
If you refuse to vote for anyone unless they promise revolution you will just end up with increasingly more and more right leaning policies and be further and further from your revolution as wanting nothing over policies that would help push things towards the left won't accomplish any of your goals.
Am I going to refuse to vote for any candidate that is left of center who doesn't promise to overturn this despite the fact it is effectively impossible to do so? Of course not.
If you refuse to vote for anyone unless they promise revolution you will just end up with increasingly more and more right leaning policies and be further and further from your revolution as wanting nothing over policies that would help push things towards the left won't accomplish any of your goals.
A big enough part of the population is angrily demanding change already, that's how we got Trump in the first place. People aren't necessarily just going to wake up and be progressives all of the sudden, but ignoring the increasingly vocal outcry that the system doesn't work (and the equally stunning silence of resignation to our broken institutions and systems that dominates a huge number of our eligible voters) isn't going to work moving forward. "Back to normal" stands to either piss off or depress massive portions of our voting population at this point. "What can actually get done" is only what people decide to fight for quite frankly, and we can either attempt to embrace more radical changes to fix our system, or just push our entire society further and further into the arms of fascists and authoritarians.
That's "not good enough" at all. If this ultimately just results in disenfranchising more people through a broken system and 2024 is just the setup for an even more intelligent and more "Presidential" fascist who promises a better world to the electorate, they'll run right back to his arms. We can't keep ignoring how Trump and populist fascists get into power or we're doomed to keep repeating this cycle until there's nothing left anyway.
Kavanaugh is an alt-right Trumper judge I would say. We will get an exact replica of him to replace RBG is Trump wins re-election.
If this was true Bernie would you know....be blowing out biden. Trump parades around ideas that appealed to white people on both sides of the aisle. Racist ideologies. He played on fears
Maybe that says more about our government that it is easier to implement change rooted in hatred than it is to implement change rooted in positivity.
you have to plant the seed before you can grow the grass. Bernie planted the seed in places that didn't need anymore grass. Republicans planted the seed for Trump over the course of 75 years or so.
Impeachment just means that he was sent to trial. The trial was in the Senate and since the GOP controls the Senate, he was let go. If they did vote to convict him, he wouldn't be able to run again.
That might be the case, but 8 years is a much longer time to block a nominee than the 1 year he did it with Merrick Garland (leaving a court of 8 for 1 year is harder to get away with than for 1 year), and, if he does block Biden's hypothetical pick, at least he won't get to confirm someone like Kavanaugh.
Yeah, I get the feeling some folks just haven't thought about the harsh reality of things. Even a Bernie presidency wouldn't "scrap" SCOTUS like that.
Sure, but, we need to generate the political power for these changes. That's the hard part. That's not impossible, but I think it's been clearly demonstrated that any upcoming big progressive campaigns need to not just re-run the Bernie campaign because that didn't work.
Kavanaugh is a paradigmatic establishment Republican, not an alt-righter. I don't think arguments about the courts are going to be very persuasive here. Democrats don't seem to care about them very much, as shown by Obama's utter neglect to do what Trump is doing as far as putting judges on them.
Thank you for this. I, too, wish the country would suddenly wake up tomorrow with a huge progressive majority, but it ain't there yet. None of my friends who constantly call for radical action have ever been able to give a compelling answer to what, specifically, we're supposed to do to get there.
more likely 4 more years of Trump will lead to something like the courts deciding all other parties other than republicans are Terrorist groups and if you think Americans will rise up in revolution you obviously don't know Americans well enough. If anything forum wise is to go by, America is full of leftist keyboard warriors and not much beyond that
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