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OP
OP
Feb 14, 2018
3,083
I haven't seen this one posted yet, I've waited a couple of days to see if any responses come out like "oh this is a video taken 7 years ago in Antarctica" or something. I haven't seen any evidence that it's old or fake and I invite others to share such evidence if they find it; if so I'll remove it.



While we're talking about listening to the people of Cuba:



Man, look at all those nice aerial views of the counter-protests and listen to the megaphones. Sure was nice of the government to allow these pretty videos to be taken and broadcast.

We would know which group is larger if the country had fair elections. Curious that the police aren't arresting and brutalizing the counter-protestors, which once again is the actual issue here.

Wonder what people would say if I told them I know from a source close to an actual party member that the government organized the counter-protests. I obviously can't prove it so people have no reason to believe me. But I don't know why anyone would be inclined to trust the Cuban regime more, knowing what kind of tactics they use to keep people in line.
 
Last edited:

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Some updates on the government response:

The Cuban government on Wednesday has shown signs of concession to the unprecedented protests.

Cubans had taken to the streets to demonstrate against economic hardship marked by shortages of food, electricity and other essentials.

The government had only blamed social media and the United States for inciting the protests. But President Miguel Diaz-Canel admitted on Wednesday that failings by his government played a role in the unrest.

Shortly before the president spoke on television, Cuban Prime Minister Manuel Marrero announced relaxing some customs measures and made new promises to protesters.

While the Cuban president reiterated his accusations against the United States, he also offered some self-criticism for the first time.

"We have to gain experience from the riots," he said. "We also have to carry out a critical analysis of our problems in order to act and overcome, and avoid their repetition.

"Our society is not a society that generates hatred and those people acted with hatred," Diaz-Canel said, calling for "peace, harmony among Cubans and respect."

Diaz-Canel added that Cubans must "overcome our disagreements between all of us. What we have to promote, even though we have different points of view on certain issues, is between all of us to try to find solutions."

Cuban citizens who go on foreign trips can bring home toiletries, food and medicine — some of the hardest products to find in Cuba — without paying customs, Marrero said.

Under Cuban law, travelers arriving here can bring up to 10 kilograms (22 pounds) of medicine tax-free. They can also bring in limited amounts of food and personal hygiene gear but must pay customs duties.

But starting Monday and until the end of 2021, the limits and duties are lifted, Marrero said.

The prime minister also said the government was working on improving the national electricity system.

Officials will also seek to improve the supply of medicines, Marrero said.

Meanwhile, Economy Minister Alejandro Gil announced that the government would institute long-promised rules for business owners to set up small- and medium-sized enterprises.

m.dw.com

Cuba tries to placate protesters with concessions – DW – 07/15/2021

Cuban President Miguel Diaz-Canel took some blame for the protests and the government announced easing customs measures after demonstrations rocked the country.
 

Rogue74

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,775
Miami, FL
Nobody has suggested that there aren't some Cubans who support the Communist regime. All dictatorships have some amount of support, especially when propaganda is so strong on the ground there.

Here are some fun facts:

I was in Cuba visiting my sister and father in 2003. I hadn't seen them since 1980. I got them out in 2005. Anyway, during that visit, my dad showed me a drawer with t shirts that had slogans in defense of the revolution.
He told me the government would hand those out, and every now and then you would get a visit from a government rep saying that at a certain date and time you were expected to don those shirts and go out and participate in a rally or march.
If you didn't, there would be consequences. They could be severe or minor depending on their whim. He said to avoid trouble (such as losing his job) he would comply and often slip out in side streets or just do it half assedly.

Also, there are groups called Committees for the Defense of the Revolution ( Comités de Defensa de la Revolución ) who act as reps for the government in local neighborhoods. Basically spies who rat people out for "counter revolutionary" activities. They were the ones who made sure you complied with stuff like these organized marches. Naturally, you needed to be very careful about who you spoke to if you were critical of anything government related. My dad pointed out buildings in his neighborhood that served as headquarters for these committees. Every few square blocks or so, you will find one of those structures housing these spies. If you would like to know more about it, check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committees_for_the_Defense_of_the_Revolution

So yeah, you will see protests in support of the government. But don't assume everyone is there out of free will. Oh, I'm sure some are. Like it was said above, every government has its supporters. But I would wager a significant amount of those people are being coerced.
 

sacrament

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
2,119
Some updates on the government response:



m.dw.com

Cuba tries to placate protesters with concessions – DW – 07/15/2021

Cuban President Miguel Diaz-Canel took some blame for the protests and the government announced easing customs measures after demonstrations rocked the country.

Really incremental, and rolling back some changes, but it's not nothing. I doubt it will deter the protests on value or benefit alone sense it's really not addressing anything systemic.

Now that people have started protesting, and then seeing the government reaction, this is not nearly enough. Will see but the people need real reform.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
Really incremental, and rolling back some changes, but it's not nothing. I doubt it will deter the protests on value or benefit alone sense it's really not addressing anything systemic.

Now that people have started protesting, and then seeing the government reaction, this is not nearly enough. Will see but the people need real reform.

Yeah they showed a crack, now is the time to push for more positive change.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
While we're talking about listening to the people of Cuba:




Jesus Christ. Is Cuba a democracy? Does it allow free expression of dissent? Answer that please.

If China brought out uyghurs to say there wasn't a genocide, does that invalidate all the evidence against China?

Everyone seems to do this dance where they act like Cuba is a society where people are free to express dissent. That is absolutely untrue.

I am very disappointed in some posters who assert the right for protest and dissent in the U.S but fail to advocate for the same for the Cuban people based on this need to defend a socialist state. Your rhetoric around freedom to organize, freedom from state suppression, and peaceful protest rings hallow if your only allowed to do so against right wing states.

Personally I'll say this, you should soap up your mouth for using human rights to argue for some causes and then decide since some people are against your pet ideology they are undeserving of the same rights.
 
OP
OP
Feb 14, 2018
3,083
People are sharing a list of names of over 110 people it claims are missing or detained. Personally I can verify that two of the people named were indeed arrested, plus there's a well-known activist (Luis Manuel Otero Alcantara) among the names. That seems to be the scope of the arrests that we know of so far.
As of today, I can offer a personal update to this post from Monday night. The two people I could personally verify were arrested are now home, under house arrest awaiting trial. I don't know how many details I should share for fear of revealing too much about them or myself, but I will give some basic info from the account of one of them.

This protestor was beaten after trying (nonviolently according to him) to stop police from beating another person. Thankfully, it seems the other protestor I verified was not beaten when arrested. They were put in an overcrowded jail cell for 3 days without medical attention. The protestors in the cell were all in their teens and early 20s. Their phones were taken by the police and have not been returned.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
ACAB except for Cuban cops defending the revolution eh? (Which is actually the most disgusting hypocritical bs ever for someone to say ACAB but then gloss over Cuban police repression, like extremely dirt of the earth scummy)(unbelievably fucking trash)(actual absurdity, absolute betrayal of the ideals of human rights and progressivism)

It really really shouldn't be hard for people to call for the end of the embargo, and for the right for the Cuban people to express dissent freely. It should not be hard for expressions of solidarity with peaceful protestors. DSA, you actually can fuck off. Take more lessons from Bernie.

 
Nov 13, 2020
147
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory Misrepresentation of Other Users and Comparing Them to Hate Groups; Account in Junior Phase
I never expected posters on ERA to spit on the views of the BLM movement and embrace the views of the Proud Boys, but here we are.



The simple fact is that the United States wants to overthrow the Cuban government in order to install their own puppet government. They want to return to the days where US interests owned 75% of the arable land, 50% of the sugar industry, and 90% of the electric and transportation industry. Plus significant ownership over other industries such as mining, tobacco, timber and others. It is part of a broader program for American sumpremcy, which nearly ties into white supremacy, as it has historically. That is why you see BLM oppose US backed regime change and why the Proud Boys support it. You can have issues with the Cuban government. It does have many, many issues. BUT, so long as the United States is constantly breathing down their neck, the existing Cuban government is the only thing standing in the way of Cuba becoming a US colony again. That is why it is most important to fight for the US to stop intervening in Cuba before attempting to fight against the Cuban government. Those posters who ignore this fact are basically carrying water for US imperialism, and stating that they do not give a shit if Cuba becomes a US colony again so long as the current government is ousted.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,265
Also, the Cuban left's role in these protests should not be understated.

Here is an article published by Cuban communists in which they condemn the government's response, support the protests, and call for the government to release those it has detained.

I have taken the liberty of translating some excerpts from the article as well as some of the comments underneath it. (Emphasis mine)

"This afternoon, the Cuban people took to the streets. A people convened not by any organization, but by the acute economic crisis that confronts Cuba and the inability of the government to manage the situation. Cuba took to the streets with the wrong slogan "Homeland and life," but it took to the streets for more than just a slogan, it took to the streets to call on the government for a true socialism. Those who were in the streets were not just artists and intellectuals, this time it was the people in its broadest heterogeneity."

[...]

"This article is a call for the liberty of all those detained, and especially the arbitrary detainment of Frank Garcia Hernandez, historian and Cuban Marxist. For the detention of Leonardo Romero Negron, young socialist student of physics at the University of Habana. For the detainment of Maykel Gonzalez Vivero, director of "Tremenda Nota," a marginal maganize. For the detainment of Marcos Antonio Perez Fernandez, an underage pre-university student. For all those violently detained in this black afternoon that Cuba will not forget. [We] appeal to the solidarity of the international Marxist community and also the conscience of the Cuban government. This is about a people that needs answers and dialog.

This is about a civil society that does not want annexation, but instead to participate and decide the destiny of its nation. [We] condemn the repression and say enough to the bureaucracy."

The way I read it, this last line refutes the false dichotomy that many of the people uncritically caping for the Cuban government in this thread and the American left more broadly continue to disingenuously push: it is not a choice between "defending the revolution" and "supporting American intervention." That is a bullshit false dichotomy, and I resent anyone who continues to push it.

From the comments section. I tried to capture a variety of viewpoints:

"It may be the case that some of the protesters are commingled with the empire, but going by the pictures, the majority were young people who owe absolutely nothing to anyone, those born in the mid-80s and 90s who have only seen misery in Cuba, and who are not interested in slogans. Those reflected by Orwell in Animal Farm, the same who emigrated en masse as they saw no future. To me, the call by the President for Cubans to face each other down is a crime against humanity. There has not been a socialism in Cuba for decades, only a caste of bureaucrats who have appropriated the state and who do everything not to lose their privileged positions. It is painful to see how this little group has destroyed the economy and Cuban society. The fault does not lie solely in the embargo, since food: yams, cassava, and beans are not imported. Besides, it is necessary to give the people political participation. The government has shown and continues to show that it is incapable of pulling Cuba out of the hole that they themselves, all of whom possess the bellies and necks of the pathologically obese, have sunk the country."

"I support the Cuban revolution, however I see that the manifestations against the governing bureaucracy are being encouraged by the NED (National Endowment for Democracy [...]). And the signals are clear: 1) the slogan of the manifestations and 2) the American flags present in the marches. Either the socialist revolutionaries expulse these mercenaries with a thrashing, or these manifestations shall have a restorationist destiny. If this does not happen, then the correct thing is to position ourselves together with the leaders of the socialist state of Cuba."

"Solidarity from a communist worker from the United States! The Cuban workers' struggle against the Cuban bureaucracy and the American workers' struggle against monopolist capitalists are one and the same."

"This much is clear: a partisan dictatorship is not a proletarian dictatorship."
 

Arugala

Member
May 21, 2021
716
I never expected posters on ERA to spit on the views of the BLM movement and embrace the views of the Proud Boys, but here we are.



The simple fact is that the United States wants to overthrow the Cuban government in order to install their own puppet government. They want to return to the days where US interests owned 75% of the arable land, 50% of the sugar industry, and 90% of the electric and transportation industry. Plus significant ownership over other industries such as mining, tobacco, timber and others. It is part of a broader program for American sumpremcy, which nearly ties into white supremacy, as it has historically. That is why you see BLM oppose US backed regime change and why the Proud Boys support it. You can have issues with the Cuban government. It does have many, many issues. BUT, so long as the United States is constantly breathing down their neck, the existing Cuban government is the only thing standing in the way of Cuba becoming a US colony again. That is why it is most important to fight for the US to stop intervening in Cuba before attempting to fight against the Cuban government. Those posters who ignore this fact are basically carrying water for US imperialism, and stating that they do not give a shit if Cuba becomes a US colony again so long as the current government is ousted.


Nah this ain't it. You can be against Cuba's regime and against the U.S. embargo, without having to carry water for authoritarian regimes. Not every take is good and not every group with politics you agree with have the right take. Bet you live in a democracy though.
 

sacrament

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
2,119
I never expected posters on ERA to spit on the views of the BLM movement and embrace the views of the Proud Boys, but here we are.



The simple fact is that the United States wants to overthrow the Cuban government in order to install their own puppet government. They want to return to the days where US interests owned 75% of the arable land, 50% of the sugar industry, and 90% of the electric and transportation industry. Plus significant ownership over other industries such as mining, tobacco, timber and others. It is part of a broader program for American sumpremcy, which nearly ties into white supremacy, as it has historically. That is why you see BLM oppose US backed regime change and why the Proud Boys support it. You can have issues with the Cuban government. It does have many, many issues. BUT, so long as the United States is constantly breathing down their neck, the existing Cuban government is the only thing standing in the way of Cuba becoming a US colony again. That is why it is most important to fight for the US to stop intervening in Cuba before attempting to fight against the Cuban government. Those posters who ignore this fact are basically carrying water for US imperialism, and stating that they do not give a shit if Cuba becomes a US colony again so long as the current government is ousted.


No one is embracing the fucking Proud Boys. For shit sake.

And no one is seriously advocating for anything you said - especially that nonsense about turning Cuba into a colony. No one wants that.

But hey, toss out bullshit and your free speech while saying those who are oppressed need to wait until a point your personal views are satisfied. They're only in jail right now, nothing but time for them - right?
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
That is why it is most important to fight for the US to stop intervening in Cuba before attempting to fight against the Cuban government. Those posters who ignore this fact are basically carrying water for US imperialism, and stating that they do not give a shit if Cuba becomes a US colony again so long as the
This is some gross shit. People are suffering, starving, dying under the rule of the current government system in Cuba and you're telling them that they need to shut up because it'll be worse for them if they don't stop protesting for their human rights because it aligns with US interests.

Bad actors will use legitimate causes for their own purposes and just because some groups are coopting legitimate protests for their own purposes doesn't mean you should stop supporting people who are suffering under an authoritarian regime. Living this shit in reality is different than just holding a certain ideology and aligning yourself opposite from whatever far right group. The real world is far messier than that.
 

Rogue74

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,775
Miami, FL
I never expected posters on ERA to spit on the views of the BLM movement and embrace the views of the Proud Boys, but here we are.



The simple fact is that the United States wants to overthrow the Cuban government in order to install their own puppet government. They want to return to the days where US interests owned 75% of the arable land, 50% of the sugar industry, and 90% of the electric and transportation industry. Plus significant ownership over other industries such as mining, tobacco, timber and others. It is part of a broader program for American sumpremcy, which nearly ties into white supremacy, as it has historically. That is why you see BLM oppose US backed regime change and why the Proud Boys support it. You can have issues with the Cuban government. It does have many, many issues. BUT, so long as the United States is constantly breathing down their neck, the existing Cuban government is the only thing standing in the way of Cuba becoming a US colony again. That is why it is most important to fight for the US to stop intervening in Cuba before attempting to fight against the Cuban government. Those posters who ignore this fact are basically carrying water for US imperialism, and stating that they do not give a shit if Cuba becomes a US colony again so long as the current government is ousted.


This post is so fucking disingenuous.
 
Nov 13, 2020
147
Nah this ain't it. You can be against Cuba's regime and against the U.S. embargo, without having to carry water for authoritarian regimes. Not every take is good and not every group with politics you agree with have the right take. Bet you live in a democracy though.

The same argument every time. It is astonishing how little historical memory people have. You'd figure that after the 80th regime change operation people would realize that the main threat is US imperialism, and that calling for the overthrow of government while saying "maybe the US shouldn't invade, but we should do something!" isn't going to end up well. US intervention in Cuba ENSURES that the Cuban people will not be free no matter what. I will never understand those who cape for US imperialism under the guise of "human rights". It is a complete sham and everyone knows it. There is no situation where US regime change makes things better. That is why we must FIRST AND FOREMOST oppose it.
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
The same argument every time. It is astonishing how little historical memory people have. You'd figure that after the 80th regime change operation people would realize that the main threat is US imperialism, and that calling for the overthrow of government while saying "maybe the US shouldn't invade, but we should do something!" isn't going to end up well. US intervention in Cuba ENSURES that the Cuban people will not be free no matter what. I will never understand those who cape for US imperialism under the guise of "human rights". It is a complete sham and everyone knows it. There is no situation where US regime change makes things better. That is why we must FIRST AND FOREMOST oppose it.
Then you find the death and brutalization of Cubans under the current regime entirely justifiable.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Ooof at that Proud Boys support.

The simple fact is that the United States wants to overthrow the Cuban government in order to install their own puppet government. They want to return to the days where US interests owned 75% of the arable land, 50% of the sugar industry, and 90% of the electric and transportation industry. Plus significant ownership over other industries such as mining, tobacco, timber and others. It is part of a broader program for American sumpremcy, which nearly ties into white supremacy, as it has historically. That is why you see BLM oppose US backed regime change and why the Proud Boys support it. You can have issues with the Cuban government. It does have many, many issues. BUT, so long as the United States is constantly breathing down their neck, the existing Cuban government is the only thing standing in the way of Cuba becoming a US colony again. That is why it is most important to fight for the US to stop intervening in Cuba before attempting to fight against the Cuban government. Those posters who ignore this fact are basically carrying water for US imperialism, and stating that they do not give a shit if Cuba becomes a US colony again so long as the current government is ousted.

I don't think this should even be a controversial take. America absolutely wants to install a puppet capitalist state in Cuba and exploit the nation again. The point of the sanctions was really just to cause the people pain and maybe push them to regime change (which never happened, instead it's been decades of suffering).

Cubans should be allowed to publicly protest against, or in support of, their government. And ultimately the Cuban people must be allowed to decide what kind of state they live under. Without American interference. We have done enough damage to Cuba over the years.
 

Newlib

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,822
The same argument every time. It is astonishing how little historical memory people have. You'd figure that after the 80th regime change operation people would realize that the main threat is US imperialism, and that calling for the overthrow of government while saying "maybe the US shouldn't invade, but we should do something!" isn't going to end up well. US intervention in Cuba ENSURES that the Cuban people will not be free no matter what. I will never understand those who cape for US imperialism under the guise of "human rights". It is a complete sham and everyone knows it. There is no situation where US regime change makes things better. That is why we must FIRST AND FOREMOST oppose it.

The US is not going to disappear for the foreseeable future. So is it your opinion then that there can be no opposition to the Cuban government ever?
 
Nov 13, 2020
147
Then you find the death and brutalization of Cubans under the current regime entirely justifiable.

I never said that. I do not support any crimes against the Cuban people, whether it be by the current government or by the United States. But the United States has by FAR caused more death, tourture, and devastation to the island than this government has. If you ask me to choose, I choose the lesser evil. Is that not the moral thing to do? Or does choosing the lesser evil only apply to voting in US elections and nothing else?

The US is not going to disappear for the foreseeable future. So is it your opinion then that there can be no opposition to the Cuban government ever?

I want to US to stop interfering in Cuban affairs. I never said I wanted it to disappear. Unless you are saying that the very existence of the United States hinges on it being an imperialist state. In which case, you are far more radical than even me.
 

Arugala

Member
May 21, 2021
716
The same argument every time. It is astonishing how little historical memory people have. You'd figure that after the 80th regime change operation people would realize that the main threat is US imperialism, and that calling for the overthrow of government while saying "maybe the US shouldn't invade, but we should do something!" isn't going to end up well. US intervention in Cuba ENSURES that the Cuban people will not be free no matter what. I will never understand those who cape for US imperialism under the guise of "human rights". It is a complete sham and everyone knows it. There is no situation where US regime change makes things better. That is why we must FIRST AND FOREMOST oppose it.

Who is in here going to bat for the U.S. sending troops in? Who is asking for anything more than ending the U.S. embargo? Who is talking about any kind of intervention? But sure the U.S. boogie man haunts your dreams while you stick up for a cuban dictatorship. That for sure is real helpful for the cuban people and certainly less dangerous than McDonalds.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,265
The same argument every time. It is astonishing how little historical memory people have. You'd figure that after the 80th regime change operation people would realize that the main threat is US imperialism, and that calling for the overthrow of government while saying "maybe the US shouldn't invade, but we should do something!" isn't going to end up well. US intervention in Cuba ENSURES that the Cuban people will not be free no matter what. I will never understand those who cape for US imperialism under the guise of "human rights". It is a complete sham and everyone knows it. There is no situation where US regime change makes things better. That is why we must FIRST AND FOREMOST oppose it.
This is that same bullshit false dichotomy I covered in my earlier post. The same bullshit false dichotomy that the Cuban people themselves are rejecting.
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
I never said that. I do not support any crimes against the Cuban people, whether it be by the current government or by the United States. But the United States has FAR caused more death, tourture, and devastation to the island than this government has. If you ask me to choose, I choose the lesser evil. Is that not the moral thing to do? Or does choosing the lesser evil only apply to voting in US elections and nothing else?
You should be able to choose supporting the people currently being oppressed and stand against the embargo and US intervention.

Holding on to the fear of US coming in and installing a puppet government, a stance of inaction, ensures that Cubans will never be free from oppression ever.
 

Rogue74

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,775
Miami, FL
Ooof at that Proud Boys support.



I don't think this should even be a controversial take. America absolutely wants to install a puppet capitalist state in Cuba and exploit the nation again. The point of the sanctions was really just to cause the people pain and maybe push them to regime change (which never happened, instead it's been decades of suffering).

Cubans should be allowed to publicly protest against, or in support of, their government. And ultimately the Cuban people must be allowed to decide what kind of state they live under. Without American interference. We have done enough damage to Cuba over the years.

Here is what is controversial: saying that criticizing the BLM tweet for focusing solely on the embargo and never mentioning the abuses of the Cuban government is the equivalent of embracing the Proud Boys.

If you look at the picture posted, they are waving a flag that said "Trump Won", which is hardly the issue all those people in Miami took to the streets for. If you would ask them, I'm sure the vast majority would say they are there to show solidarity with the Cuban people. Many have family living on the island. It just looks like the Proud Boys decided to crash the party to get some publicity.
 

sacrament

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
2,119
The same argument every time. It is astonishing how little historical memory people have. You'd figure that after the 80th regime change operation people would realize that the main threat is US imperialism, and that calling for the overthrow of government while saying "maybe the US shouldn't invade, but we should do something!" isn't going to end up well. US intervention in Cuba ENSURES that the Cuban people will not be free no matter what. I will never understand those who cape for US imperialism under the guise of "human rights". It is a complete sham and everyone knows it. There is no situation where US regime change makes things better. That is why we must FIRST AND FOREMOST oppose it.

The US isn't the ones protesting here. We can do both. But you keep going back to American imperialism - that's a totally different thread. Go do that.

Meanwhile. Seems they have escalated to shooting...


There's some other videos where are beating the protesters to unconsciousness and arresting mother's and babies and shoving them into police cars.
 
Nov 13, 2020
147
Who is in here going to bat for the U.S. sending troops in? Who is asking for anything more than ending the U.S. embargo? Who is talking about any kind of intervention? But sure the U.S. boogie man haunts your dreams while you stick up for a cuban dictatorship. That for sure is real helpful for the cuban people and certainly less dangerous than McDonalds.

Damn I guess US intervention in Cuba is simply a boogie-man. The US has never attempted to replace the Cuban government with a pro-US one, and it certainly doesn't seek to do so now. The United States only has pure motives! In fact, the United States in not even involved in Cuba! At last, I see the light.

This is that same bullshit false dichotomy I covered in my earlier post. The same bullshit false dichotomy that the Cuban people themselves are rejecting.

The dichotomy I assume you are referring to is this. "If the Cuban government is overthrown, it'll be replaced by a US puppet government". Do you believe that to be incorrect? Do you believe that after spending decades, along with millions upon millions of dollars, that the US will just pack up and go once the government is actually gone? If only that were true!
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
If US intervention is off the table (as it should be), what exactly is the plan to overthrow the Cuban government by people here? Do people want like UN councils or something? Because the current UN stance is nothing like that.
 

Skyscourge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2020
1,857
I never said that. I do not support any crimes against the Cuban people, whether it be by the current government or by the United States. But the United States has by FAR caused more death, tourture, and devastation to the island than this government has. If you ask me to choose, I choose the lesser evil. Is that not the moral thing to do? Or does choosing the lesser evil only apply to voting in US elections and nothing else?



I want to US to stop interfering in Cuban affairs. I never said I wanted it to disappear. Unless you are saying that the very existence of the United States hinges on it being an imperialist state. In which case, you are far more radical than even me.
This is some real "you gotta hand it to Isil" shit here. Cubans shouldn't have to choose between either of those, both U.S. intervention and the Cuban government are bad and both need to be done away with. This is like saying we should allow the current CCP to exist because they are the only ones keeping the U.S. from becoming the only global hegemony. Saying that the current regime in Cuba is what is keeping U.S. intervention out is a framing that we should reject.
 
OP
OP
Feb 14, 2018
3,083
I never expected posters on ERA to spit on the views of the BLM movement and embrace the views of the Proud Boys, but here we are.



The simple fact is that the United States wants to overthrow the Cuban government in order to install their own puppet government. They want to return to the days where US interests owned 75% of the arable land, 50% of the sugar industry, and 90% of the electric and transportation industry. Plus significant ownership over other industries such as mining, tobacco, timber and others. It is part of a broader program for American sumpremcy, which nearly ties into white supremacy, as it has historically. That is why you see BLM oppose US backed regime change and why the Proud Boys support it. You can have issues with the Cuban government. It does have many, many issues. BUT, so long as the United States is constantly breathing down their neck, the existing Cuban government is the only thing standing in the way of Cuba becoming a US colony again. That is why it is most important to fight for the US to stop intervening in Cuba before attempting to fight against the Cuban government. Those posters who ignore this fact are basically carrying water for US imperialism, and stating that they do not give a shit if Cuba becomes a US colony again so long as the current government is ousted.

The protest supporters here have absolutely not aligned themselves with the GOP or the Proud Boys or any other white supremacist group, and using the positions of those groups to attempt to discredit the protests is a bad faith argument.

The posters in this thread don't decide the order of operations here. The Cuban people are asking for changes from their own government. In response they are being silenced, arrested, beaten, and killed. Your insistence on protecting the Cuban regime until the U.S. has changed its policies amounts to tone policing of the Cuban protestors.
 
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Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,628
It's like:

- Or you defend the people of cuban, aka their governament

- Or you are with GOP, support US military intervention, proud boys, trump and that shit.

Chose 1.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,265
Damn I guess US intervention in Cuba is simply a boogie-man. The US has never attempted to replace the Cuban government with a pro-US one, and it certainly doesn't seek to do so now. The United States only has pure motives! In fact, the United States in not even involved in Cuba! At last, I see the light.



The dichotomy I assume you are referring to is this. "If the Cuban government is overthrown, it'll be replaced by a US puppet government". Do you believe that to be incorrect? Do you believe that after spending decades, along with millions upon millions of dollars, that the US will just pack up and go once the government is actually gone? If only that were true!
The false dichotomy of either you "defend the revolution" or "support American intervention." That is a bullshit false dichotomy and the Cuban people themselves are saying as much. Shut up, listen, and heed their call for international solidarity—it's not a call to uncritically cape for their government, and God knows it's not a call for you to accuse anyone expressing solidarity with the protesters as "adopting the views of the Proud Boys." That is a fucking bullshit accusation and I resent it. There was literally 1 person in this thread who has made a call for the US to intervene, and that poster is banned.
 
Nov 13, 2020
147
This is some real "you gotta hand it to Isil" shit here. Cubans shouldn't have to choose between either of those, both U.S. intervention and the Cuban government are bad and both need to be done away with. This is like saying we should allow the current CCP to exist because they are the only ones keeping the U.S. from becoming the only global hegemony. Saying that the current regime in Cuba is what is keeping U.S. intervention out is a framing that we should reject.

Both need to be done away with. Very good! It is just like how both Donald Trump and Joe Biden were awful and needed to be done away with. But in the short term there needs to be a choice. As for what you said about framing. The current government is the one which kicked the United States out. The United States, in order to get back in, has sought to overthrow the government through a variety of means. It is clear that the United States at least, opperates on the framework of "Once we overthrow the government, we're back in business!" Also please do not call people ISIS supporters. It is incredibly offensive to me, as a Muslim who has been opposed to ISIS and Islamic extremism from the beginning.
 

sacrament

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
2,119
Damn I guess US intervention in Cuba is simply a boogie-man. The US has never attempted to replace the Cuban government with a pro-US one, and it certainly doesn't seek to do so now. The United States only has pure motives! In fact, the United States in not even involved in Cuba! At last, I see the light.



The dichotomy I assume you are referring to is this. "If the Cuban government is overthrown, it'll be replaced by a US puppet government". Do you believe that to be incorrect? Do you believe that after spending decades, along with millions upon millions of dollars, that the US will just pack up and go once the government is actually gone? If only that were true!

You just have to say "free Cuba". You can't even do that.

If US intervention is off the table (as it should be), what exactly is the plan to overthrow the Cuban government by people here? Do people want like UN councils or something? Because the current UN stance is nothing like that.

I dunno... The US will probably need to do something if things go truly wobbly. There are people with familial lines between the nations so some action will need to be taken. Plus, if it is just the people v the Govt the people will (and are) going to be killed.

I'd hope the UN would do something, but like you said it's not on the plan. It's disappointing. Easy to say "let the people decide" then do nothing. That shit just ends up with more Nedas (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Neda_Agha-Soltan).

I don't know a good answer. I agree that the US is not the ideal here but maybe something mediated with Canada or Mexico.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,247
The false dichotomy of either you "defend the revolution" or "support American intervention." That is a bullshit false dichotomy and the Cuban people themselves are saying as much. Shut up, listen, and heed their call for international solidarity—it's not a call to uncritically cape for their government, and God knows it's not a call for you to accuse anyone expressing solidarity with the protesters as "adopting the views of the Proud Boys." That is a fucking bullshit accusation and I resent it. There was literally 1 person in this thread who has made a call for the US to intervene, and that poster is banned.

Great post. Well said.

And to be honest, people don't give a fuck about the Cuban people, they just want to larp as communists online.
 

Arugala

Member
May 21, 2021
716
Both need to be done away with. Very good! It is just like how both Donald Trump and Joe Biden were awful and needed to be done away with. But in the short term there needs to be a choice. As for what you said about framing. The current government is the one which kicked the United States out. The United States, in order to get back in, has sought to overthrow the government through a variety of means. It is clear that the United States at least, opperates on the framework of "Once we overthrow the government, we're back in business!" Also please do not call people ISIS supporters. It is incredibly offensive to me, as a Muslim who has been opposed to ISIS and Islamic extremism from the beginning.

If the jack boot fits. Funny how authoritarianism is bad when it effects you but it's fine for others.
 

Skyscourge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2020
1,857
Both need to be done away with. Very good! It is just like how both Donald Trump and Joe Biden were awful and needed to be done away with. But in the short term there needs to be a choice. As for what you said about framing. The current government is the one which kicked the United States out. The United States, in order to get back in, has sought to overthrow the government through a variety of means. It is clear that the United States at least, opperates on the framework of "Once we overthrow the government, we're back in business!" Also please do not call people ISIS supporters. It is incredibly offensive to me, as a Muslim who has been opposed to ISIS and Islamic extremism from the beginning.
I was referring to the dril tweet, that you don't need to ever give credit to groups that don't deserve it, but noted. What I don't understand from you is why you insist that the current government be kept in place, even against the will of the people. Does the need to fight against U.S. influence override the peoples' right of self-determination? Even in the face of a government that has been actively suppressing speech and executing dissidents?
 
Nov 13, 2020
147
And there it is, "The United States should do something". Straight out of the Operation Mongoose playbook. I suggest people in this thread read through the paper. It is very eye opening.


Areas will be taken and held. If necessary, the popular movement will appeal for help to the free nations of the Western Hemisphere. The United States, if possible in concert with other Western Hemisphere nations, will then give open support to the Cuban peoples' revolt. Such support will include military force, as necessary.

 

Arugala

Member
May 21, 2021
716
The false dichotomy of either you "defend the revolution" or "support American intervention." That is a bullshit false dichotomy and the Cuban people themselves are saying as much. Shut up, listen, and heed their call for international solidarity—it's not a call to uncritically cape for their government, and God knows it's not a call for you to accuse anyone expressing solidarity with the protesters as "adopting the views of the Proud Boys." That is a fucking bullshit accusation and I resent it. There was literally 1 person in this thread who has made a call for the US to intervene, and that poster is banned.

This right here. Put together more eloquently than i could.
 

Rogue74

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,775
Miami, FL
Both need to be done away with. Very good! It is just like how both Donald Trump and Joe Biden were awful and needed to be done away with. But in the short term there needs to be a choice. As for what you said about framing. The current government is the one which kicked the United States out. The United States, in order to get back in, has sought to overthrow the government through a variety of means. It is clear that the United States at least, opperates on the framework of "Once we overthrow the government, we're back in business!" Also please do not call people ISIS supporters. It is incredibly offensive to me, as a Muslim who has been opposed to ISIS and Islamic extremism from the beginning.

Wait. Now YOU get to be offended? But when you call us Proud Boys we are supposed to just take it?

Pot. Kettle. Black.
 
OP
OP
Feb 14, 2018
3,083
If US intervention is off the table (as it should be), what exactly is the plan to overthrow the Cuban government by people here? Do people want like UN councils or something? Because the current UN stance is nothing like that.
Realistically the Cuban government is not going to be overthrown, which is why all the concern about how if we support the protestors we endorse a U.S. puppet government rings hollow. Asking for an end to authoritarianism and police brutality in Cuba will not cause Diaz-Canel to suddenly relinquish power to some right-wing opposition.

The only consistent and widespread request for intervention I've seen from actual protestors is a request for satellite internet so the regime can't silence them and they can expose the government's actions. There is no actual plan to depose the government even though many protestors want regime change. Many of the opposition members are Cuban leftists and are not predisposed to create a new government favorable to the U.S.
 

Tallshortman

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,649
ACAB except for Cuban cops defending the revolution eh? (Which is actually the most disgusting hypocritical bs ever for someone to say ACAB but then gloss over Cuban police repression, like extremely dirt of the earth scummy)(unbelievably fucking trash)(actual absurdity, absolute betrayal of the ideals of human rights and progressivism)

It really really shouldn't be hard for people to call for the end of the embargo, and for the right for the Cuban people to express dissent freely. It should not be hard for expressions of solidarity with peaceful protestors. DSA, you actually can fuck off. Take more lessons from Bernie.



Yep it blows my mind Bernie knows you can criticize the embargo and blame the cuban government for economic and human rights abuses while some posters on here haven't also figured out how to walk and chew gum. Using the embargo to gloss over the plethora of problems with the communist regime in Cuba is just unbelievable.

I never expected posters on ERA to spit on the views of the BLM movement and embrace the views of the Proud Boys, but here we are.

This post is so nonsensical I don't even know where to start. Complete false equivalency that any level of good faith logic would suss out. If some people part of BLM say something wrong I'm going to call it out. Why would I automatically support everything someone associated with BLM says just because I support racial equality?
 
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Nov 9, 2017
3,777
The dichotomy I assume you are referring to is this. "If the Cuban government is overthrown, it'll be replaced by a US puppet government". Do you believe that to be incorrect? Do you believe that after spending decades, along with millions upon millions of dollars, that the US will just pack up and go once the government is actually gone? If only that were true!

The mask slipped off and you say it all right here. You are more worried about the US making some kind of power play than the lives of those suffering on the island. How about prioritizing improving Cuban's lives regardless of how it benefits either government?
 

Arugala

Member
May 21, 2021
716
Nov 13, 2020
147
I was referring to the dril tweet, that you don't need to ever give credit to groups that don't deserve it, but noted. What I don't understand from you is why you insist that the current government be kept in place, even against the will of the people. Does the need to fight against U.S. influence override the peoples' right of self-determination? Even in the face of a government that has been actively suppressing speech and executing dissidents?

There is no self-determination under US dominantion. That is my point. The Cuban people deserve full freedom. They probably won't get it under this government yes. But they definitely won't get in under the jackboot of the United States. That is why the first prerequisite of a free Cuba is to end US imperialist ambition there, and then let the Cuban people decide freely what to do. Without doing that, there will be no self-determination for the people of Cuba.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,440
Man, you know, I just really need to know what the Proud Boys think in order to get a read on a given political situation.
 

sacrament

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
2,119
And there it is, "The United States should do something". Straight out of the Operation Mongoose playbook. I suggest people in this thread read through the paper. It is very eye opening.





Christ..no one is endorsing militarism. And as others have said, who have family there, the protesters aren't advocating for a US led intervention or support from it. And the US isn't doing anything other than saying stupid shit about refugees. So.. status quo.
 

Skyscourge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2020
1,857
There is no self-determination under US dominantion. That is my point. The Cuban people deserve full freedom. They probably won't get it under this government yes. But they definitely won't get in under the jackboot of the United States. That is why the first prerequisite of a free Cuba is to end US imperialist ambition there, and then let the Cuban people decide freely what to do. Without doing that, there will be no self-determination for the people of Cuba.
I don't even neccessarily disagree with this assessment, but that's cold comfort for the people who need change now. Also, the U.S. wouldn't be the only party trying to exert influence over Cuba.