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ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Got my 4-0 in the Gauntlet, went with Sivir/Akshan/Zed (I'm more comfortable with the Ionia than the Demacia build), Pirate Burn and... couldn't stop myself bringing Bandle Tree. It did well, it never got banned, but I always banned elusives so I didn't just get run over.

That patch where they buffed quite a few underperforming things was good, at least the community thought it was the new direction after Irelia/Azir cancer
The hardcore community needs to get it in their head that they won't be changing the meta up massively every two weeks. That's never going to happen again, and shouldn't happen. But they won't.

Skipping a patch with a "but maybe we'll do something" is silly though.
 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
On the one hand, the patch is going to undeniably make the Worlds meta better and I'm glad that it happened. On the other hand, it comes off as embarrassing as it shows them caving on several things that they previously were really steadfast about not changing.

Firstly, the Azir Irelia nerf comes off as a reaction to seeing it take 2 regions in Seasonals and them being afraid that it'll end up being a major part in the upcoming metagame where spectators will bitch about the deck regardless of its power level. Nothing about its performance in the past 3 or so weeks is outside of how well it's been doing since the last nerfs it got, it just seems like a strong deck that got targeted because people have been complaining about the deck for months now. If they were going to nerf the deck, they absolutely should have nerfed it during the expansion patch rather than rushing out one now because outside of the bad PR of it potentially doing well in Worlds there's nothing different about how problematic it is now vs pre-expansion.

Then there's the Sivir.dec nerfs. It's really weird that they nerfed Flurry at all. The Ionia version of the deck has been consistently been outperformed by the Demacia version in virtually every metric, and again that deck apparently wasn't nerf-worthy a couple weeks ago so why is a card that currently only sees play in a currently outclassed deck getting nerfed? If the problem is how it leads to uninteractive burst kills, why not nerf the cards that are appearing in a bunch of those sorts of decks such as Twin Disciplines?

And then there's the 3 Shurima cards. I don't disagree with any of the individual changes, (although I wish they could find a good templating for Shaped Stone to keep the +3 in Sun Disc decks) but similar to Azir Irelia people have been complaining about these cards for literally months and it comes off as them caving to nerf all 3 of them in one go. These changes absolutely should have been part of the Expansion patch, I get that Sivir Demacia was a relatively recent deck so maybe it ended up being established too late for them to be able to push nerfs to it in the patch, but the Ionia version was also very problematic and could have used a nerf. Also no changes to the Lulu Zed deck makes me scared because that deck was pretty nuts pre-nerfs and it didn't get hurt at all by the changes.

Again, I'm glad the changes happened. Sivir Demacia was IMO a tier 0 deck even with the new Discard deck being a genuine counter, and it's resistance to being targeted (Discard and Zed Lulu were the only decks with a solidly positive win rate vs it) meant that it was probably just going to completely take over the tournament. It just feels like Riot can't really agree on a good rate at which to patch their games, with any hope this whole thing will be a learning experience for them and they won't just go back to insisting on 14 week patch cycles thinking that it's a good cadence to balance their game.
 

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,492
On the other hand, it comes off as embarrassing as it shows them caving on several things that they previously were really steadfast about not changing.
Theres is nothing embarrassing about changing your mind.

The worst thing you can have as a game dev is a big ego and keeping a decision just because you said it publicly.

Theres no shame in changing your mind being a dev is about making what you believe is the best decision at the current moment and various factors will change that perception over time in a Live design situation.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,576
and now shape stone is worse because it was overperforming in 1 landmark decks
Shaped Stone is so good in offensive decks that you would run extra landmarks just for it. It shouldn't be a 1m card that beats out 2m cards. It was ridiculous having to never be able to block if they floated just 1m. +2/+1 is still very playable for 1m, especially with all the new landmarks that can be easily summoned without losing tempo.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
So why were these changes not included with the patch?

Just farming negative Karma for no reason.

I agree with most of the changes except Flurry of Fists. That card is really only great in one deck and even then its a 3 of.

Also Nicmakesplays on suicide watch over no Eye of the Dragon nerf.


And again, the precedence has been set that they have ability to hotfix problematic cards every week... they just chose to keep those cards in that state for 4 months.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Yeah the Flurry of Fists change seems silly, it's basically a dead card outside of like specific combos that require other cards/interactions. There's no base unit that cares about the card.

Anyway I agree with Swim in general though that the meta is overall still pretty great. Bandle Tree has massively helped my love of the game, it's perfectly in my wheelhouse. I know the full aggro build is much better but I love decks that can switch game plans up so massively.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
I am actually surprised at the percentage of strong to weak cards in Bandle City. Cards that I thought would suck ended up having a home in a solid deck.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
I am actually surprised at the percentage of strong to weak cards in Bandle City. Cards that I thought would suck ended up having a home in a solid deck.
I feel like Bandle City deckbuilding is very diverse, there's a lot of meta calls you can make, cards you can slot in and out. I don't think I've seen the same Bandle deck twice.

Bandle Mayor makes things drastically more playable too, turns out costing 1 less makes most of those dual region cards kinda crazy
 

TheWorthyEdge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,824
Senna/Veigar in expeditions is a good time. Though...I feel when it comes to 4 drops Watcher on the Isles is much better value than Veigar.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Is it me or is Sion Draven functionally a tier 0 deck? It wins most relevant match ups in the game and cannot be targetted in a tournament setting.

Someone educate me.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Is it me or is Sion Draven functionally a tier 0 deck? It wins most relevant match ups in the game and cannot be targetted in a tournament setting.

Someone educate me.
It doesn't have tier 0 winrates yet, does it? Mobalytics high winrate build is 54.7% which is good but not even close to what like Sivir/Akshan were pulling.

The nerfs might change that but it isn't there yet.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
It doesn't have tier 0 winrates yet, does it? Mobalytics high winrate build is 54.7% which is good but not even close to what like Sivir/Akshan were pulling.

The nerfs might change that but it isn't there yet.
A few factors to consider:

*Most players are still playing unrefined versions of the deck and random piles. That is deflating the stats, the versions that are refined are pulling in tier 1 winrates.

*The deck actually wins or goes even against most match ups. It specifically beats Akshan Sivir decks and it also beats Ezrael Draven. This is not reflected as well on the stats but you can check pro player opinions and matches to see, which brings me to my next point. I think only specific control decks and Bandle City decks can beat this deck consistently or if you can manage to go faster than it.

*This deck is actually kinda hard to play. Not Lee Sin or Karma level but at least around Ez Draven level, probably more. That's putting a limit on its winrate.

*It's the most played deck archetype in the game right now which means a lot of players who aren't as skilled using it which always skews winrates down. It's like the early Azir Irelia problem, Riot was claiming that WRs were trending downwards and that was because every type of player was joining in on the bandwagon. This takes time to stabilize.

*Most of the top ladder players right now are Sion Draven players and its making a high percentage of the top spot.


Of course this is just one side of the argument for why it might be the best deck in the game. Here are arguments against it:

*Since there are so many versions of the deck out there, it becomes hard to play around and tech against it. The deck can be played in numerous ways and once a singular deck crystallizes its difficult to target.

*The decks that might do well against it aren't well represented yet because the meta hasn't stabilized. Maybe Anivia decks go well against it but not enough of those on Ladder. Maybe the Ionia control decks can go well against it because they can Will or Stun the Sion. Maybe Freeze is better against this deck like a Sejuani Plunder deck or Ashe Noxus.

*The deck is also the type that would do better in an unrefined meta similar to Darkness (which has seen trending downwards slightly). Once meta stabilizes it will have more bad match ups to contend with.


Of course this is me just postulating, it's not set in stone yet. The deck definitely has high tier 1 capability and is in contention for best deck in the game. I think the smarter players might figure out some holes in the deck and target it for worlds.
 

niaobx

Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,062
Imo new Sion Discard is really good and will be a nerf candidate. It has all the good stuff of the old discard + it never runs out of steam because the new cards don't really get discarded but transformed into new units
 

Kyuur

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,539
Canada
Loving the Teemo support, been playing nothing but shrooms since the expansion dropped. Still refining my version, not running Caitlyn yet but the prank package really helps control things and the new finishers are great.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Lurkers cleaning house for me. These Bandle decks fold to Death from Below.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
here's Swim's take on the meta



I've been sick and unable to play for a few days so I'm a little out of touch

but yeah no doubt Sion is Tier 1, I just wonder if Minimorph keeps him out of Tier 0
 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
Is it me or is Sion Draven functionally a tier 0 deck? It wins most relevant match ups in the game and cannot be targetted in a tournament setting.

It's reasonably targetable in tourneys, a lot of people are bringing triple control into it. Ionian cards like Palm and Will are pretty strong and the deck runs little interaction so something like Karma into burn often gets there. Anivia freezes can stall for a long time. Darkness isn't especially popular in tournaments currently but it's great into it. And Plunder is being slept on IMO, it's still pretty good and does fine into Discard. If you can turbo out a flipped Sej the deck just loses, it has no ways of killing her and it's very rough for the deck to push through repeatable frostbite or stop Dreadway+GP from blowing up everything. Here's some of its bad matchups:

Darkness:41.5%
Nami Zoe: 43.5%
Plunder: 46.5%
Zoe Lee: 30%
Anivia: 39%
Thresh Viego Ionia: 40.5%
Ez Karma: 34.5%

All of those are ladder win rates vs what are generally considered extremely high skill decks, so the actual MU win rates in a tournament environment are likely far worse. You can absolutely build a tournament lineup to target Discard Midrange, which was 100% not the case with Akshan Sivir Demacia. Akshan Sivir Demacia pre-Bandle Wood was tier 0, it legit had 1 "bad" matchup and only 2 other decks that it was below 50% vs while having way above a 55% win rate. Draven Sion P&Z had a dominating matchup vs the best deck in the format and sat around a 55% win rate while losing to a lot of decks that are way more popular and relevant in competitive play than ladder, it's not close to tier 0.

The big deck going into worlds is Nami+another region. The big deck variant that's been popping up runs Zoe and Targon. A lot of people have been saying it's 100% the deck to beat, although the deck is a lot more vulnerable to just getting ran over than TF Fizz was. The deck is very hard to pilot which holds its ladder performance back, but it's very strong with a good pilot and it's really hard for just about any deck to stop tons of super buff elusives which is what the deck does when it enacts its gameplan.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Alright I am convinced Sion Draven isn't tier 0.

But fuck that Lost Soul card and it being able to grind out other Midrange decks.

Tournament meta looks to be some Nami Targon deck (Zoe or Fizz), PnZ + Noxus Draven deck (with Caitlyn/Ezrael or Sion version) and some Poppy deck most likely.

At least it's technically new cards.


I got Gauntler win with Shen/Jarvan, Lurkers and Turbo Thralls. I banned the Noxus PnZ Draven decks. Was a struggle against some of the newer decks but I won last match due to player error on their part. Nami Zoe is no joke man.
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Top 16 Decks Brought for World:

Bandle tree - 9 (although one player brought 3 of them so that skews results)
Zoe/Nami - 8
Draven/Caitlyn or Ezrael - 8
Sivir/Demacia - 7
Lulu/Poppy/Zed (basically Rally decks) - 5
Plunder - 4
Draven/Sion - 3
Thralls - 1
Darkness - 1
TF/GP - 1
Shen/Jarvan - 1


The line up to bring is basically Zoe/Nami, PnZ + Noxus (preferably the non-Sion version) and Sivir/Demacia, Bandle Tree or a Poppy Rally deck.

I think with a formulated meta, it should be easier to target. But these are the tournament staple decks for sure.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Got Prime Glory with Lost Souls Caitlyn/Draven, Darkness and Sivir Akshan Demacia. Pretty smooth run, all 3 of my decks had outstanding value and grind potential. Didn't run into much meta decks.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Can't fucking believe I lost my Gauntlet because Bandle Tree rolled me a Desert Naturalist
You can play some cards without their on play effects and I believe you can do this with Desert Naturalist. When given the option to chose from two, you can instead chose the Skip button (or whatever the Pass turn blue button is). This allows you to do stuff like summon Swamp Dredger without discarding a card (and not getting the draw effect).
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
You can play some cards without their on play effects and I believe you can do this with Desert Naturalist. When given the option to chose from two, you can instead chose the Skip button (or whatever the Pass turn blue button is). This allows you to do stuff like summon Swamp Dredger without discarding a card (and not getting the draw effect).
You can't with Desert Naturalist, trust me, I tried. all I needed to win was a Shurima unit and it wouldn't give me the Skip button

edit: oh fuck me you can do it, it's still called the Summon button, I thought it was Skip but it didn't show so I assumed it wouldn't work. It also still does the Play effect, it just doesn't target anything
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Yeah it might be called the Summon button when that happens.

There was a big Reddit post earlier where someone got Ruinous Acolyte in their Bandle Tree deck and couldn't play it because they would lose. Someone pointed out that you could just use the "Summon" option without the play effect. That compelled someone else to make a list of cards for which you can skip the play effects.

Turns out that Ruinous Acolyte's effect can't be skipped like some of the other cards in the game so the original post was still true.
 

Boat Times

Made the Grade
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,565
Can't fucking believe I lost my Gauntlet because Bandle Tree rolled me a Desert Naturalist

Something like this has happened to me twice with Shurima and Bandle Tree so now whenever I see the Shurima/Bandle card pop up I make sure to immediately play it. I also didn't realize you could skip Naturalist's effect. I've gotten Ruinous Acolyte as well, it SUUUCKS.
 

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,492
Aloof travelers are pretty nutty.

They should probably be a 3/3 since they can win games solo if you discard your opponents win condition.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
If all Aloof Travelers did was Draw/Discard highest card for the opponent then it would be insane. It drawing one card for you is an extra nutty effect on top. It just does too much as a single card.

Hell a 4 mana 3/4 Draw a Card is a playable card in the game. We have had 4 mana 3/3 Draw 1 that have been usable (though that's a more tutored effect to be fair).

It's a very problematic card in general. Stuff like FTR feels so bad into it. It's also double bad because it's a multi-region card so many BC decks and PnZ decks run it so you see it more often than you should.


Lee Sin is supposed to be a deck that beats control deck as it is a dedicated combo deck but as my Darkness deck I have never lost to Lee Sin. I am pretty sure that match up is like 9-1 in favor of Darkness as I have 3 Aloofs and 3 Darkness plus the Eye of the Dragons do absolutely nothing against Darkness anyway.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
What is happening with skins and overall economy of the game. After Ruined King event, LoL got like 6 skin lineups (not 6 skins, but 6 events/collections totaling like 30-40 individual skins)

Going to watch the tournament, I would root for the freshlobster if he was in it, but now someone from EU like Alan. The patch is definitely not the most exciting one, feels like a bit of "Jesus take the wheel" when you deploy a major expansion and call it a world's patch. In contrast, LoL world championship which takes place AFTER LoR has Akshan (and a later one) heroes disabled. As a spectator, it is whatever, will be the first major tournament after the expansion and hotfix. Could go either way: could be diverse and fun, or could be dominated by Bandlewood cards too much.

I just hope we aren't going to see many Lee Sin or Bandlewood Landmark decks, because those are really boring to watch.

That skip-effect thing should be far more intuitive. The pass or whatever must come in the form of centered-card popup, not the priority pass when the card is deployed.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Instead of Lee Sin and Bandlewood Tree decks, we will be seeing way more Zoe Nami elusives, Draven PnZ discard decks (basically Lost Souls if we are being honest) and Poppy Rally decks.

There will be some spicy stuff but that is the meta to beat.

Lee Sin is garbage right now IMO. Can't even win against Darkness.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Thank god Lee is falling out.

I don't mind control, but watching Lee-Sin decks play was a lot like watching Blue vs Blue MTG, where neither player does anything because it will get countered/punished, and instead the game is a huge chicken experience where eventually, someone gets more "finishers" in hand, and flips the coin.

I don't know much about meta, but I always prefer to spectate games where players interacting every turn. If that list a lil above is correct, then the meta looks skewed towards beatdown with value-units/pumps, which is at least interesting to watch.

Yordlefucks vs Nami vs Draven vs Plunder vs Sivir vs Rally

Long games in Runeterra are pretty boring to watch because many players tend to rope, for good reasons, but it detracts from the spectator experience when one game stretches to 20min+. It is like watching LoL games with no kills, where either team is just scaling farming minions and trading objectives...

Not even a championship skin for worlds... Victorious Victor! I had hopes that economy in LoR will someday find the use for shards, but seeing that even the paid options are MIA... I will probably be a millionaire, especially if I stop picking Xerath in expeditions.
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Latest Meta Report in.

lor-meta.com

Meta Report #11

Patch 2.15 - Week 1

Some thoughts:

*Draven Sion looking kinda Tier 0 not going to lie with those match up spreads. It only loses to Zoe Nami, the other tier 0 deck in the format and loses to basically nothing else.
*TF Gankplank Bandle City really wreaking havoc as a good answer against the Poppy decks.
*There are kind of way too many Poppy decks in the meta.
*Rubin showing why he is one of the best players and innovators, getting rank 1 with his burn deck (and of course its PnZ Noxus the best region combination right now).
*That Ziggs + Poppy Burn deck is a super degenerate deck. It's degenerate in that there is 0 synergy or reasoning behind the deck, it's just exploiting the most power crept cards in the game and jammed into one aggressive deck. It reminds me of Azir Burn pre-nerf cards when Shurima launched, only this one is much better.

This is the deck:



There are very clear 3-4 things that need addressing in the next patch:

*Discard package, definitely looking at stuff like Lost Souls. Way too easy to out grind the opponent with their bodies that draw cards and keep creating better copies of cards in hand while resulting in an easy to level up win condition in Sion. This also greatly boosts the Draven/Caitlyn/Ezrael control decks that can outgrind and out value everything.

*Poppy herself is overtuned but so is the Bandle City swarm package. Stuff like Bandle City Mayor is kinda insane for the value and tempo he provides. Just compare BC Mayor to Herald of Dragons... its just not fair.

*Obviously Nami is overtuned but I think some real addressing needs to be made against Elusives in general. Specifically Elusives + Rallies keeps being brought up as a problematic concept.

*It's not being shown in the stats but Aloof Travelers and Minimorphs are making decks with expensive win conditions and champions even more non-viable. Minimorph is a bit more fine then Aloof but still feels super bad as a Burst speed effective removal. Aloof Traveler I don't know how it got into the game allowing you to discard opponent champions with it.


We'll get a better picture post-world but this is where I am with what needs to happen sooner rather than later. It feels there are more "tier 0 tier" decks than ever before and so many decks have near endless value generation. Power creep has been most felt in this expansion I feel.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Straight-up lots of these yordles are too good.

It is like vanilla units stats + good effect, sorry you shouldn't have both. Either you get good stats, or good effect.
The cards that keep conjuring more cards, while providing good blockers/aggro units, are unfun.

At this point, I would much prefer deep rebalance/buff patches to fix many abandoned archtypes/champions.

Still not as bad as Irelia/Azir cancer...
 
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niaobx

Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,062
I just hope that they do something about Rally/4 mana rally. I am sick of trying to survive the constant aggression only to see that the opponent can just attack one more time.

Also Saltwater Scourge is boring as hell
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Just saw a sneak peak of the group stage and the region combinations they have brought.

Out of the 2 groups today with 8 players... EVERYONE brought Noxus + PnZ. That means Draven will be in ALL matches.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Top row of casters - meh!
Bottom row of casters - yes!

Valve promised 1 MILLION DORRA for their Artifact tournament, while peasant Riot can only afford 200k... Inferior card game confirmed
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
It's at least cool that everyone is going home with something. It's not a lot of money but this is where it starts I guess. Riot needs to pool the Event pass into the tournament/seasonal for bigger prizes.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
It's at least cool that everyone is going home with something. It's not a lot of money but this is where it starts I guess. Riot needs to pool the Event pass into the tournament/seasonal for bigger prizes.

But everyone is already home!

I have no problem with prize money, was just making fun more of the Artifact where they never had the tournament, right? It was all just a marketing bullshit where Valve's commitments evaporated as soon as Artifact launched.

Going to root for Alan > Everyone Else EU > Everyone Else
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
The tears are already flowing (from Artefy).

USA on the board!

Pingping with the AGGRO line up.
 
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Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,576
Nami decks and their matchups are at least interactive.

Lots of people will give Realkey flak for that last play there, but I get it. He figures 2 more draws for any cards that do 2 dmg > losing this turn by attacking into a Sharpsight.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Damn that last match was high level from Aikido. I don't like Rummaging away Thermobeam at the end, should have used it on Shelly right there and then. That was his only lose condition if the buff on Shelly went through.

2 spots for NA basically already confirmed.
 
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ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Everyone gets paid at worlds? That's cool. I always like tournament structures that give something. Never liked tournaments where it was basically come top 3 or you wasted your time.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,513
Hm, maybe making Elusive be something you lose for the rest of the turn after attacking could work?