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Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Makes a lot of sense thematically for the region, though it's not really a great fit for any of the champs. Maybe Azir.

• Skarner would be fun grabbing and applying silence.
• Nasus could have a Fury thing growing with every strike, or something similar to Fiora.
• Rammus could be something about being a tank and maybe reflecting damage instead of dealing it himself
• Azir could have ephemeral sand soldiers, or a structure like Trundle's
• Xerath could start with the coffin, leveling up with spell casts or damage, and eventually having an attack similar to Lee's kick where the unit doesn't actually do combat, but casts a spell stunning and blasting the enemy.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,510
• Skarner would be fun grabbing and applying silence.
• Nasus could have a Fury thing growing with every strike, or something similar to Fiora.
• Rammus could be something about being a tank and maybe reflecting damage instead of dealing it himself
• Azir could have ephemeral sand soldiers, or a structure like Trundle's
• Xerath could start with the coffin, leveling up with spell casts or damage, and eventually having an attack similar to Lee's kick where the unit doesn't actually do combat, but casts a spell stunning and blasting the enemy.
Skarner having Challenger and then leveling up to Silence enemies blocking him feels really good, thematically.
Nasus... yeah, I think Fury works. Fiora's thing is because she takes over a game if you feed her, plus tying into her one vs one challenges thing. For a special mechanic, maybe work on Nasus' lifesteal? Or have him be a raid boss where once he's gotten X power from Fury he levels up into beast mode.
Reflecting damage would work really well for Rammus. That feels like it should be a keyword, actually.
Azir being Ephemeral focus with a Daybreak component would be cool. He'd want some kind of efficient It's Always Day effect somewhere, though - ephemeral + only getting max bonus out of one unit per turn = feelsbad.
I like the idea of Xerath "breaking out" of the coffin over time, plus being a burn/direct damage champ more than a swing in one.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
3,383
Enjoying the game put I'm starting to quit the game/surrender in the labs after I they decide to boost their card right before i'm about to attack.

Removed, was in-appropriate.

Edit: Sorry, I get frustrated when I lose time after time
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Lux + Leona deck I built.

Sunburn-lor-deck-bt4sb4hh40qe6e1h15mg.png


Really strong concept with a lot of healing and removal. Triple Starshaping for late game finisher though usually you will win by out controlling most decks (except for the super greedy ramp decks).

Guiding Touch I have 3 of but I am really searching for another unit to slot in its stead, maybe the 2 mana Mageseeker card goes in. I might even think about cutting Remembrance mostly because I usually do plan to play something on turns 1-3 unlike most other Lux decks. Blinding Assault might be a decent option too or Grizzled Rangers.

I know I keep posting these Daybreak Leona decks but that's all I have from the new expansion for now. I crafted the cards I thought would be the best for the amount of resources I had and they have paid in dividends already. I kinda want to play some Taric, Trundle decks but don't have them.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
3,383
Lux + Leona deck I built.

Sunburn-lor-deck-bt4sb4hh40qe6e1h15mg.png


Really strong concept with a lot of healing and removal. Triple Starshaping for late game finisher though usually you will win by out controlling most decks (except for the super greedy ramp decks).

Guiding Touch I have 3 of but I am really searching for another unit to slot in its stead, maybe the 2 mana Mageseeker card goes in. I might even think about cutting Remembrance mostly because I usually do plan to play something on turns 1-3 unlike most other Lux decks. Blinding Assault might be a decent option too or Grizzled Rangers.

I know I keep posting these Daybreak Leona decks but that's all I have from the new expansion for now. I crafted the cards I thought would be the best for the amount of resources I had and they have paid in dividends already. I kinda want to play some Taric, Trundle decks but don't have them.

Looks interesting and may have to see if I have the cards to build this deck. thanks.

Edit: LOL, not yet as I still need to unlock one or 2 of the champions
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,574
Having fun with expeditions again. Went 7-2 with Zed/Lulu. Hope the fun lasts long enough for me to finish some region roads for cards before going back to constructed.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
So apparently if you Whimsy a Mindsplitter, its stuns won't go off in the next round. How does that make sense? The stun effect is round start on the next round when the effect of Whimsy should have cleared. I wonder if Hush works like this too on the card because if so then this card is a lot worse than people are thinking. I don't think it is supposed to work this way.

I just lost a winnable game of this lol.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,574
So apparently if you Whimsy a Mindsplitter, its stuns won't go off in the next round. How does that make sense? The stun effect is round start on the next round when the effect of Whimsy should have cleared. I wonder if Hush works like this too on the card because if so then this card is a lot worse than people are thinking. I don't think it is supposed to work this way.

I just lost a winnable game of this lol.
The picked targets are forgotten because of the silence. Most card games work with this type of logic.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Holy shit go check Swim's VOD from 55min in where he actually managed to outdo himself and rope TF EZ vs Leona Asol for over an hour for just one match. Insane.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,574
So then its a permanent effect if its considered forgotten? Man thats pretty bad if true since there are a lot of Hushes out there now.
Correct.
Holy shit go check Swim's VOD from 55min in where he actually managed to outdo himself and rope TF EZ vs Leona Asol for over an hour for just one match. Insane.
I watched that live. Seems only fair that he nabbed 3 Vengeances since his 2 of his Ez were literally in the bottom 3 of the deck. He would've been favored anyway.
 

jerd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
474
So apparently if you Whimsy a Mindsplitter, its stuns won't go off in the next round. How does that make sense? The stun effect is round start on the next round when the effect of Whimsy should have cleared. I wonder if Hush works like this too on the card because if so then this card is a lot worse than people are thinking. I don't think it is supposed to work this way.

I just lost a winnable game of this lol.

Something similar that actually won me a game that I didn't expect, a hushed regeneration unit won't regen the following turn. I assumed there was a kind of between turns phase where round end effects took place but definitely not the case
 

LightBang

Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,424
I'm a playing an aggro 1 mana followers deck. My version focused on spiders last season felt stronger but the deck is roughly built, kinda forced new cards in, even tho it's getting wins.

My other deck is a Vladimir heal deck. If it wasn't for me being experienced in Vladimir decks, I would probably be losing a lot. I think the heal followers archetype might be too weak for the meta, still there's various avenues to try and make it work.

Also is anyone getting the disappearing cards bug? It's really annoying.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,035
Hush on Infinite Mindsplitter only works on the turn it's played I think. I've seen it done later and it had no effect.

I know I keep posting these Daybreak Leona decks but that's all I have from the new expansion for now. I crafted the cards I thought would be the best for the amount of resources I had and they have paid in dividends already.
I'm surprised you don't have a full collection.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
The logic kind of tracks for that. Judgment never interacts with enemy units, it just tells your unit to strike everything. The spellshield unit never touches the spell, just the attacker. Whereas Single Combat actually targets and interacts with the enemy so it fizzles.

I conceive that the "Strike" keyword is neither a spell nor skill. It makes sense that the strike should still go through... I am googling and it says that Lee's challenging kick would also go through the spell-shield. What happens when the unit survives and it is time to recall it?

Easily one of the least intuitive interactions so far.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Hush on Infinite Mindsplitter only works on the turn it's played I think. I've seen it done later and it had no effect.


I'm surprised you don't have a full collection.
I have mostly full collection on the pre Targon cards but going into the expansion I had 5 Champ wild cards and a bunch of other cards + shards not enough to craft whole Targon set. I started playing a month after Bilgewater came.
 

jerd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
474
I conceive that the "Strike" keyword is neither a spell nor skill. It makes sense that the strike should still go through... I am googling and it says that Lee's challenging kick would also go through the spell-shield. What happens when the unit survives and it is time to recall it?

Easily one of the least intuitive interactions so far.

It definitely denies the recall. For some reason I want to say the damage portion still goes through but that doesn't make much sense either
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
It definitely denies the recall. For some reason I want to say the damage portion still goes through but that doesn't make much sense either
The damage doesn't go through either. I actually had that situation arise yesterday, a Lee Sin was kicking my Yasuo and I played Bastion on Yasuo. The animation actually went off but Yasuo was neither recalled nor did I take damage from it. That whole play sequence actually resulted in me winning the game because otherwise he would have 20 to 0 me.



The 1 hour epic game with Swim.
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Man Lulu decks are mad toxic. That level up condition is too easy for the pay off and the general strength of the front loaded body.

Demacia with a power house Elusive support card is kinda obscene and then they Rally on top of the support cards which allow them to keep their big buffs.

My Swain/Leona deck has been doing the most work in this meta. Leviathan + Swain combo can't really be Hushed, the big bodies still get stunned. Culling Strike is huge against Lulu/Taric/Ramp/Daybreak which is like 90% of the meta. Ladder is starting to become more aggressive now so I probably won't be running Mindsplitter in this version of the deck (though it could potentially close out the game with Swain as like a 4th Leviathan option).

I see Swim is back to using a Darius deck....
 
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Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,574
3 for 3 in 7 win expeditions. Until people (or the algo) stop drafting greedy Targon decks with 0 fast pings, I'm going to keep drafting aggressively.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Targon the region has one huge weakness in that they have virtually no fast speed removal. It's vital that you pair it with a region that has a lot of fast speed responses (like Noxus or SI). Open attacking is super good against them for this reason. But that said their development punishments are off the charts.

Also people are starting to figure out Nocturne as a card and it's not that bad to be honest. I think the level up condition is a bit awkward but other wise he is alright. You just can't go all in on the Nightfall package, there are some standalone good Nightfall cards that you can pair with an aggressive SI deck.

Stalking Shadows will absolutely get nerfed in the future.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,678
Deep still dominant in expeditions, went 7-0 with it pretty easily and outpowers celestials because the best removal they have are kind of ineffective against deep in swarm mode.

I've cooled down on Lulu, her biggest weakness is that she tends to want to develop into attacks, while the meta is anything but.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,574
Targon the region has one huge weakness in that they have virtually no fast speed removal. It's vital that you pair it with a region that has a lot of fast speed responses (like Noxus or SI). Open attacking is super good against them for this reason. But that said their development punishments are off the charts.
Yup. And I assume it's by design that those region combos don't particularly synergize well atm.

Also people are starting to figure out Nocturne as a card and it's not that bad to be honest. I think the level up condition is a bit awkward but other wise he is alright. You just can't go all in on the Nightfall package, there are some standalone good Nightfall cards that you can pair with an aggressive SI deck.
I think the wonkiness of the deck often makes it not worth the effort to play imo. I almost feel like most decks with those good Nightfall cards are just better without Nocturne haha. But it's a solid Tier 2 deck, and he's certainly not garbo tier. I do think he has room to be refined.

Stalking Shadows will absolutely get nerfed in the future.
This feels to me like the single strongest card in the set. Just an amazing standalone beast of a draw card that imo is a near staple in any SI deck. I'm thinking of how I would run this in Deep.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
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Oct 25, 2017
13,665
I think you just play Nocturne in an Elise/Fearsome deck and use Nocturne as a second Skitterer. Like yeah Skitterer is just a better Nocturne in that deck but Skitterer is so broken in that deck that having another copy of it in the deck could be the answer. The only Nightfall cards you would be using are Onlooker, Doombeast, Unspeakable Horror and Nocturne.. all of which are very aggressive cards that you are probably using in that type of deck anyway.

This is what I am thinking:

unknown.png


You go fast with early fearsomes then finish with over the top burn. Fading Memory and Stalking Shadows to proc Nightfalls if need be. Probably needs like 1-2 more 1 drops in there like either 1-2 copies of Hapless or 1-2 copy of the Nightfall 1 drop.


LMFAOO @ this:

 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
After Glimpse Beyond, Deep Meditation, and Pilfered Goods, you think they would have hesitated before printing another 2 mana burst speed draw 2.
Glimpse Beyond was at Burst speed before?

That's hilarious. I do know that card draws should in general be burst speed but Glimpse Beyond interacts with the board and can beat various spells at Burst speed with no counter play. I am glad I didn't play the game in that state lol.

3 mana Burst draw 2 with condition seems just fine to me. Stalking Shadow has a downside of needing a minion heavy deck to hit right but the upside of allowing you to choose your card. The ephemeral is also a deck building cost and I guess that's why they made it 2 mana but I think being able to choose cancels that out.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,551
Glimpse Beyond was at Burst speed before?

That's hilarious. I do know that card draws should in general be burst speed but Glimpse Beyond interacts with the board and can beat various spells at Burst speed with no counter play. I am glad I didn't play the game in that state lol.

3 mana Burst draw 2 with condition seems just fine to me. Stalking Shadow has a downside of needing a minion heavy deck to hit right but the upside of allowing you to choose your card. The ephemeral is also a deck building cost and I guess that's why they made it 2 mana but I think being able to choose cancels that out.
Glimpse was Burst speed initially, yep.

Stalking Shadows is just nuts. It's not really getting much attention now, but it absolutely will be nerfed in the future because of its efficiency.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Why aren't people playing Ashe Noxus these days? It feels super well positioned in this meta.

*Actually puts up beefy units to contest against Ramp decks running Avalances and Icequakes. Can actually 1 turn kill them with Ashe and by pass their healing. The Icevale Archer actually by passes spell shield against stuff like Aurelion Sol which ends up mattering a lot in various situations.

*A ton of of their units don't really care too much about Hush except Ashe herself and that's the only unit you need to take care for when it comes to Hush. Generally matches up well against Daybreak units due to Frostbite and matching them in beef.

*Troll Chant does a lot of work in this deck and I replaced Elixir of Iron for it. In many cases it can put enemy units in Culling Strike range or 0 attack for Ashe for another way to enable her unblockable attack.

*Already countered the Demacia/Elusive decks with tons of Frostbites. One of the best ways to counter Lulu decks in fact. The only issue is dealing with the unit Lulu supports because its a 4/4 and that can't be Brittle'd or Culling Striked but Lulu herself is easy to kill/shut down.

*Puts enough pressure and big bodies against Ezrael decks to make run out of removals.

*Heavily counters Taric decks obviously.


I think the combination of people getting sick and tired of playing that deck in the previous patch and the nerf to Trifarian Assessor meant that people abandoned the deck but it's still very strong. Trifarian Assessor now feels fine as a card but can still high roll. I am running her with Hearthguards so that if I draw her I can always guarantee some value from her.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,035


The 1 hour epic game with Swim.

I was practically screaming at the monitor when he spent a minute thinking whether he should Pilfered Goods towards the end but decides not to since the opponent should have 3 non-champions in the deck. I think Swim definitely overthinks situations sometimes and tries to be way too cute with the plays.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
I was practically screaming at the monitor when he spent a minute thinking whether he should Pilfered Goods towards the end but decides not to since the opponent should have 3 non-champions in the deck. I think Swim definitely overthinks situations sometimes and tries to be way too cute with the plays.
I think he was under the impression that the champions were in his hand versus the bottom of the deck and was waiting for him to play Asol to them Pilfer. When Asol wasn't played he knew it was still in the deck so he could then pilfer. He basically wanted to reduce the amount of times Asol would stick on the board before dying to mill. I think in the end the other player never drew his 3rd Asol just like Swim didn't drew his Ezrael.

I think he also miscalculated how many Leona had been played until he went back to check in the logs. Pilfer drawing from the bottom of the deck actually came in super clutch for Swim there but the real clutch was getting 3 Vengeances lol.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,035
Let me introduce you to a player named Lifecoach

I think it's fine to overthink during tournaments, that's when it matters most
The issue is overthinking very specific aspects while ignoring others. Like in this case he was laser focused on Ezreal while ignoring that he had at least 3 nab cards still in his deck. And relying on the nab the following turn ignores that the opponent's deck has a lot of daybreak.

edit: Rewatching it, it gets even worse. He's still on the Ezreal train the following turn, possibly throwing away a nab to get 1 more look at Ezreal. That also overextends to Wail, almost losing the game.

I think he was under the impression that the champions were in his hand versus the bottom of the deck and was waiting for him to play Asol to them Pilfer. When Asol wasn't played he knew it was still in the deck so he could then pilfer. He basically wanted to reduce the amount of times Asol would stick on the board before dying to mill. I think in the end the other player never drew his 3rd Asol just like Swim didn't drew his Ezrael.

I think he also miscalculated how many Leona had been played until he went back to check in the logs. Pilfer drawing from the bottom of the deck actually came in super clutch for Swim there but the real clutch was getting 3 Vengeances lol.
Swim made the correct read that the deck was 2 champions and 3 other cards. Not Pilfering is an insanely greedy conclusion though, only working out if you topdeck exactly Ezreal (and even then the damage might not matter) and was punished heavily by drawing Merchant and Priestess.

Delaying Asol is not a thing there. Pilfering a 5 card deck with 2 champions never changes the top card.
 
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Greenlock

Member
Oct 3, 2018
69
Played a bit yesterday and today and managed to hit gold after a win streak. Found a Lulu deck that Alanzq made with Shen and modified it slightly. After playing it in normal a while I brought it into ranked and oh boy does it work, at my rank anyway. It can have really aggressive openings and still manage swing turns later on if you get behind on development. Challenger, support and rally can lead to some truly awesome turns.
 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,430
I'm waving the white flag. Already had my problems with the game, but Invoke kills this game for good for me. Games drag on way too much now.

This made sense in Hearthstone, where you already twiddling your thumbs anyway and things are more spread out, but having to play against a whole archetype is just boring and wastes my precious time.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
I personally am really enjoying the expansion especially the longer average length of games. A lot of previously never used cards before are seeing play now. Yesterday I got hit by She Who Wonders, I had forgotten that card existed! There are still various aggressive decks online that can end the game quick which punishes the super greedy deck builds. It's still a bit frustrating getting hit by the 6 mana Obliterate card but you just sort of assume that if they Invoke, they are on that card. Every Invoke option is a slow response except that 0 mana ramp effect from Spacey. All of the new champions and archetypes they have put out have been playable to strong, yes even Nocturne and Nightfall (coming around to the card a bit now).

I think Riot should be happy with the expansion but I think they need to address Expeditions asap. We know a balance patch is coming in 2.5 weeks so we don't have to worry about the meta getting stale or anything. Still seeing too many different decks on ladder with various tweaks to call certain decks too over powered.

www.swimstrim.com

Runeterra Decks and Meta


Interesting that Swim has removed the Ezrael Targon "super broken S tier" deck from Tier 1. As soon as he debuted the deck, the deck had flaws including getting rushed down from wide boards. I also see he put in a They Who Endure list in there but I think this deck has cut They Who Endure and gone for more aggressive build so its most likely an outdated deck. Also interesting that the top 3 decks don't even use Invoke mechanics, they are simply decks that were top tier before this expansion. It's very likely that people see this list and realize "wait if those decks are still good, why don't I just bring back Ashe Noxus as well?"
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
You guys should post Expedition decks.

Last time I tried picking Deep cards I got nothing but trashy pirates, fizz friends and those 4/4 dicks. Ain't no big serpent, ain't no ship serpent, had like one of the elusive and obliterate fish each.

You just... kind of get fucked by the RNG if you commit to something that requires combo stuff and you don't get it. The frequency of good Daybreak/Invoke cards is so high that it is a super safe pick. You know you will get early game power with Daybreak, and you will get late game power with Invoke.

I don't know how you out-pressure it, the 3/6 guy is a brick wall that stops even a turn 5 offense. Priestess gives the 4 + 1 damage spell, or twins, or comet, something that helps you depending on where you at in the game. Leona delays the turn, and then 5/5 daddy. Sometimes you also get the 1-drop 3/3, so... don't know what kind of things you need to spawn to beat Daybreak early. I am 6, 7, 6 using Targon this week.

I like the current Labs mode, but it already getting old. I wish they were on the weekly rotations instead of... 3 weeks per mode?

I like the Expansion. I think the Pirate Expansion accelerated the game too much, and was rightfully nerfed. I think the opposite is happening right now: the Expansion is slowing down the game too much, and will be tuned. I like supporty and rampy playstyles introduced, those were really underdeveloped before. I don't like Invoke, I think it is by far the most powerful cards that rely on RNG conjuring which doesn't feel right for the competitive pvp game.

Missing the Event is a huge blow to my interest in the game. For the Europeasants like me, it doesn't feel like we are in the new expansion when it comes to cosmetics: most people have either stock shit or Blossom event things. The "festivity" side of the Expansion is seriously lacking.
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
You pretty much have to commit to open attacking and developing on their turns against Targon. That applies to both Constructed and Expedition. They also lack any type of reach and over the top. They are just naturally OP for Expedition but for Constructed they will be around same level as most other regions. You can already see the best players starting to play around the Targon cards well.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,678
Yeah sometimes you miss on not getting the sea monsters when going for Deep in expeditions. My latest one started up with 2 sea monsters and Nocturne in the initial draft, but by the end of it, I think I had like 6-8 sea monsters. Sometimes you want to pick okay cards from your same theme just to increase the chances of getting the right cards from the theme later.

There's more information here.
  • Wild Pick Bonus Chance: This is another tuning value that allows us to increase the frequency with which you'll see an archetype during your Wild Picks, but only during drafts where it's your primary archetype. So for an archetype like Shroom and Boom that's dependent on having plenty of mushroom-related cards to end up with a synergistic deck, taking a couple packs from it early will ensure you'll see lots more of them throughout the draft.
runeterraccg.com

All Cards and Archetypes of The Rising Tides Expansion • Expeditions • Legends of Runeterra (LoR) • RuneterraCCG.com

(UPDATED FOR PATCH 1.5) Currently there are a total of 32 supported archetypes in Expeditions mode. Click to see the complete list of all the archetypes and the cards that belong to their respective 'seeding packs'.

And yeah, you really want to hit the open attacks against Targon. I think most people aren't still used to playing with and playing against Targon which makes the constructed meta feel a bit lethargic right now. Targon can drag out games effectively, but if you're not focused on finishing the game, then you'll just end up playing long draggy games. I've been playing a good amount of a tweaked version of the day and night deck on swim's site, and I know I have to fish for big celestials ASAP to beat ASol, sometimes it works, sometimes your invokes just whiffs.

Burst speed Hush is a bit too good against combo aggressive decks as well, spellshield doesn't even stop it when it doesn't fizzle and you can just immediately cast it again. Once they nerf hush the tempo of the game should become faster.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Interesting that Swim has removed the Ezrael Targon "super broken S tier" deck from Tier 1. As soon as he debuted the deck, the deck had flaws including getting rushed down from wide boards. I also see he put in a They Who Endure list in there but I think this deck has cut They Who Endure and gone for more aggressive build so its most likely an outdated deck. Also interesting that the top 3 decks don't even use Invoke mechanics, they are simply decks that were top tier before this expansion. It's very likely that people see this list and realize "wait if those decks are still good, why don't I just bring back Ashe Noxus as well?"
Swim's has made it pretty clear that his tier list is in flux and he doesn't have the ability to test every single deck thoroughly within the launch week of the expansion. It's also made in consultation with other top players so it's not all his call, sometimes he hasn't seen enough of a deck and has to go on other players opinions.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,678
Oh a Nocturne deck made it to swim's t1.

Edit: Swain decks are so hilariously helpless against silences on Leviathan. I guess why purify didn't come up before was because Demacia didn't want to play at such a slow speed while that speed is natural fit for Targon. As long invokes are in, I think Swain decks will be T2 at best. Otherwise they will need to speed up and not rely on Leviathan as much.
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Oh a Nocturne deck made it to swim's t1.

Edit: Swain decks are so hilariously helpless against silences on Leviathan. I guess why purify didn't come up before was because Demacia didn't want to play at such a slow speed while that speed is natural fit for Targon. As long invokes are in, I think Swain decks will be T2 at best. Otherwise they will need to speed up and not rely on Leviathan as much.
Silences on Leviathan don't matter that much as you only care for the end of turn effect. Silence does effect Swain a ton and Obliterate removals impact both Leviathan and Swain greatly especially that Obliterate two Celestial card. Not only that but the Twin dragon is a big stopper against the Lev combo.

Swim's has made it pretty clear that his tier list is in flux and he doesn't have the ability to test every single deck thoroughly within the launch week of the expansion. It's also made in consultation with other top players so it's not all his call, sometimes he hasn't seen enough of a deck and has to go on other players opinions.
Yeah I know, I usually watch his streams and both him and Precipic (who's deck is the one that is on the tier list) were fairly down on TWE in the Tempo SI deck. So that's why I was surprised that made the list. Obviously it's a work in progress but it's a good look in time at the perspective of a top player. The lists are also useful to know so you can be better equipped against what you see online.

Edit: Actually I just saw the tier list again and he placed that Nocturne deck in it just now! Also I sort of disagree that the Nocturne deck is an Aggro deck. I think that's the trap that people have fallen into when trying to play with the Nocturne deck early on, they try to play it as a fast deck when it's more of a set up/tempo deck. It's also a very hard deck to play as well, it reminds me of Tempo Rogue decks from Hearthstone and Rogue has always been a hard class to play with relative to other classses.

Also if this tier list pans out then it's going to be hilarious looking back at the card reviews lol!
 
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Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,678
I'm not talking about Hush, but the one mana silence celestial card. I've decked out a Swain deck playing the night and day deck. In fact the silence is great against the infinite mindsplitter as well, one mana to make the 8 mana cards sitting bricks.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
I'm not talking about Hush, but the one mana silence celestial card. I've decked out a Swain deck playing the night and day deck. In fact the silence is great against the infinite mindsplitter as well, one mana to make the 8 mana cards sitting bricks.
Oh right that card, yeah that one is a bummer too lol.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,574
I don't know how you out-pressure it, the 3/6 guy is a brick wall that stops even a turn 5 offense. Priestess gives the 4 + 1 damage spell, or twins, or comet, something that helps you depending on where you at in the game. Leona delays the turn, and then 5/5 daddy. Sometimes you also get the 1-drop 3/3, so... don't know what kind of things you need to spawn to beat Daybreak early. I am 6, 7, 6 using Targon this week.
Fighting for board vs Targon is easy in Expeditions. Their early game followers are either vanilla 2/2s and 3/2s or even worse statted invoke cards. You always let them hit you in the face with the beefy Daybreak dudes. Targon has no burn, so it's really not a big deal. You are not afraid to take advantageous trades because they have no 1 dmg ping. No, the 5m 4/1 spell does not count as efficient removal and is not something you should account for the earlygame. You will get ahead early with your superior followers and always open attack on t4 onwards if they have Leona in the deck.

The flow is simple. On their attack turn: if you are already ahead on tempo, they are forced to play a card. If they pass, you can develop if that will snowball you the win or you can pass and open attack if you have enough stats on the board to run over theirs. Honestly, their only way to punish your develop is with those two Celestial removal spells or Sunburst, but guess what, they spend just as much mana (OR MORE) on the spell as you did on the unit. Targon's weakness is that their only units worth a damn cost 4m or more. Which means they either tap out of any Celestial removal so you're safe to dump your mana on bigger units OR they play more shit stat minions that are good for one turn only, which you can pretty much ignore. Take a "gamechanger" card like Leona. She's usually tapping them out in the midgame to play. If you open attack, she does nothing on play. If she is played on their attack turn, she only represents 3 face damage. Let her have it.

On your attack turn: Open attack open attack open attack. There are no burst or fast Daybreak cards and their only combat trick is Pale Cascade, which is only a +1 hp buff, robs them of the Nightfall effect AND denies them their own Daybreak for the turn. I know it's easy to just say open attack, but that's why making sure your board is advantageous at the end of their turn is so important.

The 4/1 spell is honestly not even that good. How many units are core build arounds that die to 4 damage, but not 3? I can think of Maokai and Neverglade. And they paid 5m for it. And they pass initiative for it. Plus they played a 3m 1/2 to draw it. AND spells are reactionary, so a 5m spell should have WAY more value than trading pretty evenly. With this style of play, the Sisters is the only card that I am hard pressed to have an answer for.

Playing against Targon is kind of the opposite of playing against Bilgewater, but that makes it counter-intuitive for some people. Against Bilgewater, sometimes you're willing to take unfavorable trades if it means protecting your face from plunder effects. Against Targon, you are fully free to use your health as a resource to make sure you only take the most favorable trades against their weak/vanilla followers. Targon is also way too "honest" of a region, making you pretty confident of your trading on defense, only needing to account for +1HP buffs most of the time.

In my last three 7-win runs, I used Shadow Isles for Fearsome to ignore their units twice and Noxus to just value trade them repeatedly. My last SI deck was honestly a mish mash of Fearsome and removal, with two Nocturnes that were the ONLY Nightfall cards in the deck. I lost every non-Targon matchup because the deck was hot garbo. But it worked against Targon because I was able to go face on my turns and trade my 1m 2/1 for up to their 3m units on defense.

I can see Demacia and Freljord working for the same reasons as Noxus, eking out those value trades. I can see PZ having trouble since you DON'T want to trade removal for their units 1-1, you want to force favorable trades always. Same for Bilgewater to a lesser extent and same goes for Ionia if you're not doing elusives.